Player Character Balance

[Qhualor]

You are missing the main point. We are all aware that this is Turbines rodeo and they can do as they please, but changing things after people have paid money for them is not what I would call good business practices. People are not crying because of an entitlement problem, they are just upset how Turbine will bring out something very sexy (knowing full well that they will nerf it) and putting it in the store until they meet a quota before they nerf it.

By all means, balance the game however you want. But you cannot convince me that they did not know that the BF recon was OP before it hit lama.

You can say that rebalancing is good for the game, but I am not so sure if their version of balance is going to bring in more players than it loses.

Explain to me than why BF should get special attention and be exempt from character balance? It could very well be a bait/switch but the race is only OP to specific builds and not all. People are jumping the gun on this since the devs haven't even said they will nerf them or do anything at all to them. It could a year if at all before they get to BF reconstruct. I would rather worry about it when they actually do say changes will be made. Right now its all speculation.

[Ungood]

I think, generally, this is what erks me the most. Just because it's an MMO and we're buying
virtual items shouldn't give them free reign do whatever they like.

I think this is where all things hinge.

Some people will believe that because we don't technically own said item, that it remains under the control and possession of Turbine, they can do whatever they like to it.

The other side of the situation is that a person payed money for THAT item as it was, when they bought it, not what it gets changed into at the whim of someone else 6 months down the line.

[SirValentine]

Because then it is no longer Dungeons & Dragons. If that happens a lot of players who play the game for the D&D aspect will most likely leave -- myself included. I play DDO because it's the closest I can get to playing actual D&D, and if the D&D aspect goes away, then I have no reason to ever play this game again.

+1
/signed

[SirValentine]

This.
Alternative: Make the caster level not dependant on character level but on ....PALADIN levels

Heh, nice.

Don't worry, folks, that Paladin caster level is boosted by running in a Divine-sphere ED!

[Chaios]

Ok maybe I am wrong here... 2. We favor and want multiclasses over pure builds because the multiclass is more powereful and we designed the enhancement tree to offer this.

According to what I read, incentives to multiclass were created in order to encourage more variety in character builds, not to make multiclass builds more powerful than single class builds.

I'd type something about most multiclass characters being ranger/rogues, but the most recent ddo oracle breakdown of that kind of information is dated April 2013.

Regarding creating incentive to build a single class character, most of the active enhancements either involve a cool down timer, a dc, or number of uses per rest. Maybe having these increment (or decrement, as the case may be) by a percentage each class level or by a certain amount each tier would help to provide that incentive without swinging the pendulum back to multiclass characters being considered useless mongrels.

[Mercureal]

I think, generally, this is what erks me the most. Just because it's an MMO and we're buying
virtual items shouldn't give them free reign do whatever they like.

I think Vint got it dead on, with regards to this issue. Turbine is selling a service, not a product, and its customers don't own anything within the game. I think everyone realizes this. If they really wanted to, they could transition DDO to My Little Pony online (assuming they could afford to license the IP, of course...). But chances are people would stop paying for the service*, and that's really what it boils down to. They do have total free reign to do whatever they like, with the corollary that people may stop playing in response.

*Disclaimer: Playing a pink-and-purple polka dotted pony wielding a greataxe might actually be kind of amusing.

[Vint]

Explain to me than why BF should get special attention and be exempt from character balance? It could very well be a bait/switch but the race is only OP to specific builds and not all. People are jumping the gun on this since the devs haven't even said they will nerf them or do anything at all to them. It could a year if at all before they get to BF reconstruct. I would rather worry about it when they actually do say changes will be made. Right now its all speculation.

I am just point that if BF did not have the self-heal when they first came in the store, very few people would have paid for them.

My concern is not if they try to balance the game, but did they just now realize they were OP? Any one that knows this game knows that they were OP they day they sold them in the store. Self-heals on a melee? Sign me up!

Waiting so long for them to say that this is “OP” makes me believe that they are only waiting until they sold enough of them before the nerf.

Balancing BF is not the issue, bait/switch is.

I know you personally are not for P2W, but it amuses me to see people that buy advantages all the time in the store come complaining and crucifying people that do not want a BF nerf. It is okay for them to buy mana, xp, slayer pots, bypass, and countless other advantages (asah is another), but they will raise Hell if someone is playing a race/class that has an advantage.

[knockcocker]

I think Vint got it dead on, with regards to this issue. Turbine is selling a service, not a product, and its customers don't own anything within the game. I think everyone realizes this. If they really wanted to, they could transition DDO to My Little Pony online (assuming they could afford to license the IP, of course...). But chances are people would stop paying for the service*, and that's really what it boils down to. They do have total free reign to do whatever they like, with the corollary that people may stop playing in response.

*Disclaimer: Playing a pink-and-purple polka dotted pony wielding a greataxe might actually be kind of amusing.

Well, that's certainly what Turbine would want to happen. However, if you dig around, you'll find that more and more
of cases based on 'ownership' of virtual property are actually being heard in court rather than referred to arbitration.

[knockcocker]

I am just point that if BF did not have the self-heal when they first came in the store, very few people would have paid for them.

My concern is not if they try to balance the game, but did they just now realize they were OP? Any one that knows this game knows that they were OP they day they sold them in the store. Self-heals on a melee? Sign me up!

Right, and this is the crux for me. There's no way this has 'just come to our attention now...'. We're not talking
self heals on a melee we're talking self heals on a melee which starts out at 0.45 healing amp (i.e. 0.1 *worse* than
WF). Seen many WF melee in your raids recently? Arcane healers?

I wish people could see this. The healing amp penalty makes the race useless as melee.

At least they'll sell more True Iconic Hearts if this is nerfed...

Balancing BF is not the issue, bait/switch is.

Indeed.

[Qhualor]

Right, and this is the crux for me. There's no way this has 'just come to our attention now...'. We're not talking
self heals on a melee we're talking self heals on a melee which starts out at 0.45 healing amp (i.e. 0.1 *worse* than
WF). Seen many WF melee in your raids recently? Arcane healers?

I wish people could see this. The healing amp penalty makes the race useless as melee.

At least they'll sell more True Iconic Hearts if this is nerfed...


Indeed.

the BF enhancements are almost the same as Warforged enhancements. they both can reduce the penalty from positive healing to 20% with Healers Friend, but it seems some players are instead taking the Mechanist to improve their repair effects. could the pressure of "be self sufficient" be the reason for this? could be. I was in a group with a cleric last week that complained about BF not having any heal amp. its 2 years ago all over again when divines were complaining the same thing about Warforged. the same problem of either player choice not to invest in heal amp or lack of knowledge about the importance of heal amp. Warforged and Bladeforged are not 100% fleshy, so it makes sense there should be a penalty to positive healing.

[HatsuharuZ]

I agree the the damage that an archer can pull off with an adrenaline-slay arrow-manyshot combination is op.
But nerfing other builds won't make epic elite more viable for a greater variety of builds.

DCs are too high for all but the most concentrated DC Caster builds ( and even then they fall flat once the red-names show up )
Monsters are just hitting too hard for tanks ( without considerable cheap self healing ) to stand their ground.
Monster hp is too high for non-shiradi damage casters to make a serious impact before they run out of power.
Bard boosts that were good enough for heroic aren't scaling to epic.

Until these things are fixed the other class combinations are still going to find themselves lacking in the usefulness department.

I said that it's a *consequence* of, not a way to, make epic elite better for a wider variety of builds. I was saying that if the devs make epic elite a bit less difficult for anyone who isn't a furyshot archer or shiradi caster, than it's okay to nerf furyshot.

[Dalsheel]

If BF did not come with self-heals for melee, how many people would have paid for it?

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.

[EllisDee37]

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.

A fair chunk of people who have bladeforged also got it from preordering Shadowfell.

[knockcocker]

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.

What?
Where do you get your statistics from?

83% of people don't agree with you.

[knockcocker]

the BF enhancements are almost the same as Warforged enhancements. they both can reduce the penalty from positive healing to 20% with Healers Friend, but it seems some players are instead taking the Mechanist to improve their repair effects. could the pressure of "be self sufficient" be the reason for this? could be. I was in a group with a cleric last week that complained about BF not having any heal amp. its 2 years ago all over again when divines were complaining the same thing about Warforged. the same problem of either player choice not to invest in heal amp or lack of knowledge about the importance of heal amp. Warforged and Bladeforged are not 100% fleshy, so it makes sense there should be a penalty to positive healing.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about the merits of whether BF/WF should
have a positive healing penalty or not.

Without the reconstruct SLA, BF are just worse WF melee. All the other enhancements are just fluff.

Even with all 3 lines of Healer's Friend you're only at something like 72% healing amp. This just isn't
enough. Remember, the main consensus of this thread was performance in Epic Elite. Are characters
with .72% healing amp and no reliable self healing going to be welcome in many EE groups - especially
BYOH ones?. As others have pointed out, if this ability is nerfed too hard it kills the race dead as
a choice for melee characters.

[Free2Pay]

I think it's long overdue that we get a Manyshot version for thrown weapons. Let melees enjoy some benefit from Shiradi please.

[Bargol]

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.

Anyone who did not get bladeforge with the preorder bought it just for the self healing. Saying its lore or any other reason is complete BS.

[Qhualor]

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about the merits of whether BF/WF should
have a positive healing penalty or not.

Without the reconstruct SLA, BF are just worse WF melee. All the other enhancements are just fluff.

Even with all 3 lines of Healer's Friend you're only at something like 72% healing amp. This just isn't
enough. Remember, the main consensus of this thread was performance in Epic Elite. Are characters
with .72% healing amp and no reliable self healing going to be welcome in many EE groups - especially
BYOH ones?. As others have pointed out, if this ability is nerfed too hard it kills the race dead as
a choice for melee characters.

I disagree. I have had no complaints from others with my Healers Friend maxxed out. the complaints I have heard about are BF that don't invest in it. I am also doing 3x Paladin lives for the extra 15% and only have 1x past life so far. my positive healing will never be as good as a fleshy can be, but certainly not so bad. if BF players want to improve their positive heal amp and not be a burden when others try to heal them, than they should be investing in Healers Friend and Paladin past lives are a good incentive. if that BF tree is only good because of the reconstruct, than its a weak race. I don't see it that way at all. since the Warforged tree is almost the same, that would mean that tree is also weak. I don't see it that way at all either. investment in heal amp has always been a priority in this game. its a poor player choice if they don't want to do any of that just for maxxed out benefits from reconstruct.

as ive said from the beginning, reconstruct doesn't need to be nerfed in any way for melees. maybe for caster builds so when/if the devs do make a change, they need to take that into consideration.

[azrael4h]

Anyone who did not get bladeforge with the preorder bought it just for the self healing. Saying its lore or any other reason is complete BS.

Hey, they make outstanding mules. Being level 15, and self-healing, they have no problems running low level content to get favor for the free bags/bank slots. That's what my, and most of my guildies' use BF for. Of course, we all got them with the Shadowfail preorder, so we didn't buy them outright. I did buy the Cleric one though, since that gives my guild an extra healer at that level range.

[Cardtrick]

if that BF tree is only good because of the reconstruct, than its a weak race. I don't see it that way at all. since the Warforged tree is almost the same, that would mean that tree is also weak. I don't see it that way at all either.

Warforged is a weak tree for a melee. Or, more correctly, it's not a strong enough tree to make up for the inherent disadvantages of the class.

150% healing amp is the least I'll ever consider running with if I can't self heal well, and 200% is really the minimum it takes for me to be content. More is better. Hitting those targets on a warforged or bladeforged is extremely difficult, requiring major gear investment and maxed out Healer's Friend, along with probably paladin past lives and class enhancements. Doing it on a human is pretty easy. That alone means that I would never consider a warforged melee (or a bladeforged if Reconstruct is changed).