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  1. #1
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    Default Fighter 14 / Paladin 6 Build - feedback requested

    Hi,

    So I know that this build has probably been done a 100 times and there are other ways to achieve the same results (perhaps even better ways) but the difference is this is my build, I used only the Character Planner, DDO Wiki and my own limited knowledge of the game - without using other builds as a reference.

    I'm a poor builder and wanted to get back to basics and solidify my knowledge of basic concepts so my other builds wont suck as much.

    So be kind.

    The goal was to make a first life 32 point Kensei THF Fighter build with no premium classes or races or tomes.

    I went pure fighter at first and there were some weaknesses to the build; No self healing, poor saves and lack luster capstone (I focused on Tactics)

    So I tried to address these issues> I thought long and hard about going with a rogue splash for evasion and UMD scroll healing+ A Paladin Splash for better saves but decided to try a deeper Paladin splash for healing through Lay on Hands, Unyielding Sovereignty and a CLW backup spell.

    I front loaded the Human Dragonmark of Passage to make life easier when leveling ( Expeditious Retreat, DD and Teleport) plus the 30% Healing Amp.

    I punted on the skills, thinking at first to just throw my 2 points into Jump and Balance but after adding in the Paladin levels I struggled with adding points to Heal - so some advice there is needed. The level split was to be balanced as I level and front loading the Dragonmark, healing amp, and extra Lay on hands as early as possible, plus to open Unyielding Sovereignty in the low mid levels. The last few levels is dealer choice and I could use some advice here.

    Hopefully I made a solid Kensei fighter up to power surge, with descent saves and usable self healing.
    I also punted on the name going with the name of the enhancement lines I used - but it might not fit.

    So here goes, The Sacred Kensei Knight

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    
    Sacred Kensei Knight
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
    (14 Fighter \ 6 Paladin) 
    Hit Points: 280
    Spell Points: 50 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 20
    Reflex: 10
    Will: 10
    
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
    Strength             18                 23                   23
    Dexterity            10                 10                   10
    Constitution         14                 14                   14
    Intelligence          8                  8                    8
    Wisdom               10                 10                   10
    Charisma             14                 14                   16
    
    
    Level 1 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Least Dragonmark of Passage
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    
    
    Level 4 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    
    
    Level 5 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Child of the Sovereign Host
    
    
    
    
    Level 7 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    
    
    Level 8 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    
    
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    
    
    Level 13 (Fighter)
    
    
    
    
    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    
    
    Level 15 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    
    
    Level 16 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    
    
    Level 17 (Fighter)
    
    
    
    
    Level 18 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Slicing Blow
    
    
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    
    
    
    
    Level 20 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Sap
    Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Charisma (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Attack Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Orien Dragonmark Focus (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Orien Dragonmark Focus (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Human - Orien Dragonmark Focus (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Lesser Dragonmark of Passage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Human - Greater Dragonmark of Passage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Saves Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Saves Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Saves Boost (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Weapon Meditation (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Weapon Meditation (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Shattering Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Deadly Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Remove Disease (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Attack Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Attack Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Charisma (Rank 1)

    Thanks for looking and any feedback is appreciated

    MacR

  2. #2
    Community Member Zakan's Avatar
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    Default Divine Might?

    I looked through your enhancements and didn't see Divine Might, a Knight of the Chalice 2nd tier enhancement. Its a really great enhancement, it gives you your Charisma modifier to your Strength score. So, if you get a 30 Charisma (+10 modifier), you can activate the ability to get a +10 Strength. This ability uses Turn Undead, so I would recommend getting more turn attempts from the Knight of the Chalice enhancements also. You could perhaps replace the attack boosts with the extra turn attempts?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakan View Post
    I looked through your enhancements and didn't see Divine Might, a Knight of the Chalice 2nd tier enhancement. Its a really great enhancement, it gives you your Charisma modifier to your Strength score. So, if you get a 30 Charisma (+10 modifier), you can activate the ability to get a +10 Strength. This ability uses Turn Undead, so I would recommend getting more turn attempts from the Knight of the Chalice enhancements also. You could perhaps replace the attack boosts with the extra turn attempts?

    Thanks for the feed back - I didnt know if my Charisma would get high enough to provide any real bonus over the strength bonus... unless of course it stacks?- but I did rework the enhancements a bit to include your advice.



    Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Orien Dragonmark Focus (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Orien Dragonmark Focus (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Human - Orien Dragonmark Focus (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Lesser Dragonmark of Passage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Human - Greater Dragonmark of Passage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)


    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Saves Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Saves Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Saves Boost (Rank 3)


    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - A Good Death (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)


    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 3)


    I also should mention that this build is purely academic, I don't plan to roll or play it... I'm just trying to get some advice on beginning building.
    I appreciate the input and welcome more...

    Thx
    MacR
    Last edited by MacRighteous; 07-22-2014 at 12:28 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Divine might allows you to add your charisma modifier to your overal str score via an insight bonus. Its absolutely worth picking up.

    As for your skills priority reads like this : UMD > Heal > 1tumble > everything else.

    As I pointed out in your last thread, I think you are over valuing the extra feat you get from fighter levels 13 & 14.

    I don't think 1 more feat is worth the options you're giving up from a 2 level splash, specifically:
    2monk = 2 more feats, 4 dodge & evasion
    2rogue = umd & evasion

    I also think you're over valuing the paladin defensive stance. The benefits from the stance aren't that great in heroic content, provided you work in a means of self healing, eg. umd'ing heal scrolls.

    I don't want this to come across as mean, but by frontloading your 6 paladin levels, and picking up 13th/14th fighter levels you've got a build that would be much harder to level than a 12/6/2 and in epic levels it'd end up having less dps, less survivability, and/or less versatility. I don't mean on paper either, I mean quite noticeable differences.

    1rogue>3paladin>8fighter>1rogue>4fighter>3paladin : this build would be easier to level, immune to fear early, evasion by the teens, potential to no fail a heal scroll from level 9+,
    1monk>3paladin>8fighter>1monk>4fighter>3paladin : this build will be a little harder to level than the rogue variant, but will centered in earth stance, get +1 crit mulitplier, good prr, access to 28dodge, it's the better build option that scales well into epics.

    Depending on your playstyle your build may be sufficient, but I envisage a 12fighter/6paladin/2x build running round cleaving with a 2handed weapon, centred in earth stance with similar prr to what you could achieve in heavy armor & a shield, but dishing out much much more damage.

    That said, all my comments are based on the game as it stands now. Soon there will be changes coming to armor and shields that will mix things up a lot. Evasion may be less important, possibly even less desired than heavy armor. Most likely though it will simply mean a different 2 level splash becomes more appealing.
    Last edited by fTdOmen; 07-22-2014 at 01:38 AM.

  5. #5

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    I just took a glance, but have some thoughts on your feat order:

    The THF line is best pushed back to very late because it has no real psychological value. You know you're doing more glancing blow damage, but you don't feel it. So take the line, sure, but take it late.

    Conversely, take great cleave immediately. I would suggest putting a fighter level that grants a bonus feat at level 4 specifically so you can take great cleave the moment you get 4 BAB. In other words, take either your first or second fighter level at 4, and take great cleave with that bonus feat.

    Empower Healing Spell won't do you much good (if any) until you reach 20 and can twist in cocoon, so I would push that back until 18. With only 6 paladin levels you only get Cure Light Wounds, and even with Empower Healing Spell and a solid devotion item you'll still get way too many casts that give back single-digit hit points. I wouldn't recommend using any metamagic on Cure Light Wounds, pretty much ever. (Unless it's an SLA.) Note that Lay On Hands cannot be boosted by metamagics.

    I'd rather have stunning blow than slicing blow.

    Sap is great for soloing, but less useful in groups. I'd rather have Precision. (And I recently made this change to the Tempest Trapmonkey build.)

    Are you planning on heavy armor? If not -- I recommend scaling fighter back to 12 levels to fit in 2 rogue or 2 monk -- then you might want Dodge.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRighteous View Post
    Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Orien Dragonmark Focus (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Lesser Dragonmark of Passage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Human - Greater Dragonmark of Passage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Great Weapon Aptitude is weak. I'd put that 3 AP elsewhere. Namely, +1 Strength and Saves boost (or Skills boost for UMD) from the cores. Saves boost is nice if you can manage good saves because you don't auto-fail on a 1. You could take both saves and skills, while keeping damage, if you also take +1 con. That would require pulling some AP from another tree. Speaking of which...

    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Saves Boost (Rank 3)
    Saves boost costs 6 AP in this tree, or 1 AP in the human tree. Granted it's +6 here vs +4 in the human tree, but come on, 6 AP compared to 1 AP?! hehheh.

    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - A Good Death (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)
    I would move the 6 AP spent on seeker +3 (kind of weak for 6 AP) into Tactics III (instead of II) and +2 strength. Otherwise looks good.

    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 3)
    Seems a shame to spend 20 AP in the KotC tree and not at least get +2d6 damage vs evil from the cores. However, this tree allocation is pretty tight. No complaints.

    EDIT: You left 20 healing amp untaken; any healing amp left on the table always hurts. I'd probably take the 6 AP from the sacred defender tree (saves boost) and put 4 AP toward 20% amp in KotC, then 2 AP on free Ghost Touch from the KotC cores. For human I'd go with damage, strength, saves as the three cores, dropping the THF line. Then do the listed changes in the Kensei tree and call it good.

    All in all a pretty solid job choosing enhancements. The real trick is how to order them. At least for me, that's where the real fun begins.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery DethTrip's Avatar
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    Trust me when I say you want evasion. Not only for traps but for spells and other things that hurt you like exploding barrels and such. I would take a look at some other builds similar to what you are trying here and ask some questions and do some reading here and on the wiki. It's very easy to make a build that is not much fun to play because one of the main things you want in a build is missing. Offense, defense or self sufficiency. Like sports, if one aspect is sub par the others suffer as well. If your offense is sub par, then you don't kill stuff fast enough and you take more damage, use more resources and the quests drag on. If your defense is sub par, then you take damage too quickly and spend your time healing and running away instead of killing. If your self sufficiency is sub par, then you have to either bring a hire to heal you or beg others for help. I just did a barbarian life and it sucked because of the lack of self sufficiency. Look at how to adjust the build to provide an adequate amount of each thing. If you don't know how to do that, then try some other respected builds on here and play for awhile and then you will start learning more in depth about how the game works in practice and what you like and don't like. Have fun!
    If you're having fun, then you're doing it right.

  8. #8
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethTrip View Post
    Trust me when I say you want evasion.
    I strongly disagree with this. Evasion is not necessary and, in fact, not practical with some builds.

    I have two epic level characters -- one L28 the other L26 -- using a similar 14/6 breakdown and combining fighter and paladin as their only classes. Neither has evasion and I do not wish that either did.

    Personally, I split the classes 14 paladin and 6 fighter rather than the other way. However, I can see the argument for going with the split as you have. The biggest advantage of paladin as the larger class is the access to spells. The characters are nearly self sufficient when it comes to healing without needing to rely on Yugoloth favor. By "nearly" I mean that in most quests they are self sufficient but there are times, particularly in newer content, when a helping hand is still needed/appreciated.

    Instead of evasion the characters rely on a) party mix to deal with problems like traps and spell casters, b) high saving throws for times when the party mix is not available, and c) high AC/PRR/HP with maximum dodge, concealment and incorporeal numbers to avoid/mitigate damage.

  9. #9
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    Just a quick comment before heading to work...

    Thanks for taking the time to help educate me EllisDee37 - that is what this exercise is about.

    fTdOmen: I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring your suggestions.. I'm not and already I'm working on a alternative to this build using a rogue splash for evasion and UMD. The thing is that I'm still stuck on building 101 and I consider your build choices at least building 202 - I'm trying to get back to the basics and understand the trade offs and choices so when I get to 202 or 303 so I have a good solid understanding of why these other choices are of more value. A good example of this is Divine Might... I thought that it took your Charisma bonus and substituted it for your Strength bonus... It wasn't until this thread that It became clear to me that it takes your Charisma bonus and adds it to your Strength score... so it is effectively like a Strength buff like Roc strength or something... I think that there are many little things like this that I missing or wrong about - and this is an attempt to smoke those misconceptions out...

    Also since I haven't yet taking a toon to 20 and have never ran epics I am mostly interested in building for heroic levels which means mainly Heroic Hard and an occasional Heroic Elite - so I am ignoring EDs and Epic levels for now.

    So already I have started with a pure fighter - found its weakness - tried to address it with multiclassing and have came up with several approaches, weeding it down to the better choice...

    I think Ive learned more by following this approach then just blindly following a 303 build on the forums...

    Thanks And I look forward to any other suggestions to help make this choice the best it can be - so I have a solid build to compare my next attempt to make a fighter Kensei.

    What did I get right with this build?

    Thx
    MacR

  10. #10
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Hello-

    I have a first life build similar to what you are talking about - it is LV 22 now and working well...

    12 Kensei Fighter / 6 KoTC / 2 Rogue-

    12 Kensi Fighter
    + 8 STR Power Surge
    + 3 DC to tactics
    7 bonus fighter feats

    6 Paladin
    Stun + Smite + DS = fun!
    +2 to hit/+2 dam with Divine Favor Spell (spell - clicky)
    Divine Righteous to allow for back up tanking hate generation
    Healing Wand Usage
    Better saves with CHR bounus

    2 Rogue
    Open locks & UMD
    Evasion
    1d6+3 sneak attack

    Stunning Blow followed by a Smite & Divine Sacrifice is a lot of fun!

    In regards to race – I had a hard time choosing between a Human duel Bastard Sword and a Dwarf duel Dwarf-axe user.
    With the fortification increasing of high level mobs, I chose the larger base damage vs. the higher crit range of Khopesh.
    Both (Daxe and BSword) are 2D8 with greensteel vs. Khopesh's 1D10.
    If I didn’t care about the stunning – the extra skill points and healing amp would have lead to Human,
    but the Dwarven racial enchantment to combat feats, I decided to go Dwarf.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRighteous View Post
    fTdOmen: <snip>
    Also since I haven't yet taking a toon to 20 and have never ran epics I am mostly interested in building for heroic levels which means mainly Heroic Hard and an occasional Heroic Elite - so I am ignoring EDs and Epic levels for now.

    So already I have started with a pure fighter - found its weakness - tried to address it with multiclassing and have came up with several approaches, weeding it down to the better choice...

    What did I get right with this build?

    Thx
    MacR
    It's fine, I'm not great at teaching, I've been building so long now and can just see synergies in a build these days that I've completely forgotten what it was like when I was new to d&d and DDO 5 years ago.

    I'll try point out what you've done right & then what you've done wrong, esecpially focusing on heroic levels:
    Right:
    Overall you have a fairly good feat selection. (you picked up cleaves, 2hf and improved crit)
    You're asking the right questions, and you're considering optimal leveling order.
    You've selected a good cut off point for paladin levels.
    Your first round of enhancements selections seems fairly good.

    Imo not right:
    14 fighter levels, imo if by the time you've reached 12 fighter levels and you don't have enough feats in your build to reach your goal, you need to re-evaluate your goal.
    you have 6 paladin levels, which provides access to the defensive stance, but you do not have the defensive stance, or the good abilities to be gained from it.
    hoping to rely on cure light wounds spell / lay on hands / unyielding sov for healing.
    Starting stats, You should have dumped wisdom, items count towards qualifying for spells, 10int would be more useful allowing you to pick up umd, heal, concentration, intimidate.
    your feat / leveling order prioritization.

    Given that by your own words you have not reached level 20 or epic levels before, you seem to have a a fairly good idea of what your building towards. My biggest concern is that you don't realize how much damage, ac & prr scales as levels increase.

    I'll try point out what I'm seeing in your build in depth:
    Even though you have access to the defensive stance, your build has no shield mastery feats, without shield mastery feats & bastard sword or dwarven axe proficiency (those particular weapons are almost a 2handed weapon when used in conjunction with a shield) you do not have a "tanking mode" that will be sufficient for the higher levels of content. That is why when I look at this build with high saves and the 2 handed fighting feats I see "it needs evasion", I know you're not planning on reaching the highest hardest content any time soon, but because tanking isn't an option, I think you either need to shift your build focus slightly to allow it, or commit to light armors and splash for evasion.

    Your feat priority:
    As Ellisdee mentioned (and as I pointed out to him ages ago) Cleaves are a very very front loaded ability that will provide a noticeable & scaling boost to aoe dps from the moment you get them. The two handed fighting feats on the otherhand provide a small boost to dps & it's not until you get greater two handed fighting which provides an extra glancing blow per attack chain that you are likely to notice or see the difference.

    When you reach your 8th fighter level, you will be able to qualify for Keen Edge. Critting more often is fairly noticeable and should provide a noticeable boost to dps, it is for this reason I would try advocate to prioritise your feats such as : Powerattack & Cleaves > Improved critical > Kensai Pre reqs > Dodge (if you go light armor) > Two handed fighting feat chain. (note if you ever get a single or two weapon fighting build they have different feat priorities)

    Slicing Blow, by the time you reach level 18, almost all monsters are going to have over 1000hp, and the measly con penalty / damage that slicing blow dishes out will not be noticeable, If you were to splash 2 rogue levels you lose one feat, from your list of feats this would definately be the first feat I would eliminate from my list. If you stay with fighter levels, swap this for Stunning Blow.

    Greater weapon spec, I know it's an extra +1 damage per swing, but your build as it's laid out currently has no defensive feats at all, I would swap this feat for dodge. Dodge provides a 3% chance to avoid being hit alltogether, and it opens up enhancements to provide an extra 3% chance to avoid being hit from the Kensai tree, ie, it's a feat that can provide up to a 6% reduction in damage taken.

    Enhancements:
    You've glossed over the KOTC healing amps, healing amps all stack multiplicitavely, In your shoes I'd consider only picking up tiers 1&2 of human healing amp and make sure to pick up the healing amp in KOTC tiers 3 & 4, it will cost less AP, and give you 46.4% healing amp instead of 33.1%. see here and wiki

    Rather than picking up Saves boost for +6 saving throws, you could also invest in Sacred Defensive Stance, having a permanent toggle that gives 25prr and +3 saving throws imo is better than a +6 saves action boost. The stance gives an automatic +10PRR, (3ap) Sacred Defense gives +15PRR, and (3ap) Resiliient Defense gives +3 to saves.

    Critical Accuracy/critical damage in the kensai tree is far to expensive for the bonus it provides you (6ap to get +3 damage per crit), I'd scrap that completely and spend those 6 points on improved dodge.

    Healing: (warning long)
    Code:
    Empower healing is a great feat for epic levels & heroic clerics, but it's not so much so on a build like yours.
    Cure light wounds: base sp cost = 6
    base healing as a level 6 pally = 1d6+2 +5 = 3.5+2+5 average = 11 points average per cast (rounded up) before meta magics and healing amp.
    I'll be generous and give you 23base+4gh+15item+4wis mod points in the heal skill = 46 spell power
    You've also picked up 10ap in sacred defender which provides you an extra 10 positive spell power, net total now is 56 spell power. (ie 56% boost to cure light wounds)
    I'll add 90spell power from a potency / devotion / augment crystal = 146spell power
    
    11 * 2.46 = 27 points of healing per 6 spell point cast
    
    Your healing amp is 33.1% due to how healing amp scales. 
    27 * 1.331 = 35 points of healing average per cast.
    
    If you added empower heal:
    11 points of healing per 6 point cast
    empower heal costs 10 sp for an extra 75% positive spell power:
    new spell power total is 146% + 75% = 221%
    
    11 * 3.21 = 35 points on average for 16spell points
    factoring in healing amp:
    35 * 1.331 = 46 points per 16 point cast.
    
    Even with wizardry items you're only going to have ~200sp though, so 200 / 16 = 12casts per rest, 46 * 12 = 552 points of healing per shrine from cures.  Thats most likely going to be insufficient healing by Gianthold.
    
    Comparison with Cure Serious Wounds Potion
    3d6 +6 = 16 points of healing on average:
    
    16 * 1.331 (healing amp) = 21 points of healing per CSW potion.
    
    Lay on hands will be 16 * cha mod, (14base +6 item, +4tome +2 ship buff =8 mod)
    16 * 8 = 128 points of healing
    128 * 1.331 (healing amp) = 170 points per loh, 4  per rest.
    The lay on hands is ok, but essentially it's going to be the same as a heal scroll:
    heal scroll = 125 points of healing * 1.331 = 166 points of healing per scroll.

    A cure serious wounds potion would essentially match your empowered clw spell (you are not very likely going to match the favorable CLW conditions I've allowed for), and a heal scroll would match your lay on hands. Granted LOH is instant, but 2 rogue opens up evasion which would likely mean you need to heal less often. Hopefully this explains why with only 6 paladin levels you will not be able to sustainably self heal in heroics (probably from 12+ on elite)

    Hope this kind of helps, lunch break is almost up so I've been cut short.

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