Why the multiclassing focus on X12/Y6/Z2?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

I'm curious why there are so many multiclassing builds that go ClassOne for 12 levels, ClassTwo for 6 levels, and ClassThree for 2 levels (in any order). Has this been formulaically or empirically proven to be the best overall way to do things?

I understand dipping 2 levels in Paladin, Monk, or/and Rogue for quick and powerful benefits.

[Nightmanis]

The main reason is because of what happens at those various stages.

Take for example Cetus and his merry toaster.

12 Fighter levels. He specifically stopped here because of the ability Power Surge.

He was left with 8 levels to play with. He went with 6 monk because beyond that it offered nothing he needed. At 6, he was given a 3rd monk feat, the second tier stances, and Shadow Fade for 25% incorp for 1 minute.

He's now left with 2 levels. He could take ranger for free bow strength, but he went with Paladin because at level 2 paladin you get divine grace for Charisma bonus to saves and Divine Might for the cha bonus to your Strength score.

If you would like a build that doesn't focus on that particular split, I'm quite partial to the 11 Ranger (last free feat is at 11, Improved Precise Shot), 8 Rogue (improved Uncanny Dodge) and 1 Fighter or Monk. Both offer a free feat, but for a bit of ap you can be centered with shortswords and get all the monk stances.

[Merlin-ator]

Old habits die hard. It's mostly a holdover from the old enhancement system, where you had one set of generic class enhancements, one set of Prestige enhancements, and one set of race enhancements. You could only take one prestige enhancement per class, and they were only available when you took 6 levels of a class (with a few exceptions). If you took 12 levels in on class, you could take 2/3 of a prestige line. 6 levels in another grants part one of three in another line. 2 is mostly filler, you just need something with good benefits. Since prestige lines added so much to the viability of a build, it was recommended to use this or a similar split whenever a deep dip was required.

[Munkenmo]

There's a few reasons for the dips:

1 fighter = bonus feat, haste boost
1 wiz = bonus feat
1 divine = empower heal
1 rogue = traps & 15% attack speed boost with 1/4 staves & umd
1 arti = traps & umd

2 paladin is another obvious one for cha to save bonuses.
2 monk is obvious for 2 feats + evasion
2 rogue is obvious for evasion
2 fighter is for 2 feats, with people often taking hasteboost + extra action boosts.
2 FVS for divine might & just rewards

3 Rogue is the next tier of sneak attack

Some people will take 4 paladin to qualify for empower heal, and divine might and Cha to saves.
Some people are also taking 4 fvs in order to qualify for Ameliorating strike in the warpriest tree (it's a respectable aoe heal)
4 rogue can be appealing to qualify for uncanny dodge (though normally more levels would be taken)

6 is another obvious stepping stone:
6 ranger = manyshot and improved 2wf
6 monk = adept of forms, 3bonus feats, evasion, shadowfade (leaving someone 1 feat shy of a +1 crit mulitplier on 19/20)

8 Fighter is normally the next stepping stone, as this is the point you unlock "centred kensais" Probably most prominant in 8fighter/6monk/6ranger builds

9 is an attractive choice:
9 monk = improved evasion + the previously listed 6monk bonuses
9 druid = qualifying for natural fighting feats and secondary animal form (normally winter wolf)
9 ranger = evasion

11 stands out for ranger, this is a sweet spot for the majority of their bonus feats.

12 is an obvious one as you get the next core ability in all classes.
12 also allows rogues and monks to qualify for their epic feats.

14 for paladin is where they qualify for zeal or holy sword.

15 monk nets the feat quivering palm
15 bard to qualify for Inspire Excellence
15 paladin grants another smite and a second level 4 spell slot, allowing room for zeal and holy sword.

16 is where a lot of shiradi casters settle so they can pick up just rewards from 2fvs, and evasion or saves from 2monk or 2pally

17 is a nice stopping point for DC based clerics, druids and wizards, as they'll get there level 9 spells, and can pick up bonuses from the 2/1 splash options.

18 is an obvious stopping point when people go back to pick up the 1/2 splash bonuses.

20 well, 20 misses out on a lot of opportunities elsewhere for some fairly meager capstone options.

most of the splashes I see now are:
12/6/2 (normally involving monk)
8/6/6 (normally involving monk)
9/9/2 (this is predominantly a past life split I find)
9/8/3 (monk icon centred kensais)
16/2/2 (shiradis, and monks seem to adopt this split)
17/2/1 (often druid/2monk/1wiz)
18/2 (predominantly old melee builds from yesteryear and casters who want level 9 spells, but prefer a splash vs capstone)
20 (the only 20's i see around now are normally casters)

I've missed out plenty of things, because there are plenty of builds, but as a person who's primarily a builder this should hopefully help give you some insight.

[Amundir]

Someone correct me, but doen't the ddo examiner also reorder the classes you have in most taken to least take? So if you do Ftr/Mnk/Mnk/Ftr/Ftr/Ftr it would show you as Ftr 3 / Mnk 2? So examining them doesn't necessarily mean that is the order they went in.

[Cardtrick]

18/2 (older splits where people haven't TR'ed since the enhancement pass)

Or sorcerers / favored souls who want a 9th level spell and their 5th core. I still like 18/2 favored soul / paladin and 18/2 sorcerer / paladin.

Or DC wizards splashing rogue or monk for evasion and either trap skills or feats. You need 18 wizard levels for the Lich form.

It was a really good post explaining the common level splits, but I just felt like you didn't give this one a fair shake.

[glouky]

There's a few reasons for the dips:

1 fighter = bonus feat, haste boost
1 wiz = bonus feat
1 divine = empower heal
1 rogue = traps & 15% attack speed boost with 1/4 staves & umd
1 arti = traps & umd

2 paladin is another obvious one for cha to save bonuses.
2 monk is obvious for 2 feats + evasion
2 rogue is obvious for evasion
2 fighter is for 2 feats, with people often taking hasteboost + extra action boosts.
2 FVS for divine might & just rewards

Some people will take 4 paladin to qualify for empower heal, and divine might and Cha to saves.
Some people are also taking 4 fvs in order to qualify for Ameliorating strike in the warpriest tree (it's a respectable aoe heal)
4 rogue can be appealing to qualify for uncanny dodge (though normally more levels would be taken)

6 is another obvious stepping stone:
6 ranger = manyshot and improved 2wf
6 monk = adept of forms, 3bonus feats, evasion, shadowfade (leaving someone 1 feat shy of a +1 crit mulitplier on 19/20)

8 Fighter is normally the next stepping stone, as this is the point you unlock "centred kensais" Probably most prominant in 8fighter/6monk/6ranger builds

9 is an attractive choice:
9 monk = improved evasion + the previously listed 6monk bonuses
9 druid = qualifying for natural fighting feats and secondary animal form (normally winter wolf)

11 stands out for ranger, this is a sweet spot for the majority of their bonus feats.

12 is an obvious one as you get the next core ability in all classes.

14 for paladin is where they qualify for zeal.

15 monk nets the feat quivering palm

16 is where a lot of shiradi casters settle so they can pick up just rewards from 2fvs, and evasion or saves from 2monk or 2pally

17 is a nice stopping point for DC based clerics, druids and wizards, as they'll get there level 9 spells, and can pick up bonuses from the 2/1 splash options.

18 is an obvious stopping point when people go back to pick up the 1/2 splash bonuses.

20 well, 20 misses out on a lot of opportunities elsewhere for some fairly meager capstone options.

most of the splashes I see now are:
12/6/2 (normally involving monk)
8/6/6 (normally involving monk)
9/9/2 (this is predominantly a past life split I find)
9/8/3 (monk icon centred kensais)
16/2/2 (shiradis, and monks seem to adopt this split)
17/2/1 (often druid/2monk/1wiz)
18/2 (older splits where people haven't TR'ed since the enhancement pass)
20 (the only 20's i see around now are normally casters)

I've missed out plenty of things, because there are plenty of builds, but as a person who's primarily a builder this should hopefully help give you some insight.

This is very interesting, and I think (considering the time you may have spend to answer) that it deserves a dedicated thread to make easier to acces.

[unbongwah]

6/12/18 splits are based on the core enhancements. Once you decide to go for a 6/12 split or 18 lvls in a single class, you've obviously got two lvls left over; at which point you look for any splashes which provide the most bang-for-your-buck (e.g., monk or rog 2 for Evasion, pal 2 for Divine Grace). One side effect of the Enhancement overhaul is certain classes & PrEs became even more front-loaded than before, which can lead to some unconventional splits; see my Faithsworn Hunter for one example of a 12/4/4 build.

Other factors to consider:

• What are the must-have spells for your build? This means you need to pay attention to spell progression and # of spell slots to make sure you get what you want.
• What innate class abilities do you want? E.g., druid builds based on wolf form usually go to at least druid lvl 9, because that gets them Winter Wolf form (lvl 8) and access to Natural Fighting feats (lvl 9); OTOH, if you want to use an elemental form, you need to go to at least druid lvl 13.
• Is the effectiveness of certain abilities based on your char lvl or your class lvl? E.g., Assassinate DCs are based on # of rog lvls, so the more you MC an Assassin, the less effective Assassinate becomes; but Stunning Fist is based on char lvl, so it can be very useful on a WIS-based monk-splashed build like a clonk or Drunk. EDIT: spells are another example, as they're usually scaled to your caster lvl.

[Munkenmo]

It was a really good post explaining the common level splits, but I just felt like you didn't give this one a fair shake.

It was a dig at a friend ill update that post, hes seen it now and I had my laugh

[Endarire]

Thanks, all!

This has confirmed some of my suspicions. In DDO, like in tabletop, casters tend to be worth it for the level 9 spells (and if they multiclass, they ensure they get level 9s by level 20) while non-casters tend to multiclass into as many front-loaded classes as suits their fancy (and their game will allow).

[Cardtrick]

It was a dig at a friend ill update that post, hes seen it now and I had my laugh

Ha, sorry. Should've guessed.

[mna]

9 is an attractive choice:
9 monk = improved evasion + the previously listed 6monk bonuses
9 druid = qualifying for natural fighting feats and secondary animal form (normally winter wolf)

11 stands out for ranger, this is a sweet spot for the majority of their bonus feats.

... 9 ranger for Evasion (and option to effectively get Improved Evasion from Tempest t5 enhancements).


... 12 monk or rogue for those epic feats, and 15 bard to qualify for Inspire Excellence. Just in case someone's updating a list somewhere.

[EllisDee37]

The answer to the OP is mostly core abilities, which require 3, 6, 12, 18 and 20 class levels. Some classes also happen to get specific bonuses (usually feats) at 6, like monks. Fighters get their unique super-bonus at 8, paladins at 2.

I'm currently leveling a 15/5 pally/rogue, fully embracing the new enhancement system for a sireth-wielding acrobat build, but for the most part you still get your best power from 2, 6 or 12 class levels.

It's rare that stopping at 5 makes more sense than just adding 1 more level to get to 6. Rogues happen to be one of the few classes where the 6th level doesn't add much, and paladins happen to be one of the few classes where the 15th level adds tangible value over 14 levels.

[mna]

It's rare that stopping at 5 makes more sense than just adding 1 more level to get to 6. Rogues happen to be one of the few classes where the 6th level doesn't add much, and paladins happen to be one of the few classes where the 15th level adds tangible value over 14 levels.

For the sake of completeness, though - nowadays 15/5 gets one more Improved Heroic Durability over 14/6, I believe?


(Hm, "few classes where the 15th level adds tangible value"? Rogues and wizards get a bonus feat there; clerics, wizards and druids get 8th level spells at 15; bards can qualify for Inspire Excellence at 15, artificers get their first 6th level spell slot at 15, monks get Quivering Palm... and the paladins... that makes 8 out of 13 classes that do get something tangible at 15, with paladins arguably getting less than most - at least if you don't count what the 2nd l4 spell slot gets used for.)

[kuro_zero]

For the sake of completeness, though - nowadays 15/5 gets one more Improved Heroic Durability over 14/6, I believe?


(Hm, "few classes where the 15th level adds tangible value"? Rogues and wizards get a bonus feat there; clerics, wizards and druids get 8th level spells at 15; bards can qualify for Inspire Excellence at 15, artificers get their first 6th level spell slot at 15, monks get Quivering Palm... and the paladins... that makes 8 out of 13 classes that do get something tangible at 15, with paladins arguably getting less than most - at least if you don't count what the 2nd l4 spell slot gets used for.)

Rogue special ability bonus feats is at lvl 10 and every 3 additional rogue levels after (13, 16, 19)

It should also be noted that at 6, 12, and 18 every class gains +1 BAB and +1 base to all saves.

But generally it's for the enhancement cores.

[EllisDee37]

(Hm, "few classes where the 15th level adds tangible value"? Rogues and wizards get a bonus feat there; clerics, wizards and druids get 8th level spells at 15; bards can qualify for Inspire Excellence at 15, artificers get their first 6th level spell slot at 15, monks get Quivering Palm... and the paladins... that makes 8 out of 13 classes that do get something tangible at 15, with paladins arguably getting less than most - at least if you don't count what the 2nd l4 spell slot gets used for.)

I don't consider wizards and clerics as getting anything of value at 15 because if you're taking any less than 18 levels, you probably aren't building a caster. Even a 16/2/2 shirardi spammer isn't a "caster" in terms of caring much about getting 8th level spells.

Fair point on monks, though; that's a biggee. I don't know bards or artificers at all, so I'll take your word on those.

[Munkenmo]

I don't consider wizards and clerics as getting anything of value at 15 because if you're taking any less than 18 levels, you probably aren't building a caster.

17/2/1 cleric is a really strong casting build, you'll pick up mass heal and implosion, typicaly the 2splash is monk for wisdom stance, and 1wiz or fighter for the bonus feat.

Much like druids it's a small casting sacrifice that opens up a lot of versatility.

Wizzies could go 17/2/1 too, but I feel that their level 18 core is stronger than the cleric / druid options, and arcanes have more useful level 9 spells, increasing the opportunity cost.

[michaelw777]

There's a few reasons for the dips:

1 fighter = bonus feat, haste boost
1 wiz = bonus feat
1 divine = empower heal
1 rogue = traps & 15% attack speed boost with 1/4 staves & umd
1 arti = traps & umd

2 paladin is another obvious one for cha to save bonuses.
2 monk is obvious for 2 feats + evasion
2 rogue is obvious for evasion
2 fighter is for 2 feats, with people often taking hasteboost + extra action boosts.
2 FVS for divine might & just rewards

Some people will take 4 paladin to qualify for empower heal, and divine might and Cha to saves.
Some people are also taking 4 fvs in order to qualify for Ameliorating strike in the warpriest tree (it's a respectable aoe heal)
4 rogue can be appealing to qualify for uncanny dodge (though normally more levels would be taken)

6 is another obvious stepping stone:
6 ranger = manyshot and improved 2wf
6 monk = adept of forms, 3bonus feats, evasion, shadowfade (leaving someone 1 feat shy of a +1 crit mulitplier on 19/20)

8 Fighter is normally the next stepping stone, as this is the point you unlock "centred kensais" Probably most prominant in 8fighter/6monk/6ranger builds

9 is an attractive choice:
9 monk = improved evasion + the previously listed 6monk bonuses
9 druid = qualifying for natural fighting feats and secondary animal form (normally winter wolf)
9 ranger = evasion

11 stands out for ranger, this is a sweet spot for the majority of their bonus feats.

12 is an obvious one as you get the next core ability in all classes.
12 also allows rogues and monks to qualify for their epic feats.

14 for paladin is where they qualify for zeal.

15 monk nets the feat quivering palm
15 bard to qualify for Inspire Excellence

16 is where a lot of shiradi casters settle so they can pick up just rewards from 2fvs, and evasion or saves from 2monk or 2pally

17 is a nice stopping point for DC based clerics, druids and wizards, as they'll get there level 9 spells, and can pick up bonuses from the 2/1 splash options.

18 is an obvious stopping point when people go back to pick up the 1/2 splash bonuses.

20 well, 20 misses out on a lot of opportunities elsewhere for some fairly meager capstone options.

most of the splashes I see now are:
12/6/2 (normally involving monk)
8/6/6 (normally involving monk)
9/9/2 (this is predominantly a past life split I find)
9/8/3 (monk icon centred kensais)
16/2/2 (shiradis, and monks seem to adopt this split)
17/2/1 (often druid/2monk/1wiz)
18/2 (predominantly old melee builds from yesteryear and casters who want level 9 spells, but prefer a splash vs capstone)
20 (the only 20's i see around now are normally casters)

I've missed out plenty of things, because there are plenty of builds, but as a person who's primarily a builder this should hopefully help give you some insight.

Wow - big +1 for this. I'll be bookmarking this one!

[pappo]

The answer to the OP is mostly core abilities, which require 3, 6, 12, 18 and 20 class levels. Some classes also happen to get specific bonuses (usually feats) at 6, like monks. Fighters get their unique super-bonus at 8, paladins at 2.

I'm currently leveling a 15/5 pally/rogue, fully embracing the new enhancement system for a sireth-wielding acrobat build, but for the most part you still get your best power from 2, 6 or 12 class levels.

It's rare that stopping at 5 makes more sense than just adding 1 more level to get to 6. Rogues happen to be one of the few classes where the 6th level doesn't add much, and paladins happen to be one of the few classes where the 15th level adds tangible value over 14 levels.

I have run your Necro Cleric and Pale Trapper and very much enjoyed those builds. I hope you will post your 15/5 pally/rogue staff build. I just finished (lvl 20) a staff build (14/6 Rogue/Monk) and wanted to try another staff build, since my bank if full of staffs. I would like to try a Pally staff build for my TR.

Keep up the great builds.