Player Character Balance

[BigErkyKid]

I think that it would be interesting to see what the devs propose as an alternative to some of the builds that currently are regarded as OP.

To talk specifics:

1. The monkcher: As ranger players pointed out, without the monkcher style combinations the DPS of an archer drops a lot.
Granted that survivability + very high DPS trump melees, but if you take out the "monkcher DPS", where do rangers stand?

I am curious regarding that, could anyone give some numbers of say a pure shiradi ranger?

2. The shiradi caster: From my own experience and based on reading the forums, the viable option for a nuker in end game is based on shiradi.
I don't know if this is WAI, if it is, it does look a bit weird.

Basically the best nuker becomes the one who can buy more tickets on the shiradi proc lottery. DC's being very high, this seems the to go option for a sorc that does not want to blow his/her SP bar in a few fights. So a sorc has to rely on the procs of an ED that was not designed to be an arcane ED (outside the arcane sphere). I assume it was initially meant to provide some twists, not to be the full destiny.

So suppose they don't allow for full spell power to affect the shiradi procs. Where would sorcs be then? Would they be viable in end game? I asked in my guild and looked at my own experience as a sorc and I honestly cannot find a top notch build which does not rely on shiradi.

It seems to me that, as pointed out by other people, these builds are an answer to the inability of more "traditional approaches" to deal with end game. It is extremely frustrating to build for DC to see mobs evading non stop or trash eating your blue bar in a few fights. I guess it is equally frustrating to have to shoot a million arrows to kill something.

Melees do seem to be able to do damage in more orthodox ways, but then they suffer enormously from a lack of capacity to survive the hits of the mobs.

So, what are alternatives to current OP builds?

************************************************** ************************************************** **

On a completely different topic. Suppose that the OP builds are not changed.

A solution could be to boost survivability of melee, as some people propose. However, by how much? What is the PRR; AC and dodge/incorp and elemental resistance that equates to a kiter? It has to be pretty **** high. Granted, in so far that melees could do a bit more damage than ranged, they wouldn't need as much defense (it is unclear to me whether the average melee can do more damage than an average OP ranged, I would say no but I don't know what others thing). So again, what would have to be the numbers?

In my opinion, it would have to be too high. I think that it needs to be a combination of nerfing damage of ranged options AND increasing survivability of the poor people restricted to close quarters. In addition, I would favor the inclusion of some kiting nerf, like decreased backpedalling spead (doesn't need to be for everyone, just curve it so that it hits worst the ones at the top).

Some evidence, the video of a FOT EE solo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KooRBgbm3Iw

[Eth]

I think that it would be interesting to see what the devs propose as an alternative to some of the builds that currently are regarded as OP.

2. The shiradi caster:

Alternative: The DC caster.

That wasn't too hard...

[Daze]

And i have to agree with her ! Monkchers in particular have so many advantages over the pure ranger .

Movement speed for kiting those fast mobs , Better saves , Improved evasion , Better APR= Arrows per minute , Which translates too more dps ! Better healing amp , Better defense from poor design .......... Robes !!!

And they get a better critical profile !! Where is there a feat or an enhancement outside of improved critical or overwhelming for the pure build without being unreasonable and going heavily into a near useless destiny ??

Monkchers and there variants " And i will add 12/8 rogue ranger into that mix as well " Are so op that i believe they left out the expanded crit profile on new bows to try and keep them at bay !! While at the same time hurting anyone who stays pure !!

So they heavily outdo a 20 AA ranger !!

There is no tradeoff what so ever !! Wait rangers can get more use out of doubleshot " They do as well "

But who cares about doubleshot when you can have a superior version of it named 10k stars !!


All this and at the same time i will agree that a slayer arrow should only work on the first arrow as well for any class that incorporates its use , But at the same time they would make everything else work like this and severely gimp rangers and ranged classes all together !!

And if they do put a nerf bat/fix in for adrenaline+slayer then they need to look at making another destiny explicitly for ranged , And i mean all types of ranged combat , Preferably a dps destiny for ranged combat !!

Shiradi could of been so much more , Running in shiradi as a ranged user means you really don't have a dps or worthy epic moment . Yeah tea is cool for utility . ill have more later

First of all ... that person you are agreeing with has a ranger and a monkcher and here is the difference between them.

"My Pure Build hits 68 to 75 points of damage per shot fired. My Monkcher hits 158 to 273 per shot fired. That is both of them with no ship buffs, no self buffs, and no adrenaline or slaying arrows or manyshots or 10k stars going that's just a normal fired shot. Both using the Silver Longbow. The highest number I have seen my Pure Build hit for was 258 with a Slaying Arrow."

So you are saying you think these numbers are realistic? I believe they invalidate the whole post. Monks get 10k stars/zen archery/shuriken for ranged ... that's it. Nothing else in the class or enhancement tree effects arrows at all. So if you have a lvl 20 ranger vs lvl 20 monk with comparable points spent in deepwood stalker/AA trees same gear same stats and you are getting this wild a variation in numbers between archer and monkcher ... than something isn't OP its broken.



The perks a monkcher gets they pay for. Keep in mind that in order to use 10k stars you must have ki ... you must be centered within weight restrictions, you can only use robes and certain weapons ... even having to take a feat in order to use bows. On top of that you have to have a decent wisdom .... 42 being the goal but not the limit. It is a fair trade vs. the pure ranger. You sacrifice quite a bit to get that extra feature from the monk class.

What do rangers get? What is the doubleshot capstone again? 25% now isn't it? Seems to me that you guys are getting enough doubleshot to compare with 10k stars now .... sure a monk might still be able to get a few more shots in by amping up his wisdom a bit more but it's still a trade off.... how else are they going to get the extra wisdom?

Where is the mismatch?


I've laid all this out before about 30 pages or so back ... still haven't heard the proof of imbalance between rangers and monkchers.

[BigErkyKid]

Alternative: The DC caster.

That wasn't too hard...

Well, I was refering to the nuke cathegory. But since you bring it up, the effort to build a DC caster viable in end game is a lot more than what it takes to create a shiradi spammer. I am talking about gear, past lifes and effort to play well. I talk from experience, but you can very well go on the forums and see what the top builds for each one require.

So suppose they nerf the easy button shiradi spammer. What is left to sorcs in end game? is it a viable option? I am curious, maybe I am missing something (been asking guildies, they cannot come up with a powerful sustainable build either).

[BigErkyKid]

First of all ... that person you are agreeing with has a ranger and a monkcher and here is the difference between them.

"My Pure Build hits 68 to 75 points of damage per shot fired. My Monkcher hits 158 to 273 per shot fired. That is both of them with no ship buffs, no self buffs, and no adrenaline or slaying arrows or manyshots or 10k stars going that's just a normal fired shot. Both using the Silver Longbow. The highest number I have seen my Pure Build hit for was 258 with a Slaying Arrow."

So you are saying you think these numbers are realistic? I believe they invalidate the whole post. Monks get 10k stars/zen archery/shuriken for ranged ... that's it. Nothing else in the class or enhancement tree effects arrows at all. So if you have a lvl 20 ranger vs lvl 20 monk with comparable points spent in deepwood stalker/AA trees same gear same stats and you are getting this wild a variation in numbers between archer and monkcher ... than something isn't OP its broken.



The perks a monkcher gets they pay for. Keep in mind that in order to use 10k stars you must have ki ... you must be centered within weight restrictions, you can only use robes and certain weapons ... even having to take a feat in order to use bows. On top of that you have to have a decent wisdom .... 42 being the goal but not the limit. It is a fair trade vs. the pure ranger. You sacrifice quite a bit to get that extra feature from the monk class.

What do rangers get? What is the doubleshot capstone again? 25% now isn't it? Seems to me that you guys are getting enough doubleshot to compare with 10k stars now .... sure a monk might still be able to get a few more shots in by amping up his wisdom a bit more but it's still a trade off.... how else are they going to get the extra wisdom?

Where is the mismatch?


I've laid all this out before about 30 pages or so back ... still haven't heard the proof of imbalance between rangers and monkchers.

I have never looked very carefully into those builds, but if we are talking end game, why is it that I see monkchers post big achievements in the forums and not pure rangers? Why is it that I barely see any pure rangers in end game, but I see many monkchers? I am not claiming this is a proof, but it is some indication that there are benefits.

As a first take at it, I would say that abundant step, stances and improved speed (important when kiting) are pretty handy things to have.

[Eth]

Well, I was refering to the nuke cathegory. But since you bring it up, the effort to build a DC caster viable in end game is a lot more than what it takes to create a shiradi spammer. I am talking about gear, past lifes and effort to play well. I talk from experience, but you can very well go on the forums and see what the top builds for each one require.

So suppose they nerf the easy button shiradi spammer. What is left to sorcs in end game? is it a viable option? I am curious, maybe I am missing something (been asking guildies, they cannot come up with a powerful sustainable build either).

Nuke cathegory? Yes, DC casters. High evocation/enchant DC. That's how you play a nuker outside of shiradi.

I played a shiradi spammer, I played a DC caster. I like the DC caster way more.

What's left for sorcs? Draconic.

Turbine already made adjustments. Higher DCs are easier to reach.
At the moment I see DC casters ahead of shiradi spammers. So what do you want to balance by nerfing shiradi?
Shiradi is less powerful but requires less effort. Sounds balanced to me.

[Teh_Troll]

That wasn't too hard...

That's what SHE said.

[elvesunited]

I think the logic behind the archer is that eventually they'd achieve enough doubleshot% that they'd stop using manyshot as it would lower their overall dps. This seems to me to be the answer. Give the top level core ranger enhancement abilities ( level 18 and 20 required core enhancements ) a boost. Monkchers effectively abandon doubleshot in favor of manyshot and ten thousand stars. So doubleshot does nothing for them.

As for the rest. Slay arrow+adrenaline is really an example of unintended synergy. I simply wouldn't allow both of them to be used at the same time.

From my experience, archers are often out-dps'd by melee and casters. I once saw a pure rogue absolutely dominate a pinion armed monkcher on the kill tally. I was impressed. ( and somewhat confused ) The big problem comes with bosses.

1) DC spellcaster simply aren't effective against red-named which are immune to most special effects.
2) nuker spellcaster run out of spellpoints. ( Even Shiradi slow down )
3) melee attackers simply can't stand toe to toe with many red-named. ( which from a role playing perspective might be realistic )

But the archer ( with limited item wear, high evasion, unlimited ammunition, self healing, and lots of temporary spell points ) can last forever. ( assuming that they don't get caught by some sort of hold ability ) And that is their real power.

[BigErkyKid]

Nuke cathegory? Yes, DC casters. High evocation/enchant DC. That's how you play a nuker outside of shiradi.

I played a shiradi spammer, I played a DC caster. I like the DC caster way more.

What's left for sorcs? Draconic.

Turbine already made adjustments. Higher DCs are easier to reach.
At the moment I see DC casters ahead of shiradi spammers. So what do you want to balance by nerfing shiradi?
Shiradi is less powerful but requires less effort. Sounds balanced to me.

Do you have any link to a good DC based nuker build?

[Daze]

I have never looked very carefully into those builds, but if we are talking end game, why is it that I see monkchers post big achievements in the forums and not pure rangers? Why is it that I barely see any pure rangers in end game, but I see many monkchers? I am not claiming this is a proof, but it is some indication that there are benefits.

As a first take at it, I would say that abundant step, stances and improved speed (important when kiting) are pretty handy things to have.

Indeed abundant step and run speed are the bread and butter of kiting.

The question is why nerf kiting when there are no viable alternatives?

Melee range is generally suicide against the bosses except for the rare tank which is way under powered in any other aspect to the point of being not only non viable but downright boring. Even against trash mobs .... all but tanks.

Casters are gimped when it comes to red named .... limited spells effecting them and a limited mana pool with which to do DPS (even shiradi drink pots in a long Fire on Thunder Peak) and the hit points are so high that even the big nukes barely move the bar.

That leaves ranged characters. Rangers are meant to be a blend of both range and melee. Monkchers generally don't melee at all. It's a specialized way of completing end game. It's not the only way but to many it is preferred as it is clean with low risk. Add in some skill at playing and it is an indestructible play style. You arent guaranteed to solo EE FoT as that video .... I'd even be willing to bet that Sestra died in several attempts of that solo before filming it. All of those past lives and all of those greensteel clickies and all of the yugo pots and abashai cookies .... for multiple attempts at 1 roll for raid loot. Hours spent and resources wasted for raid loot which a 12 person raid could get 12 chances at in 15 minutes.

My next question is ... who cares? I mean why bother with all of that effort to get a chest that probably has nothing worthwhile in it? Nerfing an entire playstyle because someone went after bragging rights doesn't make any sense to me. Even more so when it is a very skilled player with a lot of time and effort invested in the class at the far end of the curve..... Like I've said before. I've seen a video of a barbarian soloing WGU .. it doesn't mean nerf barbarians or melee are overpowered. It means that is a skilled player.

[Eth]

Do you have any link to a good DC based nuker build?

Comon - first topic sorc class forum at the moment:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-EE-DPS-Build

[BigErkyKid]

Indeed abundant step and run speed are the bread and butter of kiting.

The question is why nerf kiting when there are no viable alternatives?

Melee range is generally suicide against the bosses except for the rare tank which is way under powered in any other aspect to the point of being not only non viable but downright boring. Even against trash mobs .... all but tanks.

Casters are gimped when it comes to red named .... limited spells effecting them and a limited mana pool with which to do DPS (even shiradi drink pots in a long Fire on Thunder Peak) and the hit points are so high that even the big nukes barely move the bar.

That leaves ranged characters. Rangers are meant to be a blend of both range and melee. Monkchers generally don't melee at all. It's a specialized way of completing end game. It's not the only way but to many it is preferred as it is clean with low risk. Add in some skill at playing and it is an indestructible play style. You arent guaranteed to solo EE FoT as that video .... I'd even be willing to bet that Sestra died in several attempts of that solo before filming it. All of those past lives and all of those greensteel clickies and all of the yugo pots and abashai cookies .... for multiple attempts at 1 roll for raid loot. Hours spent and resources wasted for raid loot which a 12 person raid could get 12 chances at in 15 minutes.

I agree with you fully on the fact that this seems to be viable the way to deal with questing in EE (the tough ones). But that doesn't seem to be a good design of the difficulty plus there an evident lack of balance. What I am worried about is that if quests remain as it is, it is hardly possible that they will boost melees survivability to the level it would be required to match the kiting defense.

Now, as for the sorc posted (I was already aware of this one). I would have to play it. I am not convinced by it, to be honest. According to the damage reported by people in the thread, it doesn't seem to be a big difference with a MM shiradi spammer. In addition, it relies on DC which is hard to come by and I don't know if not fail proof for harder content. I would very much prefer to see the videos of his performance. Self healing is also a bit more tricky than the easy quickened reconstruct, as I can see. Overall Im not sure this is more powerful than a spammer and certainly harder to get. Am I missing something?

[EllisDee37]

Like I've said before. I've seen a video of a barbarian soloing WGU .. it doesn't mean nerf barbarians or melee are overpowered. It means that is a skilled player.

That is indeed a very skilled player, but that particular achievement is quite attainable by most anyone due it being based on three key factors:

1) Max con build to give immunity to most spells even on EE via spell resistance (occult slayer capstone)
2) Master's Blitz
3) Silver Flame pots for self-healing

The skill of that player shone through during the many sections he wasn't blitzing (invisizerging) but the basic concepts listed above make that run doable by most anybody. Possibly even on a first life.

[Sam1313]

Snipped

Indeed abundant step and run speed are the bread and butter of kiting.

The question is why nerf kiting when there are no viable alternative?

That leaves ranged characters. Rangers are meant to be a blend of both range and melee. Monkchers generally don't melee at all. It's a specialized way of completing end game.

Rangers do suffer a penalty to shots while running backwards. In order for a AA Ranger to get the feat shot on the run (Link here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Shot_on_the_Run ) They first have to take Point blank shot (which is a pre req if your going archer) so No big deal there. But then they have to take the dodge feat and give up the critical ranged feat, ok THEN they have to take the Mobility feat and give up the Improved Critical Ranged feat. Then Finally at level 15 they can obtain Shot on the Run. This actually hurts the ranger in the low to mid levels but they can gain at least critical ranged back at around 18 but then Improved critical ranged gets left off. Lets face it the capstone for a pure build AA Ranger just sucks period. As do all the capstones for all the pure builds except the casters. That's why so many people multiclass now days. What most Archer WONT tell you is that they MISS a lot while running and trying to fire their bows. Why? well it makes them look bad. But the shots they do hit with while running and kiting is usually from the manyshots, That's why they draw the aggro. If it was a single shot while running then the monsters would not even give the Archer a thought.
So no more about the nerfing or changing of the way archers kite. Now I cannot speak for the Monkchers they seem to do more damage than a pure build archer does with manyshots so kiting for them may be different.

[Daze]

That is indeed a very skilled player, but that particular achievement is quite attainable by most anyone due it being based on three key factors:

1) Max con build to give immunity to most spells even on EE via spell resistance (occult slayer capstone)
2) Master's Blitz
3) Silver Flame pots for self-healing

The skill of that player shone through during the many sections he wasn't blitzing (invisizerging) but the basic concepts listed above make that run doable by most anybody. Possibly even on a first life.

Most anyone playing a barbarian .... as you need to be pure barb to get that cap stone. You also need the skills to pull it off. That speaks to the player more than the need for a nerf and that follows over to the current supposed OP builds. The skill of the player is what makes those videos possible so the videos aren't proof imho of anything other than bragging rights.

[Eth]

Now, as for the sorc posted (I was already aware of this one). I would have to play it. I am not convinced by it, to be honest. According to the damage reported by people in the thread, it doesn't seem to be a big difference with a MM shiradi spammer. In addition, it relies on DC which is hard to come by and I don't know if not fail proof for harder content. I would very much prefer to see the videos of his performance. Self healing is also a bit more tricky than the easy quickened reconstruct, as I can see. Overall Im not sure this is more powerful than a spammer and certainly harder to get. Am I missing something?

Don't think wizza has some videos, but moo_cow has a nice video collection of his top notch sorc in action.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX0...KywFaE3IJoomoA

[Alfhild]

What do rangers get? What is the doubleshot capstone again? 25% now isn't it? Seems to me that you guys are getting enough doubleshot to compare with 10k stars now .... sure a monk might still be able to get a few more shots in by amping up his wisdom a bit more but it's still a trade off.... how else are they going to get the extra wisdom?

Where is the mismatch?


I've laid all this out before about 30 pages or so back ... still haven't heard the proof of imbalance between rangers and monkchers.

Based on the previous testing:

t
Just did a small amount of testing to add some data. Over 100 shots with 48 wisdom

1 star: 10 (10%)
2 stars: 51 (51%)
3 stars: 33 (33%)
4 stars: 6 (6%)

So assuming this testing has some validity, we can say that Monkchers with 48 have a 90% chance to get an extra arrow using 10K stars and 40% chance to get 2 extra arrows. If we then negate the 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes where both Ranger and Monkcher can employ Manyshot we are left with 100 seconds out of every 2 minutes where they are not Manyshotting.
For a monkcher therefore, during that 100 secs there are 60secs where they have the above mentioned chances to shoot extra arrows.
Compare this to a ranger who during that 100 sec period suffers a 50sec Doubleshot debuff where he is single-shotting leaving 50secs where he is doubleshotting. How much doubleshot can a Ranger realistically stack? Optimally he can stack say about 70% assuming the player gets the 20% capstone on Lam and is also an elf with 3 Primal past lives who is able to killsteal 100% of the time to maintain his Killer streak. This is of course an unrealistic best-case scenario but let's use it.

So during the 100sec non-Manyshot period, the 'perfect' Ranger averages a 35% chance to proc an extra arrow.

During the same period, the Monkcher gets an average of about 30% chance to proc an extra arrow, 25% chance to proc two extra arrows and about a 1% chance to proc 3 extra arrows.
However by proccing extra arrows beyond the first, that means the overall chance to proc an extra arrow during that 100 secs is 30+50+3 for 83%.

So there we have a significant disparity but even that disparity is not the real disparity.

Assuming both are in FotW, you need to concentrate on the 7 adrenalines you get to use OUTSIDE of the epic moment since the Epic Moment is a wash for both of them.
Realize that the monkcher is going to have those extra adrenalines to use with both Slayer and Snipershot while 10K stars is operative
That means the Ranger is going to have those adrenalines outside of the Manyshot debuff and therefore get a 70% if ALL the Ranger's stars align to create the optimal situation. 60% is the more realistic number assuming the Lam buff goes live.
The Monckher however will expend his adrenalines during 10k Stars where he will see a 90% chance of proccing at least one extra arrow and about a 40% chance of getting at least 2 additional arrows.
Also realize that the Monkcher's greater ROF will allow him to regenerate adrenalines faster than the Ranger.

The imbalance is the ability of the Monkcher to employ adrenalized specials Far more often than the Ranger without even taking into account the monkcher gets the extra crit multiplier on 19/20's while in Earth.

Both using the Silver Longbow. The highest number I have seen my Pure Build hit for was 258 with a Slaying Arrow. The Highest I have seen my Monkcher Holleyz hit for was 2,536 Points of damage with slaying arrow. How does this even compare?

The Silver Longbow is 1d10+3.
Slayer Arrow is (weapon damage +250)
Your Ranger's Slaying arrow is Max 258
You are basically saying you have never seen your Silver Longbow do more than 8 damage when using Slaying Arrow.
So I have to ask: is your Ranger a STR dumped Halfling with no STR gear fighting skellies with no Morphic Imbue running?

[Sam1313]

Edited

I am curious regarding that, could anyone give some numbers of say a pure shiradi ranger?

I have 3 pure build aa rangers. 1 is champion at level 28. Another one is on his 4th life as a pure build aa ranger at level 17 . And the last one is a level 7 champion aa ranger. What sort of numbers are you wanting? My level 28 is in shiradi.

[Daze]

Based on the previous testing:

So assuming this testing has some validity, we can say that Monkchers with 48 have a 90% chance to get an extra arrow using 10K stars and 40% chance to get 2 extra arrows. If we then negate the 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes where both Ranger and Monkcher can employ Manyshot we are left with 100 seconds out of every 2 minutes where they are not Manyshotting.
For a monkcher therefore, during that 100 secs there are 60secs where they have the above mentioned chances to shoot extra arrows.
Compare this to a ranger who during that 100 sec period suffers a 50sec Doubleshot debuff where he is single-shotting leaving 50secs where he is doubleshotting. How much doubleshot can a Ranger realistically stack? Optimally he can stack say about 70% assuming the player gets the 20% capstone on Lam and is also an elf with 3 Primal past lives who is able to killsteal 100% of the time to maintain his Killer streak. This is of course an unrealistic best-case scenario but let's use it.

So during the 100sec non-Manyshot period, the 'perfect' Ranger averages a 35% chance to proc an extra arrow.

During the same period, the Monkcher gets an average of about 30% chance to proc an extra arrow, 25% chance to proc two extra arrows and about a 1% chance to proc 3 extra arrows.
However by proccing extra arrows beyond the first, that means the overall chance to proc an extra arrow during that 100 secs is 30+50+3 for 83%.

So there we have a significant disparity but even that disparity is not the real disparity.

Assuming both are in FotW, you need to concentrate on the 7 adrenalines you get to use OUTSIDE of the epic moment since the Epic Moment is a wash for both of them.
Realize that the monkcher is going to have those extra adrenalines to use with both Slayer and Snipershot while 10K stars is operative
That means the Ranger is going to have those adrenalines outside of the Manyshot debuff and therefore get a 70% if ALL the Ranger's stars align to create the optimal situation. 60% is the more realistic number assuming the Lam buff goes live.
The Monckher however will expend his adrenalines during 10k Stars where he will see a 90% chance of proccing at least one extra arrow and about a 40% chance of getting at least 2 additional arrows.
Also realize that the Monkcher's greater ROF will allow him to regenerate adrenalines faster than the Ranger.

The imbalance is the ability of the Monkcher to employ adrenalized specials Far more often than the Ranger without even taking into account the monkcher gets the extra crit multiplier on 19/20's while in Earth.


The Silver Longbow is 1d10+3.
Slayer Arrow is (weapon damage +250)
Your Ranger's Slaying arrow is Max 258
You are basically saying you have never seen your Silver Longbow do more than 8 damage when using Slaying Arrow.
So I have to ask: is your Ranger a STR dumped Halfling with no STR gear fighting skellies with no Morphic Imbue running?

Right but that is with a high wisdom and on a centered monkcher. Both of which are the prices you pay for that ability. I agree 10k stars is better but rangers get close to it and keep their versatility which a monkcher does not get.

Hence I do not see the huge gaping disparity between monkchers and rangers. If you want the twf feats and the ability to use dual balizardes while manyshot is on cooldown you have that option. If you want pure ranged maybe pure ranger isn't the way to go ... I mean they get melee feats for a reason.

You could even pull out two of the new smoky khopeshes with just an extra feat whereas the monkcher needs 8 levels of fighter ... completely unmaking the monkcher.

[Sam1313]

Right but that is with a high wisdom and on a centered monkcher. Both of which are the prices you pay for that ability. I agree 10k stars is better but rangers get close to it and keep their versatility which a monkcher does not get.

Hence I do not see the huge gaping disparity between monkchers and rangers. If you want the twf feats and the ability to use dual balizardes while manyshot is on cooldown you have that option. If you want pure ranged maybe pure ranger isn't the way to go ... I mean they get melee feats for a reason.

You could even pull out two of the new smoky khopeshes with just an extra feat whereas the monkcher needs 8 levels of fighter ... completely unmaking the monkcher.

If you add all them extra arrows the monk gets along with manyshot plus slaying arrow plus primal scream plus adrenaline plus the earth stance that equals out to large burst of damage compared to a pure build aa ranger who just has his manyshots plus slaying arrow. Don't even bring up the capstone because the 25% double shot is not working.
And you mentioned that the monks has to obtain a high wisdom to do what they do. Same with pure rangers we have to obtain a high strength to do bow damage with the bow str feat. Same for the pure aa ranger ideal str is 42 just like the monks ideal wisdom is 42