Player Character Balance

[knockcocker]

The epic destiny power survey clearly shows that shiradi champion is considered by the player base as the most power epic destiny. And it has nothing to do with shiradi archers. It has everything to do with Shiradi arcane casters.

No, it only shows what people who responded to the survey thought. This != the player base.

This is what I find dangerous about this approach. You're only polling the people who
care enough to moan about it, have an axe to grind or have a vested interest in preserving
the status quo - entirely the wrong source IMO.

The most meaningful statistic is those who chose not to respond to the survey at all.

[Portalcat]

The whole, "...but a lot of people bought Bladeforged for the reconstruct and will be very upset at a nerf!" is kind of humorous to me. Isn't that a great point of evidence for the fact that it's in the pantheon of abilities currently good enough to warp the whole metagame, and has earned some scrutiny?

Look, every nerf stinks, even when it's obvious that it's necessary. See the amazing number of rationalizations and contortions about how U20 VoN3 epic XP was good for the game even though it was a nerf many people saw coming from a mile away and one that didn't invalidate anyone's character. Whoever gets nerfed is out significant time and/or money, and understandably feels burned. Nerfs are therefore something you want to avoid unless it's really clearly overpowered.



The entire point of this thread, though, was to take the temperature on game balance, and get as good a consensus from the players themselves on the state of what's too strong and too weak as possible. There will never be a better juncture for a nerf. If not nerf things now, then when?

I, for one, think nerfs should a be a game design tool that can at least be invoked on occasion. If this is one such occasion where it makes a lot of sense, then nerf away. I will adapt. I don't feel entitled to overpowered synergies forever just because they exist and I found them once.

[knockcocker]

What’s specific items do players consider overpowered?
...
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

[Portalcat]

No, it only shows what people who responded to the survey thought.

There's definitely a selection bias here, and you could definitely design a better survey simply by sending something out to a more select group of people who would be in a better position to know what they're talking about.



If I were in Turbine's shoes, I'd come up with a set of criteria that finds the low 3-figure number of active EE regulars per server, and send those people a survey, perhaps with a small incentive for completing it. Get the min-maxers of the world to tell you what's good and what's bad; they have expertise on the topic and it would be wise to give their opinions more weight. It still won't be perfect, but I think your signal-to-noise ratio would be much better.

[slarden]

No one is "focusing on nerfing multi-classing". If you got that impression from the writeup, perhaps we were not clear enough.

Understood. I guess my main point is to improve the benefits of taking 20 levels in a single class. It isn't as good as the benefits you get from multi-classing. The capstone needs some love.

[slarden]

You are right on what those splashes give. But then the natural question is: why not multiclass then? It is an option open to all classes. Why not use it if it is so good? Moreover, why should the 20 levels of a single class be equal to the benefit of splashing?? Sure, Bard 20 should get also +30 saves, +1000 spell points, +700% damage, ranged aoe instadeath spell, and instant quest completion button.

Funny that "Rather than focusing on nerfing multi-classing, you should consider boosting the capstone" line D Dialectics, implied premise recourse: "After stealing the money, did you spend it?" asked to someone who did not steal it.

Again, multiclass is not the cause of any imbalance, it is precisely (!!) multiclassing that brings balance to the classes, to the game. It actually creates character balance (!!). Also this are the core rules of this game. Multiclass options have already always been taken into account for DnD and DDO game construction. Always. No, it is not the "it has always been like this" argument, it is the "we play basketball and the ball is spherical, not squared, and it is a core rule which won't change" argument. You have n heroic levels, and you can take levels from max 3 classes. Choose wisely. Plan ahead.

The thread should have been named maybe "character and playstyle balance". I applaud the synthesis and the conclusions given by the devs on all the discussion. I feel they are listening very carefully and making a monumental effort in building and developing this deep, vast, complex, multidimensional and incredibly entertaining world of DDO.

The benefits of multi-classing in DDO are far greater than the benefits of multi-classing in P&P D&D.

I propose boosting the capstone and/or other benefits to match the benefits of multi-classing - not to exceed those benefits. This thread is about character balance. Boosting the benefits of a pure level 20 class would bring more balance to the game.

[twigzz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

Yeah gonna have to agree to here.....

[Thar]

No one is "focusing on nerfing multi-classing". If you got that impression from the writeup, perhaps we were not clear enough.

lets be fair, the history of the game has not been one of "this class needs help lets fix or buff it up" it's been how are the players enjoying the game, lets take that away instead of finding other methods to limit those mobs. ie wounding puncturing (both in this case as non death and then mob stat regen killed any usefullness of this), instadeath, batman builds, ddoor scrolls (still don't get this one), etc etc. people put time and now possible real money into their builds. you take that away in any form and people will get fed up and leave. Imagine you had spent 6 months ETR spending x dollars on making your monk into some superforce or buying items that compliemented the build and it was all removed from a coding change. is it better than some noob who hit 20 for the first time. of course. is it fair... yes, you spent the time. At some point you say what is the point and move on to something else rather than find another build and work months at that. Is that what the game needs at this point? lfm's are scarce. it can't afford to drive more people away.

ie many people see ranged combat as too strong but rangers and arti's are not strong classes... why. not because you can do massive damage as a ranger but because you can live in epic content. does that need a nerf. no... look at barbarians... why the enhancements don't do much to help that class survive. why rage when you cant use half of the epic spells/twists. a few pts to hit and damage is not saving you in epic. Pally's can hardly spend any points in the damage enhancement line since the defense line is too crazy expensive. again, do some dps and get hit or do little dps and... still get hit but 5-10% less. your still not surviving in epic.

ending comment.. buff those classes that need help. pally/bard/barb and find someway of fixing ac to allow melee to survive at endgame. leave the rest alone...

[EllisDee37]

If I were in Turbine's shoes, I'd come up with a set of criteria that finds the low 3-figure number of active EE regulars per server, and send those people a survey, perhaps with a small incentive for completing it. Get the min-maxers of the world to tell you what's good and what's bad; they have expertise on the topic and it would be wise to give their opinions more weight. It still won't be perfect, but I think your signal-to-noise ratio would be much better.

That's an excellent idea, and I'm not even one of those people.

Maybe offer a "survey reward box" which gives your choice of any one heart. (lesser+0, heroic, epic or iconic.)

[Recared]

I propose boosting the capstone and/or other benefits to match the benefits of multi-classing - not to exceed those benefits. This thread is about character balance. Boosting the benefits of a pure level 20 class would bring more balance to the game.

Yes the thread is about character balance, not "pure class" balance (actually the thread is about playstyle/character balance). What you suggest is not viable unless you completely destroy the very essence of the game. We have a different, almost opposite concept of the game...

[Hathorian]

Something will always be the best.

The goal should be for at least the top 10-20 builds to be a few % behind the best one, at most.

5% behind the best is viable. 25% behind the best is marginal. 60% behind the best is unplayable in any content designed for the better builds.

so all builds are the same then, gotcha.

[Hathorian]

Sledgehammer Nerfs incoming:

• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

So I finally build a BF monkcher and almost right away you say you are going to nerf them. That is very disappointing.

[danlan]

Sledgehammer Nerfs incoming:

• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

So I finally build a BF monkcher and almost right away you say you are going to nerf them. That is very disappointing.

IMHO, Shiradi Arcane Caster is far more worse than Bladeforged Reconstruct.

[Hathorian]

I don't understand why nerfs are needed. Buff up a few things (melee defense, etc) and we should be good to go.

I think the last few charts are pretty useless btw. Different classes are more or less effective at different levels and in different quests and to to try to say which ones, overall, are the most of least powerful is kind of pointless.

[Hathorian]

IMHO, Shiradi Arcane Caster is far more worse than Bladeforged Reconstruct.

Have you played both of them to level 28?

[danlan]

Have you played both of them to level 28?

I play a BF 14 wiz/4 fvs/2 monk shiradi, with 18 past lives and 9 epic lives and best geared.

Bladeforged= recon sla,

Shiradi arcane caster offers= better dps than any other casters when saves matter
= stay ranged
= best saves (thanks to the ease of multiclass 2 monk/2 pal with little opportunity cost)
= not affected by monster saves at all
= occasional tea time

In essence, with no real trade-offs Shiradi arcane caster gets:

= top notch dps
= best defense
= self healing
= best sustainability (thanks to the ease of multiclass 2-4 fvs with little opportunity cost)
= shiradi arcane requires little player skills which makes it a no brainer cookie cutter and it is way too effective than it should be.

[Chaimberland]

No one is "focusing on nerfing multi-classing". If you got that impression from the writeup, perhaps we were not clear enough.

Even if Turbine isn't focusing on nerfing multi-classing something still needs to be done to improve the cap stone for pure characters. From reading many of the posts in this thread this subject was brought up several times but wasn't addressed in your assessment . D&D is suppose to be about having many viable choices, but with multi-classing being so powerful compared to going pure, there just isn't a tough choice here. In fact right now its a no-brainer.

But you don't have to nerf multi-classing to even this out. Just improve the capstone so that when people consider their builds they have to think, "okay, if I splash a couple levels of x class with y class I'll get this. But if I go pure I'll get this instead which is also really good. Hmmm, which way to go?" If you can improve the capstone enough to make people at least pause for 5 to 10 seconds before making a decision then I'd think that would be a good thing.

[Hathorian]

I play a BF 14 wiz/4 fvs/2 monk shiradi, with 18 past lives and 9 epic lives and best geared.

Bladeforged= recon sla,

Shiradi arcane caster offers= better dps than any other casters when saves matter
= stay ranged
= best saves (thanks to the ease of multiclass 2 monk/2 pal with little opportunity cost)
= not affected by monster saves at all
= occasional tea time

In essence, with no real trade-offs Shiradi arcane caster gets:

= top notch dps
= best defense
= self healing
= best sustainability (thanks to the ease of multiclass 2-4 fvs with little opportunity cost)
= unlike moncher, shiradi requires little player skills which makes it a no brainer cookie cutter and it is way too effective than it should be.

I agree that monkcher takes more skill, but so far I have to say monkcher has more burst dps than shiradi caster does. In any event, I don't see why any nerfs are needed.

The term “crab mentality” is used to describe a kind of selfish, short-sighted thinking that runs along the lines of “if I can't have it, neither can you.” This term is especially widely used to refer to people who pull other people down, denigrating them rather than letting them get ahead or pursue their dreams. As a general rule, an accusation of having this type of mentality is a poor reflection on someone's personality.

This concept references an interesting phenomenon that occurs in buckets of crabs. If one crab attempts to escape from a bucket of live crabs, the others will pull it back down rather than allowing it to get free. Sometimes, the crabs seem almost malicious, waiting until the crab has almost escaped before yanking it back into the pot. All of the crabs are undoubtedly aware of the fact that their fate is probably not going to be very pleasurable, so people are led to wonder why they pull each other back into the bucket instead of helping the clever escape artist.

This way of thinking is a reflection of the famous saying “we all like to see our friends get ahead, but not too far ahead.” People who learn to recognize it in themselves can often find ways of counteracting it, which is a very good idea, especially for those who work or live in a highly competitive environment.

[Qhualor]

Sledgehammer Nerfs incoming:

• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

So I finally build a BF monkcher and almost right away you say you are going to nerf them. That is very disappointing.

Actually, Varg didn't say they would be nerfed. He said they would be looked into down the road, just not right now.

The only one of those I think should be nerfed is 10k stars. Rather see it work with shuriken than with arrows, but if it stays as is than it shouldn't work with manyshot or a decrease in effectability.

[Ivan_Milic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

Are people really surprised by this?
This isnt even 100th time turbine does this.