The Meteor Shower: 12Monk/5Wizard/3Rogue Shuriken Insanity

[EllisDee37]

70

2 ship
2 yugo
2 store
76

3 epic feat (+1)
6 ed
3 twist
6 tome (+1)
89 Total Dex.

76 + 1 + 6 + 3 + 1 = 87, not 89.

[maddong]

I'm curious is the cap at 84 attacks per minute regardless of whether you take rapid shot/quick draw?

Is the base attack rate for BAB 25 the same as for BAB 28 (you used to get faster with every BAB increase but that data was before they moved 4th attack to BAB 3)?

I wonder if 84 attacks is some % times the BAB 0 no feat thrown weapon rate....
I wonder if every weapon style is capped at that same % times the BAB 0 attack rate....

Someone on Lamannia could test it out with crossbows: BAB 28, rapid shot, rapid reload ?= quick draw, GSWF (30% enh until it gets fixed) + haste boost (30%) = whirling wrists, and blinding speed for the same base?

You might be able to reach a cap with wolf form? Wolf form using GSWF, blinding speed, and haste boost?

Great build by the way!

[domandi]

76 + 1 + 6 + 3 + 1 = 87, not 89.

Oh, sorry bout that. Like I said, I just kinda copied it from another thread, was too lazy to do all the additional math. Thanks for the clarification.

[Luskacik]

I have been running a shuriken build for a long while (just never bothered to put it up here :-D) and ended up favoring 12 monk / 4 rogue / 4 ranger as the highest DPS with petty much the same defense as pure monk (little less run speed but still enough, same AC, uncanny dodge) + full rogue skills which is a great thing to have. I dismissed all the 11-12 wizard nonsense, tensored reconstruct sucks and you lose any working AC, lot of dodge and DPS. This perma tenser idea at least got me thinking though.

Thing is, ranger is fantastic, it gives rapid shot and precise shot for free and feats are very tight for shuri builds, ranger allows me to take halfling and not lose any essential feat, your build loses 1 more feat the moment it goes halfling when they fix the crit range, doesn't have grandmaster stance or deflect arrows which is awesome, etc. Best part thought is that deepwood stalker gives you 10 extra meters of sneak attack range, especially on a sneak heavy build as yours (even more in you go SD ED) that is a huge thing, as often you range from afar and the basic range is not enough, not even that elf or mechanic, I found that 5 meter from mechanic and 10 from DwS is juuust about OK for consistent SA, though still I would like to get 5 more from somewhere, often I still am out of range, and you know well how much dmg that is, 60-80 SA dmg depending on ED. At least for me it feels like without decent sneak range one doesn't even have to bother with working on SA dmg, not true of course, on close range it still works and most bosses will be, but it's just not consistent enough to invest heavily in it. DwS also gives 3 sneak dice on top of that 10 meter range increase, all that for 6 AP!!! Also ram's might for extra 2 dmg is not nothing either.
Plus, going rogue 4 give me no mercy 1 AP cheaper than the silly ninja one :-) and uncanny dodge for some more dodge and extra boost when things get hot.

What wizard 5 gives, displacement haste etc. aside, is that perma tenser. It's great and nice and **** I wish i had it, don't get me wrong, just thinking about it is exciting :-) but especially with this thrown speed cap ****, the full BAB is kinda lessened, if you have WW and haste/wind stance/something you are pretty much at cap throwing speed even at 21 BAB of my split, and OFC I do scroll tensor. yes I agree it probably counts 30% less than the perma one and is annoying to scroll cast, but is we say it's 70% what does that give me, 1 less DEX than the perma tenser? But I have 2 free feats, say grandmaster stance and great DEX, so I'm actually winning by 1 DEX? plus 10 meter sneak range, 3 sneak dice... To be honest it feels to me that even if I was too lazy to scroll tenser and having that 2 less DEX, what ranger gives would surpass it presuming the same throw speed near cap levels.

If I missed something, enlighten me, I'm not looking for d!ck measuring here, I love to tune builds and find the perfect one. I'm sure your build is amazing and fun to play, as all good shuri builds are, so most people think theirs is best because it can rule pretty much any quest :-) And I bet its very comfortable just casting an extended displace or even haste the moment you run out, and never having to scroll tenser. But presume you are halfling for the (presumably to be fixed in next update) crit range, compare what your split gains and loses over 4 rogue 4 ranger with DwS tree, I can't see the wizard winning. Highest possible DEX is not the only DPS you can get, and if you truly aim for highest, then I believe ranger wins out with the SA stuff, and even the annoyance of scrolling tenser is worth that.

[jakeelala]

I have been running a shuriken build for a long while (just never bothered to put it up here :-D) and ended up favoring 12 monk / 4 rogue / 4 ranger as the highest DPS with petty much the same defense as pure monk (little less run speed but still enough, same AC, uncanny dodge) + full rogue skills which is a great thing to have. I dismissed all the 11-12 wizard nonsense, tensored reconstruct sucks and you lose any working AC, lot of dodge and DPS. This perma tenser idea at least got me thinking though.

I largely agree with all of this except that your split is highest DPS. It certainly isn't far off, but I don't believe it's highest.

Thing is, ranger is fantastic, it gives rapid shot and precise shot for free and feats are very tight for shuri builds, ranger allows me to take halfling and not lose any essential feat, your build loses 1 more feat the moment it goes halfling when they fix the crit range, doesn't have grandmaster stance or deflect arrows which is awesome, etc.

Grandmaster Stance is immaterial to this build. It's just a +1 dex, and only if you're not in Water or Earth (which I sometimes am based on situation, though not most of the time. So that's irrelevant to me).

I have not found myself to be particular feat hungry at any point on this build, particularly now that I know I don't need Blinding Speed. So that's not really a vote in Ranger's favor as far as split goes.

To be honest, having done the math in Poppy's thread and in my own on TF shuriken damage, the fact is with my current favored split, 9Rogue, 6 Monk, 5 Wizard, I prefer Elf over Halfing. To get halfing crit threat range +1, I have to use 16AP. There's no way I can get 16AP out of my current enhancements. But lets just say I could, the ONLY thing I gain for moving those AP over is the Crit Threat. I could take dodge cap, but it would be hard to get another 3% to cap it out, though not impossible. I would gain SA dice, but no more than I had in other trees when I didn't use the AP in Halfing. Dex is the same, and but I lose SA range, which is a huge no-no. Physical damage on my current Elf build is only about 30-40% of my total DPS/throw. SA damage is about 33%, and Proc Damage is about 33%. Therefore the 7-8% DPS increase of increasing my crit threat range is really only a real world increase of about 3-4% at the absolute very most. On a build whose physical damage was closer to 50-75% of DPS/Throw this enhancement makes a lot more sense. I'd rather have the Elf SA range to be honest. Especially as a 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wizard. This is the same line of logic re: 20 Monk Pure thrower (Shuricannon): even with the capstone, your physical damage just isn't a big enough part of the equation to sacrifice SO MUCH else in order to have the crit threat increase (and 5'ish damage per throw from vorpal).

Best part thought is that deepwood stalker gives you 10 extra meters of sneak attack range, especially on a sneak heavy build as yours (even more in you go SD ED) that is a huge thing, as often you range from afar and the basic range is not enough, not even that elf or mechanic, I found that 5 meter from mechanic and 10 from DwS is juuust about OK for consistent SA, though still I would like to get 5 more from somewhere, often I still am out of range, and you know well how much dmg that is, 60-80 SA dmg depending on ED. At least for me it feels like without decent sneak range one doesn't even have to bother with working on SA dmg, not true of course, on close range it still works and most bosses will be, but it's just not consistent enough to invest heavily in it. DwS also gives 3 sneak dice on top of that 10 meter range increase, all that for 6 AP!!! Also ram's might for extra 2 dmg is not nothing either.
Plus, going rogue 4 give me no mercy 1 AP cheaper than the silly ninja one :-) and uncanny dodge for some more dodge and extra boost when things get hot.

1. I go 9 Rogue. Though I've moved away from No Mercy because when not in Shiradi I don't make things helpless very much anymore. I just ranged assainate them or DPS them down with all the added DPS from having lots of SA dice.
2. I have lots of range from Mechanic and full Elf racial line.
3. You lose:
4 Dex from Tensers
4 Con from Tensers
2 Dex in tree
10 PRR,
10% AC
Elemental Resists
Spell Power for Cocoon
Full BaB.
+3 Damage on Crits (basically stacking Seeker 3)
Displacement All the Time
Haste All of the Time (if you want it)

I do not believe ranger offers enough compelling for me to change my split.

What wizard 5 gives, displacement haste etc. aside, is that perma tenser. It's great and nice and **** I wish i had it, don't get me wrong, just thinking about it is exciting :-) but especially with this thrown speed cap ****, the full BAB is kinda lessened, if you have WW and haste/wind stance/something you are pretty much at cap throwing speed even at 21 BAB of my split, and OFC I do scroll tensor. yes I agree it probably counts 30% less than the perma one and is annoying to scroll cast, but is we say it's 70% what does that give me, 1 less DEX than the perma tenser? But I have 2 free feats, say grandmaster stance and great DEX, so I'm actually winning by 1 DEX? plus 10 meter sneak range, 3 sneak dice... To be honest it feels to me that even if I was too lazy to scroll tenser and having that 2 less DEX, what ranger gives would surpass it presuming the same throw speed near cap levels.

Wind Stance does nothing for thrown attack speed. Let me repeat that for empahsis: WIND STANCE DOES NOTHING FOR THROWN ATTACK SPEED.

Scroll Tensers is HORRIBLY inefficient. Maybe you play differently than me, but either you don't have it up most of the time, or you're wasting DPS time to scroll it. Either way, that's terrible. You don't have 2 free feats, you just have different flexibility in how you assign them. The fact is, there aren't very many compelling feats for this build once you have basic ranged feats and monk stances, so you pretty much end up with either GMoF or Great Dex. So maybe at best 1 dex behind. But 100% of the time, I have 4 Alcemical Dex that you have, more realistically, about 50% of the time, and that's being generous. Also, a boatload more HP from +4 Alchem Con. And of course, I have to do far less to max my throwing speed with full time Full BaB. And self cast Haste. I've done non-wizard splits, probably for about 75% of this characters life as a shuriken thrower. It's not as good. But it's also not much worse. At this point, we are splitting hairs.

If I missed something, enlighten me, I'm not looking for d!ck measuring here, I love to tune builds and find the perfect one. I'm sure your build is amazing and fun to play, as all good shuri builds are, so most people think theirs is best because it can rule pretty much any quest :-) And I bet its very comfortable just casting an extended displace or even haste the moment you run out, and never having to scroll tenser. But presume you are halfling for the (presumably to be fixed in next update) crit range, compare what your split gains and loses over 4 rogue 4 ranger with DwS tree, I can't see the wizard winning. Highest possible DEX is not the only DPS you can get, and if you truly aim for highest, then I believe ranger wins out with the SA stuff, and even the annoyance of scrolling tenser is worth that.

First of all, I'm 9 Rogue, so I actually do MORE SA damage than your build. Also, you keep writing off have 4 dex and 4 con and full BaB fulltime as though it's like, you know, like not that important. ITS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS BUILD. That and basically perma Displace, Haste, and other low level Wizard buffs which are great like Shield, AC from Mage Armor (u23 or 24 will include changes to PRR/AC/DODGE btw, don't count them out).

As I said above, once you have 6 Monk, and are dex focused, you're 90% of the way to a basic thrower. Once you throw in at least 3 Rogue for Shadow Dodge, you're getting closer to a max Dex version and some SA damage which is really nice on a Shuriken thrower if you build and gear correctly.

Once you start getting past that, you are really splitting hairs. Specific decisions like ranger vs. wizard are not obvious or clear cut. I feel, based on my play style and experience with amny ranger split builds, that this is a superior split for the above mentioned reasons. Clickies and scrolls are nice, but they should never used in place of full time versions of your most crucial buffs. Some exceptions are Greeensteal haste and displace because their durations are good. However, you still have to swap them to use them which is a little lame, but not much. The diff btw perma tensers and scrolled tensers however, is enormous.

Ifeel like largely the take away from your post, with all due respect is that you're arguiing:
"Ranger doesn't offer anything strongly compelling over Wizard, except that it's only a couple dex points behind Wizard splits, and 4 con and 7 BaB".

Besides 2 feats that aren't really missing whats actually better about Ranger that I don't already have?
-Deflect arrows /2 Seconds instead of /6 Seconds. This is actually a REALLY nice thing I am missing. But I do have deflect arrows so it's not a totall loss, just less effective.
-Ram's Might: +2 Damage It's not nothing, but it is very small.
-Maybe 1 NON-Tensers Dex due to feats. I'll give you this, but 1 Dex on it's own, again, is not a very appreciable difference. In fact, it's roughly equivalent to Ram's Might.
-A little more SA range. I have 15 with Elf (10) and Rogue Mech (5). DWS would increase this 5-10Meters, which is a total increase over my split of about 20%. Again, nice little bump, not really a HUGE impact on the overall DPS of the build though. Once you know what SA range you have, you learn to just throw from there. I could stand 5-10 meters back from where I do now in game, but I'm already well out of Melee range, and it gives me lots of room to move. I'm not discounting it, but I won't over-value the increase either.
-???

I'm pretty sure that's about it. I think you can make a very nice looking Elf 12Monk/4 Ranger/4 Rogue, or even 12 Rogue (improved SA)/6Monk/4Ranger Elf that would be very good, and truly competitive with my 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wizard Elf. 12m/4/4 is good, but, but with gear for Armor Piercing and your throwing speed rate, SA damage is SO MUCH damage. I think you shouldn't half ass it because ranger doesn't offer anything important offensively besides the ability to better use SA damage. So take ranger levels for that and hyper focus. That's what I try to do. I admit Elf/Ranger/Rogue all contributing to SA range is awesome, but the only thing I feel ranger offers that is material over wizard is SA range at this point. And I don't think 20-30% more SA range over what I already get from Rogue and Elf is compelling enough to drop Wizard for all of it's benefits it offers. That's my line of reasoning.

If you aren't convinced by me or this thread, then don't make this split. If you are unconvinced by me and still curious yourself, roll the build and see for yourself.

[elcagador]

How about a Ranger 8 (Empower healing), Monk 6/ rogue 6 splash (Or a rogue 10/ranger 6/Monk 4)? I think your splash is very good for trash dps, but against bosses improved archer focus stance seems hard to pass, also can use manyshot when full stacks of that and heavy draw. My question is how much dps at end level gives full bab from tensers compared to 23-24 bab not tensered (asuming you have blinding speed and whirling wrists) ?

[jakeelala]

How about a Ranger 8 (Empower healing), Monk 6/ rogue 6 splash (Or a rogue 10/ranger 6/Monk 4)? I think your splash is very good for trash dps, but against bosses improved archer focus stance seems hard to pass, also can use manyshot when full stacks of that and heavy draw. My question is how much dps at end level gives full bab from tensers compared to 23-24 bab not tensered (asuming you have blinding speed and whirling wrists) ?

Once again, Improved Archers Focus only improves physical damage. SO you get about 1/3rd of it's stated benefit. Not impressive to me as a Tier 5 choice. 100% of this builds damage in SD applied to bosses, unlike Shiradi. Quite the contrary, I made this build to excel more so against bosses.

The shiradi version of this build, or any shiradi shuriken build, tends to be very weak DPS against red names. Shifting DPS to SA instead of Helpless damage is a huge distinguishing factor in Boss DPS.

Adding IAF would not add very much to your boss DPS, but it wouldn't hurt either as long as you still maximized SA damage.

This build does not use Bows. I have mixed AA and Shurikens many times. The problem is you don't have Fury and Slayer Arrow, and IC crit and Earth Stance active, Manyshot with a bow is pretty unimpressive. Since you wont be having any of those, to me is sounds like a terrible idea. And that's been play-tested by me.

[jakeelala]

How about a Ranger 8 (Empower healing), Monk 6/ rogue 6 splash (Or a rogue 10/ranger 6/Monk 4)? I think your splash is very good for trash dps, but against bosses improved archer focus stance seems hard to pass, also can use manyshot when full stacks of that and heavy draw. My question is how much dps at end level gives full bab from tensers compared to 23-24 bab not tensered (asuming you have blinding speed and whirling wrists) ?

Re: Attack speed, I did the calcs for hours and put them in a table in this thread and in the Guides forums. According to my own calculations in the table the diff between Haste/WW and WW/Tensers/Haste is 5% attack speed. I did not test it with Blinding Speed, but I think the result would be the same since it adds the same enhancement bonus (22% vs 15%) alacrity to both situations.

[Luskacik]

@Jakeelala: I agree it's splitting hairs, but it's fun to chase the perfect build, isn't it?
OK I absolutely agree for your build Elf is must, you could fit the halfling crit range by dropping no mercy as you say you don't shiradi much, but losing the crit range is unacceptable, this is precisely why I went 4 ranger, to get the 15 meters extra range, and it's just enough to make me happy with how often I do SA, I wouldn't mind extra 5-10 more :-D So let's try to compare the original elf 12/5/3 build with a halfling 12/4/4 build and split some hairs :-) I don't want to compare a 9 rogue build, that would be another discussion and imo losing the run speed and abundant step is not worth any permatenser in the world, so no sense comparing that. And ok let's count scrolled tensers as 50%, it's uncomfortable and I'm sure you see it as horrible now that you have perma, but it's doable between fights no problem with barely a slowdown, if I don't recast it in a fight to not lose DPS lets say it's 50%, I think it's a bit more and you yourself said 70%, but say at least 50% to be fair. BTW about wind stance, *** that is a bug then, right? Its description says something very different... But I'm throwing speed capped anyway so that doesn't matter, nor does the BAB gain from perma tenser in the endgame. And both builds have 15 extra SA range so no difference there. As for DEX from trees, we both get +6 dex from enhancement trees as far as I can see, both 2 from race, 2 from ninja, 1 from acrobat (your build seems to indicate not but I am assuming since you ditched haste boost you put that in), you get 2 from EK and I get 1 from DwS and 1 from Henshin.

halfling:
+1 AC halfling
+2 dex from extra feats (ignoring other feat options, earth stance etc.)
+6 sneak dice from halfling and DwS tree
+4 saves
+3% dodge and dodge cap
+1 crit range
+2 damage Ram's Might
+18 HP from higher hit dice
+15 HP tortoise
+1 ki generation
+1 favored enemy, very situational, I'm just gonna ignore that
+40 positive spellpower from ranger tree

elf:
+3 AC perma tenser opposed to scrolled
+2 dex from perma tenser as opposed to scrolled one, even with halfling
+0 con : +2 from perma tenser, -2 starting as elf
+d6 dmg spellsword
+10% AC
+10 PRR
+15 HP toughness EK, evens out with tortoise
+3 critical dmg
+6 elemental resistance
+ nice arcane barrier
+ easy haste and displace you can't run out of
+15 positive spellpower from EK, loser :-P

so, some pros and cons on both sides, but it lokos quite different from what you wrote you "lose" with not going wizard, it feels like you dismiss ranger without really evaluating what it brings. If I missed something correct me, but the BAB difference is irrelevant with the throw speed cap, so your biggest argument for perma tenser vs scrolls doesn't really apply imo.
- DEX seems even if you count scrolled tenser as 1/2, CON is even, the halfling version actually has 18 more HP and 25 more positive spellpower, contrary to what you wrote.

- You get 3.5 dmg from spellsword (ignoring element immune mobs) and +3 crit dmg which is really 0.3 average with 10%/x2 crit profile, that is 3.8 average dmg
- I get 2 dmg from Ram's but that's +2 base dmg so with crits, archers focus, vulnerability procs / hepless mobs that's more like 3.5-4 dmg, let's count 3.5 per star. I also have 6 sneak dice (notice that this is still more than even your current 9 rogue split offers, it gives you only 3 more SA over 3 rogue), I think we both more or less agree that you can count the sneaks dice working for about 1/3 of the time, so that is 7 average dmg from sneak dice, 10.5 dmg together in average case, more than the 3.8 that elf has
- 1 more crit range, in end game we do a bit more than 80 base dmg per throw, so that's 5% of 80 = 4 average + 5% of aggregated seeker 16 = 0.8, so the crit range amounts to average 4.8 per star
to sum that up, in a gross estimate average case the halfing will do exactly 10.5 + 4.8 - 3.8 = 11.5 more dmg per star than the elf.

Defense wise, it can't really be compared easily, elf gets 10% AC and PRR, arcane barrier and endless displacement + 6 elem resistance, halfling gets +3% and +4 saves, while saves I personally value quite high, also with the +1 ki gen I can be in shadow fade whenever I need to which you can't, that imo is worth than the AC and PRR boost which exhibit diminishing returns at the high values we both can get (I am over 160 AC without earth stance and 80 PRR), but as said it's debatable, you can shadow fade sometimes, just not consistenly if you 10K every time you can. And +4 to saves is a lot, even if you have saves around 60-80, 4 is a lot. Arcane barrier is great too though, so as said this is very fuzzy, I would say similar defensive capabilities, we all know that these builds all have more than enough defense even for the toughest quests.

So, doing this comparison, yes it's splitting hairs in some regards, and if you came to love the permatenser and endless haste/displace I can see how you prefer this split, but I think I have shown how the halfling ranger version is clearly superior in DPS even without the 4.8 for improved crit range that doesn't work atm. If 12 monk in favor of 9 rogue, you closed the gap for now, but with the next update and crit range, the ranger will win again unless they change something else, plus, abundant step and 2 running speed stacks is a big sacrifice imo for questionable gain, If you truly chase top DPS which I think was the original idea of this build and the reason to try permatenser, then I think ranger should be a close winner, I probably won't convince you, but I tried to at least show what ranger brings to the table in a side by side comparison. Actually while halfling crits are bugged, if you went and changed your elf to have 4 ranger 1 rogue instead of 5 wizard, you would get the rogue special ability (say defensive roll for your 85 reflex save :-)), 10 extra sneak range on top of what you have now so pretty much sneak range all the time, +2 extra DEX from feats and 3 extra sneak dice + rams + 40 spellpower, don't tell me that's not more DPS than permatenser I think you just hate the idea of scrolling tenser by now but I think even if you said screw tenser, you would have more DPS from what ranger gives as long as you are throw speed capped.

Of course if they ever change the throw speed cap and the maxed BAB can show its full effect with haste and stuff, then the perma tenser will very likely win out on DPS and I will roll it, but seeing as I throw exactly the same speed with tensers as without at the moment, I don't see the benefit...

[Luskacik]

on another note, I'm curious about this SD vs Shiradi comparison and why you prefer SD, again, I'm not trying to troll you, but have a fruitful discussion

Why do you say SD is better for DPS? You pretty much get 6 SA dice and the 5% vulnerability buff, say the SA dice apply 1/3 of the time, that's 7 dmg, the vulnerability, say 80 base physical dmg per hit plus crits, ranger focus / helpless etc., say 120 average, so the vulnerability does another 6 average dmg per star, thats 13 dmg per star. And that is counting the vulnerability to be on full time which is absolutely NOT true. And you have to twist in WW and Stay frosty, and Pin.

Shiradi, lets say I go stay frosty (which I don't as double rainbow is better, it can't be quantified, but it gives tons of AOE and DOTs, 2 types of instakill etc. etc.), Pin, WW, venom and 6x dex. The base Shiradi procs give me 10.92 average proc dmg, easy math, +2 base dmg from core line which I say is 3 on average, so almost 14 dmg per star, that's already 1 more. AND I didnt count venom, and say what you will about bosses, except very few raids and quests, you spend more time fighting trash than the boss, and venom procs very often and gives you 230 base dmg instead of 80, full SA, and ofc crowd control. So even ignoring double rainbow which can't be proven to be better than frosty (although from experience of many people it is) and ignoring venom which is a huge deal, and ignoring the 3 twists you have to take from Shiradi and that I can spend on other DPS stuff, Shiradi still seems to give more dps output than SD, I just don't see your math...


BTW Someone said in another thread the base shiradi dmg is 21, where he counted fey favor to give up to +10 dmg bonus, that is not true or is it? I tried testing it and AFAIK, it only gives bonus to attack, not to damage, correct?

[elcagador]

Once again, Improved Archers Focus only improves physical damage. SO you get about 1/3rd of it's stated benefit. Not impressive to me as a Tier 5 choice. 100% of this builds damage in SD applied to bosses, unlike Shiradi. Quite the contrary, I made this build to excel more so against bosses.

The shiradi version of this build, or any shiradi shuriken build, tends to be very weak DPS against red names. Shifting DPS to SA instead of Helpless damage is a huge distinguishing factor in Boss DPS.

Adding IAF would not add very much to your boss DPS, but it wouldn't hurt either as long as you still maximized SA damage.

This build does not use Bows. I have mixed AA and Shurikens many times. The problem is you don't have Fury and Slayer Arrow, and IC crit and Earth Stance active, Manyshot with a bow is pretty unimpressive. Since you wont be having any of those, to me is sounds like a terrible idea. And that's been play-tested by me.

I wasn't talking about Shiradi or SD, just talking about ranger deepwood stalker vs wizard eldritch knight splash, actually the ranger splash can give more SA dmg from 2 core abilities, also more point blank shot range, more positive spellpower (with the option of empower healing if 8ranger lvls or more), from tier 5 ability is not only improved archer focus but also heavy draw that is +5 raw dmg.

Ranger splash give you 2 feats for free (rapid shot and precise shot), so you can get IC ranged and zen archery for manyshot, the only thing you are missing is some strength and possibly master stone stance (but can switch to that if want although probably not worth).

The thing is you can start the boss fight with ten k stars and damage boost (another bonus from ranger splash) and charge your archer focus stance, once your ten k stars finish and manyshot become available, you already will have +50% dmg bonus from improved archer focus stance on and can switch to bow for manyshot + damage boost (4 arrows per attack with better crit dmg, that also increase your SA attacks, seems very worth, even in SD or Shiradi, but keep in mind that can use fury for furyshot or adrenaline+sniper shot during manyshot)

That is asuming you are not tanking and can stay in a position to charge archer focus.

So you don't lose SA dmg but gain manyshot when ten k stars cooldown, damage boost, Improved archer focus, heavy draw, some point blank shot range, and rams might, at the cost of perma tensers and spellsword.

So I think is debatable the ranger vs wizard splash from a dps perspective.

[elcagador]

Re: Attack speed, I did the calcs for hours and put them in a table in this thread and in the Guides forums. According to my own calculations in the table the diff between Haste/WW and WW/Tensers/Haste is 5% attack speed. I did not test it with Blinding Speed, but I think the result would be the same since it adds the same enhancement bonus (22% vs 15%) alacrity to both situations.

Thanks for the info.

[marspr]

Just started a Halfling, based on this split. She's my first thrower and I'm a complete neophyte when It comes to them. Does the off hand weapon increase damage? If so, how?

[RumbIe]

I'm playing Firewalls shuricannon right now and I love thrower builds as result. Yours looks really good too and an interesting way to work towards completionist as different thrower builds for a bit. (I have a past barb life to get it out of the way. FW's build woudl be monk and yours rogue )

In any case I'll assume that you have decent survivability due to your ability to solo EE content, but what are we looking at for AC, dodge, PRR and saves? I notice you don't take combat expertise or deflect arrows. I find my thrower build to be very durable and I'm not even fully tricked out on gear. I'm at about 110 AC which gets bumped in Earth stance and it can go up quite a bit when I get the gear I want, 28% dodge and some modest PRR though not great. Can't remember my reflex saves right now, but not bad.

With an 80+ dex yours must be great I'm sure but curious if some feats like CE could help it out even more?

Thanks and as I said I like the build. Interesting combo of classes to maximize. I love seeing that. My first build along time ago was an exploiter TWF ranger/rogue/monk and I liked the synergy it had. This feels similar.

[jakeelala]

I'm playing Firewalls shuricannon right now and I love thrower builds as result. Yours looks really good too and an interesting way to work towards completionist as different thrower builds for a bit. (I have a past barb life to get it out of the way. FW's build woudl be monk and yours rogue )

In any case I'll assume that you have decent survivability due to your ability to solo EE content, but what are we looking at for AC, dodge, PRR and saves? I notice you don't take combat expertise or deflect arrows. I find my thrower build to be very durable and I'm not even fully tricked out on gear. I'm at about 110 AC which gets bumped in Earth stance and it can go up quite a bit when I get the gear I want, 28% dodge and some modest PRR though not great. Can't remember my reflex saves right now, but not bad.

With an 80+ dex yours must be great I'm sure but curious if some feats like CE could help it out even more?

Thanks and as I said I like the build. Interesting combo of classes to maximize. I love seeing that. My first build along time ago was an exploiter TWF ranger/rogue/monk and I liked the synergy it had. This feels similar.

Lol all of your questions are answered in the picture at the beginning of this thread.

AC under 150 useless, above that is has VERY small benefit but it does exist.

[Purkilius]

Just finished my 2nd sorc life and want to do something different with the last 1 so I was thinking dex based elf 8 sorc 6 monk 6 ranger with shuriken and long bow perma-tensered.

Note this is just a life that will be played from 18 to 28.

The reason why I am posting here is that I have never played with shurikens and could use some experienced insight!

Enhancements:

elf 17
EK 31

= 48, 32 left.

I was thinking DWS for sniper shot and killer but I think at least at level 18 I would go for tempest haste boost to begin with!

As I understand it right I can get good shurikens from the ES challenges but what to use for offhand? Envenomed Blade maybe at level 18!

All info would be helpful

[RumbIe]

I am an idiot. So used to reading walls of text the obvious and easy answer alluded me.

It's a bit grainy but it looks like 139 AC. So my point about CE is fairly valid in that it bumps you over 150. Or can you not Tensers in CE stance?

PRR is covered up but you could twist for 20 more PRR as well if more defense was desired, but probably not at the cost of dps I guess.

[jakeelala]

I had a shuricannon. Until u22 hits and for the last year this build and similar splits are vastly superior to 20 monk.

After u22, if i come back to DDO, maybe ill re-do the math. 20 monk gets a big boost with NS capstone working, though not big enough to rule out other splits nesc. Since physical damage is only Bout 1/3rd of dps for a thrower, today.

[jakeelala]

I am an idiot. So used to reading walls of text the obvious and easy answer alluded me.

It's a bit grainy but it looks like 139 AC. So my point about CE is fairly valid in that it bumps you over 150. Or can you not Tensers in CE stance?

PRR is covered up but you could twist for 20 more PRR as well if more defense was desired, but probably not at the cost of dps I guess.

Forget about AC. Defense is not a problem with these builds. You're not melee'ing, and you still have top notch Defense.

[Cain]

Hi There jakeelala,

So I'm very interested when I saw your build and so I'm currently leveling a first life rogue (I know past life doesn't add much) to TR into a thrower. I notice that partway through the thread it seems you've shifted away from a 12monk/5wiz/3rog to a 9rog/6monk/5wiz build. I actually like the sound of that as I felt very challenged to get my skills up with only 3 levels of rogue.

I was wondering what do you see as the benefits of the new build over the old? I was also wondering if you could lay out how you did your feats. Thank you, I appreciate any help you're able to give. Definitely love the build.