Boulder Toss Change is upsetting

[Singular]

There is no argument to be made.

it was not correct because, even though its been treated as a spell since its inception in the game it is a physical attack.

the change to SLA working in antimagic fields is why players called for a change to boulder toss to make it work against beholders because, its not a spell. with that change they made it work less like a spell removing spell power.

If they are changing it so it's a physical attack, they should make the damage increase with increasing strength of the player. And give arties an ED.

[Oxarhamar]

If they are changing it so it's a physical attack, they should make the damage increase with increasing strength of the player. And give arties an ED.

I agree that Artificer should have their own ED

somehow I feel it will fall short being too divided between Ranged and Caster focused to be that great.

Still I would welcome an ED for Artificer

My first thoughts on an Artificer specific ED are an additional bolt to be fired by any Crossbow so light, heavy, and great would fire 2 per shot before doubleshot, and repeaters would fire 4 before doubleshot. I believe this would not be game breaking since the rate of fire is still slowed by load reload animations.

[General_Gronker]

You might have had a valid point or two except for two things:
This

I've only been outkilled twice by another artie,

because it's dumb. I can outkill just about anyone short of a straight caster on some characters simply because I'm good at kill stealing and it only marks the killing blow. So outkilling isn't a measure of your skill or DPS, and it's silly to try and use that to prop up your claims.

The other thing that works against your point is this:

I have never once seen an artificer use boulder toss. Never. So really, what I'm reading is that you aren't actually very good at playing an artificer and need a crutch to help.

[EllisDee37]

I can outkill just about anyone short of a straight caster on some characters simply because I'm good at kill stealing and it only marks the killing blow. So outkilling isn't a measure of your skill or DPS, and it's silly to try and use that to prop up your claims.

I see this a lot on the forums, and it's flawed logic. Kill count is an okay way to measure dps if you aren't intentionally kill stealing. Since you're in control of whether or not you intentionally kill steal, you're in control of whether or not kill count will be an okay measure of your dps relative to the rest of your party.

[CThruTheEgo]

@General_Gronker: You might have had a valid point or two except for two things:

This:

I can outkill just about anyone short of a straight caster on some characters simply because I'm good at kill stealing and it only marks the killing blow. So outkilling isn't a measure of your skill or DPS, and it's silly to try and use that to prop up your claims.

I'll agree that kill count is not a perfect measure of dps, but that does not mean it has no value in measuring the effectiveness of a build. It's true that playstyle can have a lot to do with it (kill stealing is not a part of this playstyle and will skew the validity of kill count, as pointed out by EllisDee above). It is also true that other players have a similar playstyle, not all of course, but certainly some (I would even say many). So over a very large sample (i.e. across many, many groups with a variety of players), it is likely that you will encounter other players with the same playstyle and whatever "advantage" playstyle gives you will be countered. And if over that very large sample you consistently come out ahead of others, then you have some indication of the effectiveness of your build relative to other builds.

You can also see the value of kill count when playing a weaker dps build. As you pointed out yourself, you can outkill "on some characters." Why not all? If it was only a matter of playstyle and kill stealing, then the build wouldn't matter. Try consistently topping the kill count on a heavy paladin or bard build. When I have played either of those classes (using a similar melee playstyle that I do with more heavy dps builds), I do not top the kill count because they are simply weaker dps.

Kill count does have it's limitations, and those need to be recognized, but it is not a completely useless measurement.

And this:

I have never once seen an artificer use boulder toss. Never. So really, what I'm reading is that you aren't actually very good at playing an artificer and need a crutch to help.

Boulder toss is (soon to be was) a very powerful ability for an arti. I use it and try to keep it on cooldown constantly because it is that good. I know many other artis who also use it. Just because you haven't noticed any artis using it doesn't mean they don't or that it is a crutch.

[Ancient]

I have never once seen an artificer use boulder toss. Never. So really, what I'm reading is that you aren't actually very good at playing an artificer and need a crutch to help.

I find it hilarious how there is never any middle ground. Boulder toss is awful because you've never seen it and what you have seen is the gold standard of good... then when the numbers seep in... Boulder toss should be nerfed because it wasn't meant to be that good!

There are two parts to effective boulder toss usage:

1. You had to learn to jump throw. Actually throw, then jump. The boulder was very sensitive to being stopped by absolutely anything it touched... you know, just like real boulders being tossed around.
2. You had to go all out force spec to get the most out of it. My NovaShiradi's biggest boulder crit was 12,800 (and it was a yellow crit!). I would guess my average was between 3-4k (maybe higher).

If they had just changed the description to something like: You direct your focused rage at an opponent in the form of a boulder thrown through the air then barbs could pretend they threw it, casters could pretend they conjured it and it could work for everyone. But the crabs in a bucket mentality won't stand for anyone getting out of the bucket... otherwise we can't complain about there being only "4" end game builds.

p.s. I saw a pure rogue in shadowdancer get 95 kills in EE servants of the overlord yesterday. I think shadowdancer is awful, I even posted that yesterday... obviously that assassin knows better.

[thomascoolone64]

I'm among the highest dps arties on my server. I've only been outkilled twice by another artie, I solo EEs without issue, I constantly steal aggro from the best hate tanks. Yes, BT is a cornerstone of my build. It's synergistic with force specked arties. We have Ruin, but that's extremely expensive. Otherwise, nothing else offers what BT does for FotW arties.

I've never run across an artie who could produce good damage who didn't run in Fury, and hence use BT. Any artie running in any other ED is second rate dps - they might be ok CC in Shiradi, and have good survivability in Shadowdancer, but they're not high dps.

Not having BT is going to bring arties down from being able to compete with top melee and further the distance between us an top monkchers. My current build can produce about 22k burst damage in 4 seconds; monkchers do about 40k. Not having BT is going to knock about 6-9k from that; having it at 1k is just going to worsen my attack b/c it'll interrupt my sequence to scratch some mob.

Every destiny is supposed to have something for every class. Boulder Toss was the best part of Fury for casters, next being primal scream.

Your argument that BT shouldn't be boosted by spell power because that's just not real fails for two reasons. First, it's silly. This is a game about fantasy - you can't say "well, in real life, when you toss a boulder, you're picking it up" because this isn't real life. Second, BT can be done regardless of strength, it doesn't change the environment, it works in every environment (you never get a message saying "there are no stones around" like you should in certain environments of certain quests, where there are no walls, no stones) - and, after the change, it's still going to be able to be performed by any character of any strength, but now the damage will suck.

If you were bring your position to its end point, you should be arguing that str should be made to affect BT damage. And I would be ok with that, if they came out with a comprehensive explanation of what BT is - and, more importantly, b/c we've had it in our builds for so long and it is part of the foundation that keeps our dps comparable to top melee and arcane, replace it with something comparable.

As it stands, all they are doing is weakening artificers by making BT useless for everyone. Other arcanes will simply use their spells more and few melee - no top dps melee - would bother to use the future, mediocre Boulder Toss.

No, Do not change boulder Toss becuase that Spell Power to BT, has been used to instantly kill a person in PvP alot and it hurts the Paladins, ... Its not fair! DPS Or No Rock!
Boulder Toss should be Banned in PvP

[Fedora1]

My artie has 12 str. For me, since it was an sla, it was part of the magic of an ED, not a personal literally picking up a boulder and throwing it. I mean, if that's the case, then it should be utterly tied to str..

Not only that, but you would need to be in an area where boulders could be found just lying around. Also, you need to unequip your current weapon(s) to equip said boulder.

It always looked like a magical thing to me, not literal.

[Fedora1]

If they are changing it so it's a physical attack, they should make the damage increase with increasing strength of the player. And give arties an ED.

And make a minimum STR requirement to use it.

[Fedora1]

You might have had a valid point or two except for two things:
This
because it's dumb. I can outkill just about anyone short of a straight caster on some characters simply because I'm good at kill stealing and it only marks the killing blow. So outkilling isn't a measure of your skill or DPS, and it's silly to try and use that to prop up your claims.

Her artie dps is posted, she didn't just say she has high kill counts.

Your anecdotal evidence that YOU have never seen another artie use BT is a much worse argument. I am surprised you tried calling her on the kill count thing and then actually said something as weak as that to try and make your point.

[arkonas]

I'm among the highest dps arties on my server. I've only been outkilled twice by another artie, I solo EEs without issue, I constantly steal aggro from the best hate tanks. Yes, BT is a cornerstone of my build. It's synergistic with force specked arties. We have Ruin, but that's extremely expensive. Otherwise, nothing else offers what BT does for FotW arties.

I've never run across an artie who could produce good damage who didn't run in Fury, and hence use BT. Any artie running in any other ED is second rate dps - they might be ok CC in Shiradi, and have good survivability in Shadowdancer, but they're not high dps.

Not having BT is going to bring arties down from being able to compete with top melee and further the distance between us an top monkchers. My current build can produce about 22k burst damage in 4 seconds; monkchers do about 40k. Not having BT is going to knock about 6-9k from that; having it at 1k is just going to worsen my attack b/c it'll interrupt my sequence to scratch some mob.

Every destiny is supposed to have something for every class. Boulder Toss was the best part of Fury for casters, next being primal scream.

Your argument that BT shouldn't be boosted by spell power because that's just not real fails for two reasons. First, it's silly. This is a game about fantasy - you can't say "well, in real life, when you toss a boulder, you're picking it up" because this isn't real life. Second, BT can be done regardless of strength, it doesn't change the environment, it works in every environment (you never get a message saying "there are no stones around" like you should in certain environments of certain quests, where there are no walls, no stones) - and, after the change, it's still going to be able to be performed by any character of any strength, but now the damage will suck.

If you were bring your position to its end point, you should be arguing that str should be made to affect BT damage. And I would be ok with that, if they came out with a comprehensive explanation of what BT is - and, more importantly, b/c we've had it in our builds for so long and it is part of the foundation that keeps our dps comparable to top melee and arcane, replace it with something comparable.

As it stands, all they are doing is weakening artificers by making BT useless for everyone. Other arcanes will simply use their spells more and few melee - no top dps melee - would bother to use the future, mediocre Boulder Toss.

i love how you're complaining about something that wasn't wai and shouldn't be effected by spellpower. 2nd your comment that there aren't rocks around. lol. you do realize you could just dig into the ground if you had the strength right? look at giants for example they don't go looking for a rock to toss. also its sad that your dps is based on one abilitiy. so that tells me your dps will be bad without this according to your own words. kinda sad right?

[Ancient]

i love how you're complaining about something that wasn't wai and shouldn't be effected by spellpower.

That is your interpretation, I always thought of it as channeling your rage.

2nd your comment that there aren't rocks around. lol. you do realize you could just dig into the ground if you had the strength right? look at giants for example they don't go looking for a rock to toss.

Yeah, because in the desert a giant can grab a boulder out of sand... and in the swamp, there is the same dry/round boulder in the middle of the bog, and in a castle they can grab/chunk a huge boulder and not leave a single scratch on the floor. You have a very strong point here... not.

also its sad that your dps is based on one abilitiy. so that tells me your dps will be bad without this according to your own words. kinda sad right?

Take away manyshot and see how archers react. It may not be as big a deal but boulder toss is 1-2 seconds to throw and 20 sec to refresh. That translates to what they are doing 5-10% of the time. Yeah, that might be kinda big.

[Qhualor]

Yeah, because in the desert a giant can grab a boulder out of sand... and in the swamp, there is the same dry/round boulder in the middle of the bog, and in a castle they can grab/chunk a huge boulder and not leave a single scratch on the floor. You have a very strong point here... not.

I see many peoples complaints about this change using "a boulder suddenly appears in your hands, so therefore it must be magical". animation and the lack of realism that boulders aren't on the ground to pick up is what players are actually arguing about and calling it magical so spell power should be part of BT. we see the same exact thing in any quest or explorer area with giants and we all should know that all giants cant suddenly cast a boulder in their hands to throw.

[CThruTheEgo]

Arguing about the reality of a fantasy game is a lesson in absurdity.

[Singular]

i love how you're complaining about something that wasn't wai and shouldn't be effected by spellpower. 2nd your comment that there aren't rocks around. lol. you do realize you could just dig into the ground if you had the strength right? look at giants for example they don't go looking for a rock to toss. also its sad that your dps is based on one abilitiy. so that tells me your dps will be bad without this according to your own words. kinda sad right?

In the new raid, Deathwyrm, we go into a force room, with no floors, walls or ceiling, to destroy a phylactery, and you can use Boulder Toss. There is nothing in that room but a force cube around you. The boulder appears from nowwhere. If the boulder is a real physical thing, then either 1) we've been carrying it the whole time or 2) we conjured it via magic. Since it's not in our backpacks at the time of the toss, we must have conjured it.

Anyways, as Cthru said above, arguing the 'reality' of fantasy games is absurd. Clearly the devs want BT to be a nonmagical, a low dps ED button damage thing. Ok, fine. My point is that it decreases artificers's damage output, nerfing arties by quite a bit.

Making BT useless for everyone is not balance, it's just stupid. Now no one is going to use Boulder Toss except in exceptional circumstances, like unprepared barbarians in FOT with nothing else to damage the phylactery with. I guess if the goal was to eliminate the need for barbs to carry throwing weapons, then good job.

And the nerf itself hits arties the hardest - a class that already cannot produce top dps at end game. So...this change just makes arties EH classes. If that's what the Devs want, then, well, that's what the player base is getting.

[arkonas]

That is your interpretation, I always thought of it as channeling your rage.


Yeah, because in the desert a giant can grab a boulder out of sand... and in the swamp, there is the same dry/round boulder in the middle of the bog, and in a castle they can grab/chunk a huge boulder and not leave a single scratch on the floor. You have a very strong point here... not.


Take away manyshot and see how archers react. It may not be as big a deal but boulder toss is 1-2 seconds to throw and 20 sec to refresh. That translates to what they are doing 5-10% of the time. Yeah, that might be kinda big.

you're right it might of been the way i read it as it said tossing a boulder. i see nothing magical about that. so yeah.

yeah giants in deserts gotcha. don't really see that happening very often right? swamps alright sure they might be there so instead of a rock they might pick up a tree instead. yeah using the surroundings why would they ever do that right?

take away manyshot from a ranger. sure they would be upset because its been there for a longtime and there was nothing mystical about it. a rock using spellpower not the same thing. oh a giant grabbing a rock from a castle yeah of course there would be damage there but we aren't playing that type of game now are we where damage is shown to the areas. nice try champ try again. if our surroundings were able to be demolished or effected by what we did we would have that type of engine. my point is what giants currently do in the game right now. they randomly pick up a rock from where ever and toss it at you. so your statement is null and void.

[arkonas]

In the new raid, Deathwyrm, we go into a force room, with no floors, walls or ceiling, to destroy a phylactery, and you can use Boulder Toss. There is nothing in that room but a force cube around you. The boulder appears from nowwhere. If the boulder is a real physical thing, then either 1) we've been carrying it the whole time or 2) we conjured it via magic. Since it's not in our backpacks at the time of the toss, we must have conjured it.

Anyways, as Cthru said above, arguing the 'reality' of fantasy games is absurd. Clearly the devs want BT to be a nonmagical, a low dps ED button damage thing. Ok, fine. My point is that it decreases artificers's damage output, nerfing arties by quite a bit.

Making BT useless for everyone is not balance, it's just stupid. Now no one is going to use Boulder Toss except in exceptional circumstances, like unprepared barbarians in FOT with nothing else to damage the phylactery with. I guess if the goal was to eliminate the need for barbs to carry throwing weapons, then good job.

And the nerf itself hits arties the hardest - a class that already cannot produce top dps at end game. So...this change just makes arties EH classes. If that's what the Devs want, then, well, that's what the player base is getting.

actually barbarians and whoever uses it in melee will still use it. i do before i engage something. i don't see many range attacks for a melee without switching to a ranged weapon. im not saying artificers couldn't just get their own destiny or anything like that but you're really making a big stink over a rock. whether it was suppose to be magical or not is up to them. when i read the description i never saw anything mentioning spellpower. had there been and they were removing it then i wouldn't argue with you.

exactly reality in a fantasy game who would ever think that. look at people in rift. they had falling damage for a long time until people started whining about it. now it was removed. i think it takes away from the game. i can literally jump around wherever i want and not care where i land. i think that takes away from game play. honestly if i was the devs in that game i would of told them to watch where they step. in this game we have falling damage as well. im waiting for the day someone will whine oh we shouldnt take damage because its fantasy blah blah

[Fedora1]

. so your statement is null and void.

Because you said so? lol

Your arguments are null and void. So there.

[Khatzhas]

I have never once seen an artificer use boulder toss. Never. So really, what I'm reading is that you aren't actually very good at playing an artificer and need a crutch to help.

Boulder toss is a very powerful ability for many artificers. Their high-end damaging spells (other than deconstruct vs constructs) are all boosted by force spellpower, as are many of the top-end runearms. Thus, most artificers will concentrate on force-based spellpower.

This made Boulder Toss hit very hard indeed. Generally well worth its short animation period.

However, remember that Artificers start in the Arcane Epic Destiny section, and its a long slog all the way to Fury of the Wild from there. This might explain why you haven't seen Artificers using it. That or you simply didn't notice when one did. It is quite a rapid animation, and not as spectacular as most spells or Runearm effects.

Personally I'm in favour of the change. It does make more sense. I want artificers to be adjusted to that they can make a reasonable contribution without relying on odd gimmicks.
I'm hoping that the devs will look at performance after this change and make further adjustments to performance that might be necessary due to it.

[digitaljc]

It's a sense-makeum!

Throwing rocks is not magic. Spellpower never should have been involved, and that it was is frankly stupid. It's not 'conjure boulder'.

Then again, getting people out of the Primal sphere at all (except into the martial sphere) is like pulling teeth...on a shark, bare handed.

At least Arties still have Arcane Tempest, from Magister. That even makes sense to use your Force spellpower, and is a persistant AoE. More fun that way.

Shortform - good, fix the utter nonsense things. Thumbs up for Turbine!

P.S. - Dear Turbine, while you're fixing nonsense things, please undo nonsense nerfs, such as to FoM, and Warforged/PM immunities. I'm still trying to figure out how a wraith contracts Slimy Doom, or how a Warforged gets affected by spider venom, unless you've neglected to tell us that these are all trained attack spiders who normally only eat trees.

Are you certain about the magic part? I mean, it's not like dungeons have boulders sitting around everywhere to throw. :P