Player Character Balance

[BoBoDaClown]

Characters should have to make tradeoffs.

At the moment this isn't happening; some classes are able to have top notch dps and defense.

Additionally, game-play needs to make a wider variety of game styles effective; i.e. making tanks useful sometimes would be great.

[SirValentine]

The balance between classes/races/builds is quite different at different points in the game, both level wise and difficulty wise. It's even quite different in EH upper level quests compared to EE endgame.

Yes, that difference is real.

The most over-powered I ever felt compared to other characters of the same level was as an Artificer at very low levels. And yet by the teen levels, Artificer no longer felt over-powered.

But every level takes more XP than the one below it, so you spend more and more time at the higher and higher levels. And every quest level becomes more and more challenging. So, honestly, why should anyone care if build X is 10 times as powerful as build Y, in level 1 content, when class Y can still complete that content easily? If build X is 3 times as powerful as build Y in end-game content, to the point that X can contribute/complete that content, and Y simply can't, that becomes a balance problem.

TLDR: Balance isn't as important in content so easy everyone can complete anyway.

[Sethvir]

Soome ppl might remember how multiclassing was ballanced in d&d? it took more and more xp to lvl additional classes. While i see why this does not work in ddo, tzhe concept still works!

most of the power a character aquires (of real powerfull multiclass builds, not the fluffy ones), he gets from enhancements and the fact, that enhancements are friggin frontloaded. there is a simple solution. for each additional class a character selects, he needs to specify a secondary/tertiary class. for ALL enhancements of secondary/tertiary classes, the minimum level requirements (not class level, but maybe even this could be affected) will go up by 2/3 levels (INCLUDING CORE ABILITIES).

And suddenly ppl have to think about what they do, and frontloading is taken care off. the tier 3 and tier 4 stuff in enhancement trees are out of reach for tripple multiclass builds. would solve alot of problems and cut back things a bit. it still allows devs to put in powerfull and fun stuff in enhancement trees, without the threat of pushing out all balance means out of window.

it has one more apeal (at least in my mind), it would allow to bring the race -> favoured class thing to ddo from d&d. for each favoured class of the race of a character, this class is not treated as secondary/tertiary. aka no min level requirement adjustment upwards, or the increase could be reduced by 1, allowing a second class enhancement tree, without penalties.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

delete monks, take divine might away from fighters, lower mob physical damage dealt, balance achieved. or something along those lines.

[EllisDee37]

My biggest problem really is that your 'four builds' - with which I don't disagree much (Zeus?)

Zeus is a very good build. I'm guessing Cetus is ahead in dps, but yeah, Zeus is close enough to be a legitimate alternative. Especially if you don't have an eSoS but did get a raider's box. heh.

is actually mostly only relevant to EE.

Balance itself is only relevant in EEs. Most builds are on fairly equal footing in the easier difficulties. Any gimp melee can blitz through EH just about as well as Cetus and Zeus, for example. Step into EE and those gimp blitzers are toast while Cetus and Zeus just start to perform to their potential.

Think of EH and under as like comparing a ferrari versus a pinto in a school zone. They're both going 25 mph. EE is the autobahn.

[Grimborn]

No its not the same.

People that don't post on the forum don't want their opinion to be listened to.
Otherwise, they would speak up.
They're silent, so they don't care.

In your opinion of course. Not all players are into being so articulate as some people in these forums.

[Glad]

So many good posts about current situation :

For me, the reason ranged/casting feels so much superior to melee right now is because of all the terrible effects we can get when meleeing. Knockbacks, slow, damaging shields that only work at close range or only for melee attacks... Some of those simply need to be burnt in fire, some reworked to also challenge attacks from range.

Balance is overrated and boring. Variety is more interesting and what makes this game so great.

No one wants to join a party and feel useless.

The biggest issue I'll have with "fixing" shiradi is that they'll break the ONLY destiny that has innate synergy for an Arti.

Balance is a white whale - you will never ever get it.

Spending resources pursuing it (like Cpt Ahab) is a waste of your limited time.

Nerfs always Always ALWAYS suck.

Using Nerfs (which suck) to get balance (which you can never achieve) is utterly the wrong approach for this game.

And be aware DDO population is on decline and decisions you make now will affect future or our game and your jobs.

[Ancient]

We'd like a variety of roles and styles of play to be supported at a high level of play, without some builds that look like fun feeling bad to play because other characters seem so much more powerful. We've heard some level of concern over these topics and related issues. Perfect balance doesn't need to be achieved, and probably can't be achieved, but most or all playstyles should feel competitive. (We recognize that creating terrible character builds with the vast possibilities offered in DDO is always going to be possible, but we can probably all agree that's not the real issue.)

If you have to chose between feeling equal v.s. freedom and fun, please chose freedom and fun. Part of why you see an uptick during each expansion is the new possibilities. Nerfs are the exact opposite of that.

DDO is always evolving, but in some ways that can be a strength rather than a weakness. The approach you took with divine crusader had a lot of promise. Lots of people were looking forward to the results. If you cycled through classes and destinies with that type of focus driven by player feedback, you could have people excited to play some of the currently underpowered areas.

Between the shiradi force field proc, toss boulder and this thread... It has taken just a few weeks for me to go from being excited about the game enough write a guide and give back to the community... to wondering if I should give ESO another chance.

[blerkington]

I think the problem of balance is only evident in the context of epic elite, which is directly caused by the following features of epic elite (and the issue is worsening):

1. inflated monster hp (especially for orange and red named)

2. inflaged monster saves (literally untouchable)

3. inflated monster damages (renders non-ranged combat styles nonviable)

4. infated monster dc (causes players to overly focus on building up saves at the expense of all other varieties; if you dont build saves, you die instantly from cometfall/evo spells/soundburst etc.)

5. especially from update 19, the number of trashes also increase dramatically. This is very annoying combined with the above 4 points.


All of the above render almost all classes combinations powerless except for the below:

1. Shiradi casters who can hit from long distance, who are totally unaffected by monster saves, and who can do much more damage than any other casters!

My suggestion would be while making adjustment to Epic elites, it would be necessary to make all procs by shiradi only affected by 40% (or another ratio) of spell powers.


2. Furyshot moncher

I would suggest that adrenaline can only work on the first damage from manyshot/ten thousand star (if techically possible)

If the above is not possible, then maybe make adrenline not regenerating from ranged attacks.

At the very least, maybe change ten thousand star to not work on bows.

Hi,

There's some stuff I don't agree with here.

Balance is an issue in lower difficulties and other parts of the game. While I try to spend as much time in EE groups as I can, a very significant proportion are just running EH. This is evident on my server from the lfms I see every day.

The loss of perspective here is that not everyone plays EE all the time, and the whole game shouldn't be balanced around it.

If you are serious about balance, you need to look at the game from the lower heroic levels and easier difficulty levels all the way up to endgame EE content. A counter-example to your claim that balance isn't an issue at lower difficulty levels is the completely dominance a good instakill caster enjoys in everything but the most difficult content.

How the game is balanced at various points is important to novice players and causals, and no doubt affects their enjoyment of the game and how well they can be retained. Unless the people who only complete EE endgame content are largely paying for the game to run, these other things do actually need to be taken into account.

Thanks.

[blerkington]

Yes, that difference is real.

The most over-powered I ever felt compared to other characters of the same level was as an Artificer at very low levels. And yet by the teen levels, Artificer no longer felt over-powered.

But every level takes more XP than the one below it, so you spend more and more time at the higher and higher levels. And every quest level becomes more and more challenging. So, honestly, why should anyone care if build X is 10 times as powerful as build Y, in level 1 content, when class Y can still complete that content easily? If build X is 3 times as powerful as build Y in end-game content, to the point that X can contribute/complete that content, and Y simply can't, that becomes a balance problem.

TLDR: Balance isn't as important in content so easy everyone can complete anyway.

Hi,

I see your point, but I think you are still suffering from a fairly exclusive, high difficulty endgame point of view.

There are people who play lots of alts and never make it to cap. There are people who don't have the time to build up characters to perform in EE endgame. I still pug enough to meet a steady supply of people who struggle with EH content, especially if something goes a bit wrong, or they get isolated from their group.

There are also some extremely experienced players posting in this very thread who are fully capable of playing EE, but have rejected it because they find it silly and unenjoyable. And in many ways EE is quite silly. It's not so much about player skill as finding something that works (like an overpowered build, or a single ability, or even just safe perching spots, and milking that for all it is worth).

I suspect that the number of people whose main diet is EE endgame content is a significant (especially by dollars spent) but fairly small proportion of the population. But people coming up through the game, as well as veterans, are important customers too and also need to be catered for.

So I'm going to stick to my line that balance in the wider game is important too. Perhaps not so much to you or to me, depending on how rarified the air we breathe is, but there are many others for whom it is, especially new customers and cashed-up but time-poor casuals.

Thanks.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I rather see time devoted to delivering a complete / finished / polished GUILD SYSTEM and updating / finishing / revamping CANNITH CRAFTING.

[vengfarga]

Shiradi is OP ... but only for casters. For the ranged toons it was designed for (Rangers, Artis, Mechs, Bow Kensai) it's very under-powered.
FotW is OP ... for Monkchers. For the melees it was designed for (Barbs, Fighters, Pallys, other idiots with big weapons) it's a poor 2nd to LD.

Any nerfs to these destinies to 'rein in' the power of already highly effective classes like Wiz, Sorc & Monk, is going to hit the less powerful builds using them as intended twice as hard, making them even less desirable and less balanced.

[Singular]

With the changes to Boulder Toss, you guys are pretending to make a label for an ability - Boulder Toss - more "realistic" by taking away the benefits of spell power, despite the fact that:

1. environment based boulders have nothing to do with the ability - you can toss it in the nothing phylactery prisons of the new raid, wher there aren't even floors

2. anyone, even those with 6 strength can toss a boulder for the same amount of damage, making it the least realistic stone throwing possible

3. and, moreover, you're ripping apart balance by destroying an integral damage proc from artificers. After the change, artificers will not be able to keep up with good EE damage output. So you're reducing variety of end game builds and increasing the gap between the over powered "cheat" builds and the rest.

It's not a welcome change.

[zwiebelring]

Fury ED should be restricted to melee.

But since there is no unite ED creation, some EDs work with more than their archtype player character in mind. I am to that point where I want all the classes be restricted according to their destiny spheres. Specialists may choose there sphere and stick tp it. That eliminated Karma farm brain vaporization as well as overpowered twist of fates.

EDs are no EDs just very simplified new classes. You should not be able to choose inbetween them. 1 per life at maximum*. Because, you know, ->destiny<-. Yes, I know, all super fast grinders,k powergamers, munchkins and elitists will curse me to death but that is, what created real balance. Everything else is DDO charts top ten wish list.

So cool, if people actually had to make a real decision being either Legendary Dreadnought or Fury of The Wild or Flower Boy. And with that in mind, EDs could be real powerful so your toon feels unique again. Nerf cherry picking.

*For clarification, I mean being in one, not leveling one.

[parowan]

I took this screenshot months ago. It was old news then. Nothing has changed since. The thing that sticks out at me is that you can have such a homogeneous party without making any requirements. Simply post an LFM for EEs, with no more stipulation than main ED, and there's a decent chance you'll get a group of what are essentially identical builds. Or maybe a group with all characters being one of two possible builds. A sure sign that the balance ship has sailed.





While I agree with those who say that you can go too far in pursuit of balance, and that PnP isn't always balanced, this is the crux:

DDO's greatest differentiating strength is the depth and robustness of character creation and development. The current situation effectively renders that moot, leaving DDO without a competitive advantage.

Solutions? I'll admit I haven't read the whole thread, but if tampering with people's builds is so problematic, and if you don't want to revisit the idea of putting 10k stars and manyshot on shared timer, or counting magic missile as one shiradi proc instead of many, or making multiclassing less frontloaded, etc., then how about this idea: give high level mobs viable ranged attacks. That sorc or monkcher is going to be a bit more hesitant if an EE ogre himself has manyshot and can hit at range for as much dmg as he hits in melee.

The problem may not be that ranged characters are more powerful than other characters. The problem may be that ranged characters are too safe from mobs. Or the problem may be both things. But I simply don't feel like I'm playing DnD if my character is just the same as everyone else's.

[Cardtrick]

Shiradi is OP ... but only for casters. For the ranged toons it was designed for (Rangers, Artis, Mechs, Bow Kensai) it's very under-powered.
FotW is OP ... for Monkchers. For the melees it was designed for (Barbs, Fighters, Pallys, other idiots with big weapons) it's a poor 2nd to LD.

Any nerfs to these destinies to 'rein in' the power of already highly effective classes like Wiz, Sorc & Monk, is going to hit the less powerful builds using them as intended twice as hard, making them even less desirable and less balanced.

Honestly, I don't even think Shiradi qualifies as overpowered anymore, even for casters. It's already been sufficiently nerfed. It's actually a pretty good example of something that's fun to play, participates well in groups without making everyone else feel useless, does well in high end content when built properly and played well, and feels genuinely different than the other options out there.

Now, some of the splash options that give a Shiradi caster insane saves (2 pali for divine grace) or evasion/defenses/saves (2 monk in ocean stance with free defensive feats) without really having to sacrifice anything of importance -- those are overpowered. Arguably the 2 FvS splash for Just Rewards is a bit overpowered as well, but I feel like the opportunity cost there is about right, especially since it doesn't let someone do anything they couldn't otherwise -- it just lets them do it without using as many pots/shrines.

The benefit to saves from Divine Grace should be capped by one's paladin level. Monk splashes are harder to balance, but I wouldn't be opposed to having evasion moved back to level 9, like it is for ranger.

[zwiebelring]

The problem may not be that ranged characters are more powerful than other characters. The problem may be that ranged characters are too safe from mobs. Or the problem may be both things. But I simply don't feel like I'm playing DnD if my character is just the same as everyone else's.

Sorry, no. Too safe from death is exactly, why you go ranged. But when a dedicated, geared up melee cannot go into melee everytime he faces ''trash'' mobs then these mobs are on steroids and imbalanced. I don't care if ranged caracters do fancy pewpew in safe distance. That is their contribution and strength. That is okay. As long as my melee toons can show their strength.

[Cardtrick]

3. and, moreover, you're ripping apart balance by destroying an integral damage proc from artificers. After the change, artificers will not be able to keep up with good EE damage output. So you're reducing variety of end game builds and increasing the gap between the over powered "cheat" builds and the rest.

Artificers need a significant boost in the endgame. They are awesome up until about level 17 or 18. Probably overpowered. But then their damage output stops scaling, and they're downright weak by the endgame.

However, there's really no reason that that boost should be boulder toss. It really was a bit weird. I don't care about the flavor/lore aspect at all, I just mean it was weird/broken that artis were forced to use a physical damage ability from a melee destiny because they lacked any decent scaling force damage option of their own.

(I still think boulder toss's damage should scale with strength and have a Knockdown chance with a DC based on strength -- it should be a situational ranged damage option for melee builds that doesn't require going monkcher/manyshot.)

[gk_zone]

I'd like to add another broad area to that list: pure-class versus multi-class.

I feel that not only should every single class be viable and able to contribute, but that every single class when pure-classed should be viable and able to contribute.

For me, that should be the basic starting point for balancing classes, and multi-class measured against that yard-stick.

I don't mind if someone figures out clever, synergistic combinations that are a bit more powerful overall, but there should be trade-offs. Multi-classing should never be a no-brainer, and pure-class should never be an outright bad choice.

Traditionally in D&D, multi-classes, being less specialized, had less raw power, balanced with more versatility. It seems in some cases in DDO, they get more versatility AND more power, making pure-classes strictly inferior.

The enhancement pass contributed a lot to this. I think a hard look at capstones is in order.

And, though I know some people will hate it, perhaps revisiting the class levels needed for each tier of enhancement. Personally, I think 1/3/6/9/12 would be more appropriate than 1/2/3/4/5.

There is a lot of wisdom in this post.

[zwiebelring]

Multiclassing was the oldschool way to actually choose a PrC for one aspect to specialize but leave all other oarts for good as a trade-off.

If a Rog splashed 2 Ftr levels, for example, then in order to take a more martial PrC and in a faster way compared to staying pure. Rog is a very attractice class in pnp to stay pure, even in DDO I think it is. So multiclassing has to grant a big advantage for that reason and the trade-off. The common 10 levels of PrC granted such a power, usually.

But in DDO it seems that with multiclassing you get only stronger generalists in everything without big trade-offs. That is not multiclassing's fault, it might rather be a flaw in design of some classes.