What were you thinking with epic rogue hires?

[MangLord]

So my elven ranger is now level 23, and I'm focusing on PDK favor at the moment. Given that I'm a second life ranger, and I missed Wheloon on the way up, I decided to get heroic elite completions on the whole chain. I have epic destiny abilities and can easily purchase a rogue hireling to disable those pesky spell wards, so I should be able to breeze through this no problem, right?

Wrong!

My first foray into the chain was Friends In Low Places. The fighting wasn't that big of a deal, but the traps were a lesson in frustration. How does Cassandra, a level 23 rogue, have difficulty searching for traps? Her spot is entirely hopeless, which I assume was designed for players that know where every trap is. Fine.

By the time I get to Army of Shadow, I just dismissed her and chalked it up to a loss. She can't even search the traps in there, and died on a pressure plate trap in front of a chest behind a secret door. I wouldn't think that a level 23 rogue would need any boosts or heroism to search a trap in a level 18 quest. I was so over it that I just cocooned through the spell wards on the way to the end with a chip on my shoulder.

I have to assume that a player hiring a rogue is interested in one thing only, which is trapping. What on earth were you guys thinking with the woeful showing that is the epic rogue hire? What I want is to park them at the start and bring them along as needed. I don't want them actively fighting and running through traps to obsessively kill some shar worshipper. I feel sorry for anyone expecting them to actually trap and let you know when danger is nearby in an unfamiliar quest. My build doesn't have access to greater heroism, and if they can't trap a lvl 18 quest, how would they be expected to handle something at level? I remember them being better in the past, but it could be my imagination.

Long story short, please make the rogue hires competent at their jobs. No one hires a rogue for added DPS.

[toaftoaf]

the hirelings have not used any skill tombs, i bet money thats what happened

[EllisDee37]

Don't forget to scroll GH on them.

[PsychoBlonde]

This may be a result of the traps pass they did a couple of updates ago (I forget which specifically), but they re-scaled trap levels across the game. Lower level traps are now easier but they get harder faster and the high end is pretty high. Also the scaling on non-epic level 17-20 quests is completely borked. You go INSTANTLY from mobs in level 16 quests being CR 25ish on elite and having around 1k HP to mobs being CR 30+ and having 4k HP. Heroic elite mobs in level 18 non-epic quests have MORE HIT POINTS than EPIC HARD mobs in level 25 quests. So, yeah, the trap scaling is probably similarly borktastic. I suspect this nutzola is a holdover from the days where level 17-20 quests *were* the endgame so Elite had an aggressively ramped-up scaling system. Amrath, House Cannith, Inspired Quarter, and the High Road are just spectacularly out of scale with what you'd logically expect from that level. They're a nightmare on elite if you don't have an epic destiny to use for cheesing your way through.

[Vellrad]

Get a wand of dispel magic, and if you got UMD, scroll of greater dispel magic.

[MangLord]

Yeah, whilst soloing HE wheloon, I was surprised at how difficult the enemies were. They were on par with enemies on EH of the first Eveningstar chain. I didn't check HP, but at least they had poor enough saves that I could get them most of the time with paralyzing arrows.

My UMD is around 19-20, so I can't scroll much besides the basics (Raise dead, restoration, teleport), but I'll have to take a trip to the portable hole to see what my chances are on a GH scroll.

What about a fighter or other skillpoint starved class that might not have UMD at all? I guess you're just screwed.

[EllisDee37]

What about a fighter or other skillpoint starved class that might not have UMD at all? I guess you're just screwed.

There are many reasons that UMD is either the first or second most important skill for any class, regardless how many skill points they get. For a fighter I would say it's either the most important by a mile, or just barely edged out by intimidate on an intimitank.

[merridyan]

What about a fighter or other skillpoint starved class that might not have UMD at all?

Put up an LFM?

[Krelar]

Put up an LFM?

Or don't run elite, then you can just run through any traps the hireling can't find.

The level 24 rogue hireling can find most secret doors and disable traps in normal haunted halls so I would guess that he can do any normal quest.

[EllisDee37]

Or don't run elite, then you can just run through any traps the hireling can't find.

The level 24 rogue hireling can find most secret doors and disable traps in normal haunted halls so I would guess that he can do any normal quest.

While I agree on this general point, the OP is complaining about running a heroic elite quest around 5 levels below the level of the epic hireling. Any rogue hire absolutely should be able to handle traps when he's that much overlevel.

[Qhualor]

There are many reasons that UMD is either the first or second most important skill for any class, regardless how many skill points they get. For a fighter I would say it's either the most important by a mile, or just barely edged out by intimidate on an intimitank.

if you are an intimitank than you could probably spare the points for a cross class skill since you would need 13 Int, but for other fighters there is no point in allocating points for a stat that has no other benefit than more skill points when you only really need a few. just assume run Amrath for Draconic necklace, try to farm for Cipher or check the AH to buy one. get into epics and you can just twist for self sufficiency without having to switch out weapon for scrolls while fighting and get more benefit than a fighter could from scrolls too.

[Violith]

While I agree on this general point, the OP is complaining about running a heroic elite quest around 5 levels below the level of the epic hireling. Any rogue hire absolutely should be able to handle traps when he's that much overlevel.

Its not that the rogue couldnt handle it, its that the spot message is small to trust it with hirelings. by the time your see the message, your already in the trap.

as for the chest he is talking about, you cant fully disable that trap. there is a trap box on one side, and the chest on the other, however the blades behind the chest arent disabled. the trap box only disables the traps from the wall infront of the chest.

[EllisDee37]

if you are an intimitank than you could probably spare the points for a cross class skill since you would need 13 Int, but for other fighters there is no point in allocating points for a stat that has no other benefit than more skill points when you only really need a few. just assume run Amrath for Draconic necklace, try to farm for Cipher or check the AH to buy one. get into epics and you can just twist for self sufficiency without having to switch out weapon for scrolls while fighting and get more benefit than a fighter could from scrolls too.

You get two skill points per level no matter what. That lets you maximize UMD plus one other skill. What two skills are both better than UMD for a fighter? I can't even think of one.

[FranOhmsford]

You get two skill points per level no matter what. That lets you maximize UMD plus one other skill. What two skills are both better than UMD for a fighter? I can't even think of one.

Don't forget 5 pts in Jump!

1 pt in Tumble!

And Spot is always nice!

[FranOhmsford]

OP if doing Heroic quests get the Lvl 20 Rogue Hireling - Sullivan Tiehl - He's a High Int Assassin with good trap skills.
OR
The Lvl 21 Rogue Hireling - Lilo Blackstitch - She has Skill Boost II!

The Lvl 23 Rogue Hireling - Cassandra - is a Rogue Acrobat and NOT a TRAPPER!

[Qhualor]

You get two skill points per level no matter what. That lets you maximize UMD plus one other skill. What two skills are both better than UMD for a fighter? I can't even think of one.

balance, heal is good now, no points in jump while leveling can get you into the low 20s in epic levels, I like spot but listen is a good sub on all my melees to see hidden mobs.

if you put points into umd on an int dumped fighter you are looking at around a 20 umd by level 20. while doing so you aren't able to maximize the other skills, but if you have tomes you can eventually put a few points into them by mid levels and on. like I said, you get more benefit by twisting cocoon instead of heavily investing to get umd up for heal scrolls, but if you aren't doing that than a 20ish umd will be sufficient for basic stuff. even so, rather just use clickies that are minimally easy enough to get in the game.

at character creation, every race gets 8 skill points except horc which gets 4 with no investment in Int. points are tight for fighters unless you do allocate points into the stat.

[FranOhmsford]

balance, heal is good now, no points in jump while leveling can get you into the low 20s in epic levels, I like spot but listen is a good sub on all my melees to see hidden mobs.

if you put points into umd on an int dumped fighter you are looking at around a 20 umd by level 20. while doing so you aren't able to maximize the other skills, but if you have tomes you can eventually put a few points into them by mid levels and on. like I said, you get more benefit by twisting cocoon instead of heavily investing to get umd up for heal scrolls, but if you aren't doing that than a 20ish umd will be sufficient for basic stuff. even so, rather just use clickies that are minimally easy enough to get in the game.

at character creation, every race gets 8 skill points except horc which gets 4 with no investment in Int. points are tight for fighters unless you do allocate points into the stat.

Assuming a Base Charisma of 10 {unlikely to be any higher on a Pure Fighter and could easily be lower!} how are you getting 20 UMD at Lvl 20 exactly?

Even if you slot a +8 Wheloon Charisma item that's still only 18 or +4 which added to the 11.5 Skill Points {You've probably used that .5 on Tumble or Swim but whatever} is 15.5!


And the Elephant in the room is that UMD is expected much earlier than Lvl 20 in-game.

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

[Qhualor]

Assuming a Base Charisma of 10 {unlikely to be any higher on a Pure Fighter and could easily be lower!} how are you getting 20 UMD at Lvl 20 exactly?

Even if you slot a +8 Wheloon Charisma item that's still only 18 or +4 which added to the 11.5 Skill Points {You've probably used that .5 on Tumble or Swim but whatever} is 15.5!


And the Elephant in the room is that UMD is expected much earlier than Lvl 20 in-game.

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

actually, I think you are right. its been a long time since I played my fighter so I was going off memory and figured better to guesstimate high than too low.

[Krelar]

Assuming a Base Charisma of 10 {unlikely to be any higher on a Pure Fighter and could easily be lower!} how are you getting 20 UMD at Lvl 20 exactly?

Even if you slot a +8 Wheloon Charisma item that's still only 18 or +4 which added to the 11.5 Skill Points {You've probably used that .5 on Tumble or Swim but whatever} is 15.5!


And the Elephant in the room is that UMD is expected much earlier than Lvl 20 in-game.

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

As far as the first part is concerned.

+1 from +2 CHA ship buffs
+1 from a +2 CHA tome
+1 from Good Luck (voice of the master)
+2 Heroism Pot (not even greater just regular, they can be bought from vendors for cheap)

That gets you to 20 UMD with things that are still easy to acquire.

[Cardtrick]

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

It is very difficult.

I don't think it can be done on a first life character, at least without giving up too many other useful things. People shouldn't expect first life characters without UMD as a class skill to be capable of using heal scrolls in the heroic levels.

Even on a TR, it's tough. My wanna-be-completionist-project is pretty well stocked with old gear, and he still has trouble. Without talking about the CHA modifier, at level 18 you can pretty reasonably have 10 ranks, +3 Competence from a drafted Persuasion item (or Golden Cartouche or Flameward or whatever), +4 morale from GH, +6 exceptional CHA skills from greensteel (thus the requirement to be a TR), +2 luck from Head of Good Fortune. Many of us also have +1 Profane from a Spider Mask . . . but unfortunately that's no longer available to players who weren't around to preorder MOTU. So before CHA modifier, you're talking about sustainable 25 or 26 UMD if you've got most of the relevant gear.

Then for CHA -- you said to start at base 10. Add +3 from tomes (literally anyone can have +3 now, due to the anniversary cards). +8 item from Wheloon. + 2 insight and + 1 exceptional from greensteel swap item (a +9 CHA one-handed weapon is one of the first green steel items I make on any character, usually right after their HP item) That puts you at 24 CHA, which is a mod of 7. So you're at 32 or 33 UMD, depending on whether or not you have a spider mask.

Most people get an additional +1 from the 2 CHA ship buff, although I don't.

Then there are more difficult/exotic ways to boost it further -- a Litany for profane CHA, +4 CHA tome, obviously a UMD skill tome. And there are non-sustainable ways -- skill boosts, potions (Yugo to boost CHA or House D to boost CHA skills).

Basically, it's possible to get Heal scrolls to a 75%+ success rate at level 18 on a fighter starting at 10 CHA. But it takes a lot of investment and so many swap items that it's really not practical.

At those levels, on characters that don't have UMD as a class skill or a really high CHA for other reasons, I just try to be able to cast Greater Heroism with a reasonable level of success. I'm a GH addict. I don't mind having to swap a bunch of items and use a skillboost for a 13 minute buff that will last the duration of most quests, and I also don't mind failing a couple of them (unlike Heal scrolls, where I'd rather just not rely on them if I don't have close to no-fail success rates).