Divine Sphere Epic Destiny Changes

[Shincula]

Hardened should be a % AC bonus instead of a flat AC bonus.

I'm inclined to agree with this. 5/10/15% AC would be much more useful from a scaling perspective, and would bring it into line with the change to HP in the same ED. It's not particularly overpowered or unprecedented; a level 1 dip of Wizard can acquire a 10% boost AC.

[EvilII]

I must say, I will be very disappointed if Divine Wrath is nerfed (ie increased cooldown). It is the foundation that makes Exalted Angel remotely worth playing for divines, and keeps me sometimes logging in on my remaining "healer". It's not even hard to use for clerics as is, the Avenging Light SLA can fuel it quite readily. I really doubt 3 points (?) of extra dc:s can make any difference in EE storm horns or gianthold. "Healers" are already near extinct, they don't need a nerf to their strongest remaining ability.

I would prefer to bring this up after I've tried the changes of course, but news working the way they do, I'm sure the discussion will have died by then, with everyone buried in their respective trenches.

EDIT: In fact, given the current state of EE enemies, I can't see any problem with removing the ardor and keeping the cooldown the same as it is now. I've been using it at every cooldown with extreme prejudice, and I don't excatly lead the killcounts...

[sephiroth1084]

I'm inclined to agree with this. 5/10/15% AC would be much more useful from a scaling perspective, and would bring it into line with the change to HP in the same ED. It's not particularly overpowered or unprecedented; a level 1 dip of Wizard can acquire a 10% boost AC.

If you have 100 AC, 10% is...+10 AC. It's a bit more if you're up around 150 already, but not enough to be really meaningfully different from the new progression. Unless they want to use this ability in the same way that weapon proficiency and Precision work for attacks, adding straight-up 20% or 5%, respectively, to attacks after other calculations.

Actually, that would be a pretty good idea!

Change Hardened to add up to a 15% miss chance due to AC that comes after the base calculation. So, if an attack against your AC would have a 25% chance to succeed, add this 15% after that, rather than adding another +X bonus to your AC that diminishes with the parabolic curve of AC progression we have.

[mikarddo]

I don't really agree that there's a problem, but I don't object to this suggested change.

Sound Burst is a more practical choice, being both AoE, and belonging to a school that divines often spec in.

STRONGLY disagree on your proposed costs. You realize as a normal spell, NOT an SLA, it's only 15 SP? Which other SLAs cost more than the base spell? DOUBLE the base spell? Most cost less, in some cases far less.

Who would want to twist it? Sorcs, who already have other Evoc spells (and SLAs!) that do similar? Druids, who already have PERSISTENT Evoc-based CC (which, rightfully, belongs on the Clr/FvS spell list, too)? I don't think twisting it is an big issue.

The sp cost of Soundburst is considering that it will be heightened to be usefull. You are probably right though that I priced it too high. I will edit my post above to lower cost.

I am not sure twisting (by divines in other spheres or by others) is an issue. I am merely reminding to consider that when substituting to a stronger sla.

[Angelic-council]

Ascendance: +1 max caster level, + 1 spell pen, + 1 spell DC, light damaging spell gain extra light damage (7% chance).

[devashta]

Why has Transcendal Magic been moved to Tier 5? It has to be T2 just like in Magister. Unless you are allowing Tier 5 abilities to be twisted in near future, I do not like this change.

[bennyson]

Why has Transcendal Magic been moved to Tier 5? It has to be T2 just like in Magister. Unless you are allowing Tier 5 abilities to be twisted in near future, I do not like this change.

Just think about it

+2 (or 3) to every single school of magic that stacks with Magister and Draconic DC boosts.

Now if Wizards and Sorcerers (or any other spellcasting class that isn't a Divine) were able to twist this, that will make Arcanes even more powerful and put Divines at another disadvantage.

Having Transcendental Magic as a tier 5 was a good idea, helps Divines reach similar DCs to the Arcanes in general without making Arcanes more powerful in the processes.

[Krelar]

If you have 100 AC, 10% is...+10 AC. It's a bit more if you're up around 150 already, but not enough to be really meaningfully different from the new progression. Unless they want to use this ability in the same way that weapon proficiency and Precision work for attacks, adding straight-up 20% or 5%, respectively, to attacks after other calculations.

Actually, that would be a pretty good idea!

Change Hardened to add up to a 15% miss chance due to AC that comes after the base calculation. So, if an attack against your AC would have a 25% chance to succeed, add this 15% after that, rather than adding another +X bonus to your AC that diminishes with the parabolic curve of AC progression we have.

I like this idea.

[Infiltraitor]

Any word on whether or not Celestial Champion will work on handwraps and/or wild shape?

It was bugged on Lammania to not work on any weapon at all.

[TheDr0wRanger]

There is more to survival than just healing, and more to arcanes than just sorcs. Wizards hav pale masters and sorcs have high cha to have heal scrolls and/or can twist cocoon.

On a deeper level, survival has become more about damage avoidance and there is an area that arcanes shine at. Displacement alone is better melee avoidance than anything the divines get.

In the past, heals alone could keep you up. That simply is no longer true. Part of why I rein ex out of my nova soul build was that I could not live long enough to cast divine wrath in a crowd of EE mobs. Healing simply is not enough by itself.

To gimp a destiny because divines have healing will be repeating the mistakes that lead to the sorry state divines are currently in. The dps of a divine dps build should be close to what draconic offers. Sorcs have options to survive, give divines options to do direct dmg dps (and dc cast and good melee dmg)

We will have to disagree on this one. I would love to see a destiny good enoug some sorcs choose it. We aren't even close.

Perhaps you are right, I admit I've not capped a divine. I just note that armored fvs and cleric(ignoring Paladins as they are insanely durable by any standard) far outlast non-wf arcanes, even Pale Masters. Perhaps thats a matter of who I run with. I'd actually like to see a move to bring the two together, my sorc has long wanted a fire-based heal shot for himself, even just a little one. And I would like to see DPS divine, even close to draconic, I just meant it should not MATCH it considering the extent to which a draconic-targeted sorc has to pigeon-hole themselves. Even then, if they opened draconic-sorc options up to make sorcs more versatile AS CASTERS(eldritch has no bearing on this), I'd be down for throwing the doors wide open. Hell if they made exalted deal in fire as opposed to light, I'd be in it faster than words convey, unfortunately there's no light-savant, so the tree can't work with me.

[serthcore]

For Exalted Angel. Please consider dropping the AP cost of divine wrath to 1 point and sunbolt 1 point aswell so we can have both plus the epic destiny, or move sunbolt to tier 4. Actually the epic moment isnt that impressive, but losing it plus renewal is going to hurt. The idea is to improve EA, not making it even worse!

[EllisDee37]

Why has Transcendal Magic been moved to Tier 5? It has to be T2 just like in Magister. Unless you are allowing Tier 5 abilities to be twisted in near future, I do not like this change.

Because it applies to all schools instead of just one school, making it significantly more powerful than the tier 2 magister and draconic DC bonuses.

[Starla70]

I am not sure on all of this, reading through this more and more and talking to others on live, it is going to have to be tried to see. I have to say one reason clerics are near excint is the attitude many players have towards them. I have heard, "you need a higher kill count", "why did you let me die? (usually from 1 or 2 rooms ahead of the group and through a wall)", "a hireling is so much more effective then a cleric", etc. Who wants to deal with that?

I have played D&D since 1979. I have seen many changes, some I liked, others not so much. Now in pen and paper, I could choose to play with different editions, and leave some out. Here in DDO, it just isn't so. It is impossible to please everyone, all of the time. However it just seems that anyone who likes ot play a cleric that is more for turn undead, and healing of the party is just totally ignored, in favor of those who wish to be able to solo everything. I do not want to keep up with joe smash it all fighter, or punch everything in sight as a cleric monk. These changes from what I see will penalize me for playing one type of class that I enjoy. Which is my so many seem to just not play them anymore. You say play favored soul? Don't really like it. They have more spell points, less spells, and no turn undead, rather gimped to me. When a favored soul joins your party, you have to ask "Do you heal?" Many just do not.

Dungeons and Dragons used to be about learning to work as a team and beat the odds. Now it is about who can kill what fastest. That is not really how I want to play. I know of many who have stopped playing because of this fact. I will stay, however, I am hoping for something that will give a cleric back some of it's original play goals.

And yes, I know many of you will not like this statement. I don't really care. I pay to play, I will play my way. A cleric was made to be a support role, strong in their own way, weak in others. Many of these changes the past year or so are what has killed off people wanting to play as a party. They simply do not need to. They can do it all alone, and need no one for anything. To me that kills the whole purpose of how D&D was started.

[danlan]

Please move celestial bombardment to EA tier 5. Really I don't think this spell belongs with a melee tree.

[SirValentine]

These changes from what I see will penalize me for playing one type of class that I enjoy. Which is my so many seem to just not play them anymore.

Wait, these changes PENALIZE playing Clerics? How so? Personally, as a Cleric player, I'm looking forward to them. I think some tweaks are needed from what's in the OP, but it's the right direction.

I will stay, however, I am hoping for something that will give a cleric back some of it's original play goals.

Oh, you mean being an undead killer, the original reason the Cleric class was created way back in the 70s? Yes, some kind of Epic Destiny stuff that builds off of Turn Undead to actually make it useful in Epic would have been a nice addition.

With 3 Cleric past lives, all the Turn-boosting gear, high Charisma, and some (but not quite maximum) Turn-boosting enhancements, I still can't Turn a single Undead in the lowest level (level 20) Epic Elite quests. What chance does a first-lifer have? None! Broken!

[redoubt]

When I do run my cleric (usually just for raids) I tend to keep him in Sentinel. My cleric is actually turn spec'd (heavily that way) which is part of why he doesn't see a ton of action any more these days, but it does work nicely for healing with aura and burst.

The PRR, HP, saves and blocking boosts are nice to have for this play style. Enough so that I give up the extra spell points, so seeing you add some in is nice.

My one request would be to keep the endless turning in US or have it in both US and the new one.

Thanks.

[Infiltraitor]

Perhaps you are right, I admit I've not capped a divine. I just note that armored fvs and cleric(ignoring Paladins as they are insanely durable by any standard) far outlast non-wf arcanes, even Pale Masters.

In my experience with tanking, if you far outlast your team, you are doing something wrong.

1) You let your allied team die.
2) You let the enemy team live.

Both of which are VERY VERY VERY bad things. Both of which seem to happen a great deal with favored souls, clerics, and paladins as implied by your post.

[Hathorian]

Some more feedback....The Angel of Vengeance tree is geared towards force, light and fire spells but as far as I know divines only get 1 fire spell. If you provided Scorching Ray SLA in the EA sphere (instead of sun bolt perhaps or somewhere in tier 1-3 would be even better) I would be in heaven. That would be so amazing.

[SirValentine]

...as far as I know divines only get 1 fire spell.

The selection's not great, but there are 3:

• Symbol of Flame
• Flame Strike
• Fire Storm

[Ancient]

Perhaps you are right, I admit I've not capped a divine. I just note that armored fvs and cleric(ignoring Paladins as they are insanely durable by any standard) far outlast non-wf arcanes, even Pale Masters. Perhaps thats a matter of who I run with. I'd actually like to see a move to bring the two together, my sorc has long wanted a fire-based heal shot for himself, even just a little one. And I would like to see DPS divine, even close to draconic, I just meant it should not MATCH it considering the extent to which a draconic-targeted sorc has to pigeon-hole themselves. Even then, if they opened draconic-sorc options up to make sorcs more versatile AS CASTERS(eldritch has no bearing on this), I'd be down for throwing the doors wide open. Hell if they made exalted deal in fire as opposed to light, I'd be in it faster than words convey, unfortunately there's no light-savant, so the tree can't work with me.

Sorc's are not in bad shape. Most people on the forum seem to think they are ahead of wizards right now for shiradi (I disagree... but many do believe so).

I know a dark-elf pure draconic sorc on thelanis that runs around in plate with a tower shield. Almost 5k mana and dps that my best toon can only dream of. He has to play caster style survival (kill fast, stay away). I know another robot 16 sorc/2 fvs/2 pal sorc air savant/shiradi that is one of the most survivable builds I've ever seen. He also kills fast and survives well.

I have not met a divine build that comes close to matching either of those... not even my old NovaSoul. My main used to be a FVS, I switched to palemaster because it was a huge increase in survivability. Lets look at the options:
* Pure FVS/Cleric instakill - Needs help with the DCs, doesn't have displacement, doesn't have feats for dodge. I hope the new revamp makes this stronger.
* Splash monk/pally for survival. A light based build can do EEs with this, but it still kills slower than an arcane and kill speed helps survival. Viable, yes, but it brings less dps and less damage avoidance than an arcane.

I'm about to start working through my 12 divine sphere past lives. It is a sad statement that I'll be doing that as a wizard because after testing many builds... that was the one I found with the best balance of survival and killing power.