How much STR does a Monk REALLY need?

[Requimatic]

See title.

How much is enough? The only feat with a STR requirement a Monk could be interested in getting is Overwhelming Critical, which also requires three feats; one of which you'd be getting anyway (Imp Crit: Bludgeon) if you stick with wraps. To top that off, you also want to pump WIS for your DCs (QP, SF, Jade Strike line should you take them, Dismissing Strike..). So how much STR is really necessary?

My Monk had been built with STR in mind back in '09. I'd taken Stunning Blow over Stunning Fist, since I figured it would have a better DC. However, currently, even with as much STR as my Monk has unbuffed, the DC on Stunning Fist is slightly higher. Odd, but it is what it is.

Essentially I plan to TR the Monk and play through it again, because it's extremely fun and I enjoy the class. However the second go around, I'd planned on abandoning a pure STR build and pumping WIS for said ability DCs. I know now that a lot of a Monk's melee damage comes from targets being helpless, which is where WIS and SF comes in to play. However, at the same time, I don't want to abandon all STR and leave said damage, even with good DCs, lower than it could have been.

Unbuffed, and unstanced, my Monk's stats are the following (L19):

Half-Orc
STR: 32 (base 22, +2 tome, +2 H-Orc enhancements, +6 item)
DEX: 25 (base 16, +2 tome, +1 Ninja-Spy enhancement (should be WIS), +6 item)
CON: 24 (base 16, +2 tome, +6 item)
WIS: 21 (base 10, +3 tome, +2 Shintao enhancements, +6 item)

Whenever I was going to TR, I'd planned on going Human. Admittedly the Half-Orc racials aren't that great for a Monk. +3 to Power Attack is useful, I guess, but I can see it being a problem in epic levels with a -8 to hit, so I'd be okay losing that. The +3 Will saves are nice. The bonus STR when damaged is okay, but honestly I shouldn't be staying damaged, so those lose value highly.

As Human, I could get a damage action boost and +1 WIS with just 3 AP. If I had spare AP to spend, I could get more goodies, but I doubt I'd have much to spare if I go for the +2 WIS I can get form the Ninja-Spy tree.. which I should be doing. Since I have a +2 tome for DEX, I could get away with a base of 15 for the TWF feats and have 17 by the time I needed to grab ITWF and GTWF. A +3 or greater would be even better, but that would delay getting one of the TWF feats by a few levels at least, I believe.

With what I currently have, I don't think I could pull off a build that had a high enough WIS for DCs, and the ability to get Overwhelming Critical. With that, I think I should focus on just pumping WIS, and eventually getting Improved Martial Arts, Vorpal Strikes, and something else. Not sure what yet, as I've not loaded this up in the generator to see what I'd be capable of obtaining.

But this brings me back to my initial question: how much STR is necessary? If I go in knowing I won't be able to get OvC, then I could afford to neglect STR a little. I could also just forgo Power Attack entirely and instead get Precision, which would give a much higher hit chance, and -25% enemy fortification.

What does everyone think? Monks only seem to get +1 to damage rolls for every 2 STR, so neglecting mine a bit wouldn't seem to hurt that much given I'd have a much higher DC on everything, and potentially doing more damage on criticals in general with Precision.

Edit: on a semi-related note, how much Concentration is also necessary? I believe I've upped mine every level, sitting at 48 with some random mods from items. Obviously the more banked Ki the better, but there's likely a break-point of some kind where I should dump points in to something else. I've admittedly neglected my Monk's Jump skill a little more than I'd have liked to.. hah.

[str8nger]

My opinion only of course...but max WIS first...then give yourself enough DEX for the TWF feats taking into account your tomes as well..then spread it out with CON and STR. My Legend Monk is Drow, does have +5 tomes across the board though, and she sits at the stats below unbuffed at lvl 28.

30 STR
32 DEX
34 CON
16 INT
50 WIS
16 CHA

i know i only started with a 13 str and took no power attack, but rather went with Resilience and the dodge line with deflect arrows. My dmg numbers make me happy with only a 30 STR...i do not feel like i miss anything by having a low STR.

my SF DC is 70 unbuffed...stuns almost everything. then my dmg is huge.

second life, i would say going human...start with no more than 12 if you decide to avoide the PA line...then try a few points in INT to stop neglecting your jump lol.

for whatever its worth...

[Requimatic]

My opinion only of course...but max WIS first...then give yourself enough DEX for the TWF feats taking into account your tomes as well..then spread it out with CON and STR. My Legend Monk is Drow, does have +5 tomes across the board though, and she sits at the stats below unbuffed at lvl 28.

30 STR
32 DEX
34 CON
16 INT
50 WIS
16 CHA

i know i only started with a 13 str and took no power attack, but rather went with Resilience and the dodge line with deflect arrows. My dmg numbers make me happy with only a 30 STR...i do not feel like i miss anything by having a low STR.

my SF DC is 70 unbuffed...stuns almost everything. then my dmg is huge.

second life, i would say going human...start with no more than 12 if you decide to avoide the PA line...then try a few points in INT to stop neglecting your jump lol.

for whatever its worth...

I'd never thought about Resilience before. I can see it being a very viable option, though.. +4 saves is nothing to laugh at. In regards to Precision.. I know how useful that is for Rogues, since fortification nullifies Sneak Attack damage, but I'm not sure it's anywhere near as useful for Monks, whose damage doesn't consist of SA primarily.

[str8nger]

I'd never thought about Resilience before. I can see it being a very viable option, though.. +4 saves is nothing to laugh at. In regards to Precision.. I know how useful that is for Rogues, since fortification nullifies Sneak Attack damage, but I'm not sure it's anywhere near as useful for Monks, whose damage doesn't consist of SA primarily.

just know there is a requirement for Resilience also...i think its 13 CON...and I get some SA damage from taking points in ninja spy...when helpless i can crit around 400-800 depending on whats going on...i personally no longer take Precision but always take Resilience now...plus its a defensive stance if you ever decide on bulwark of defense or multi with anything else that uses defensive stance bonuses...

[Munkenmo]

Stat priorities on a monk
first 17dex to qualify for g twf.
second maximum wisdom.
third 23str for overwhelming critical.
fourth, if you can achieve these with tomes, put left over points into constitution.

My monk this life is a bladeforged (you can find it by googling munkenmo woodfist)
the initial stats look like this.

17str + 5 tome + 1 level
12dex + 5 tome
11 con +5 tome
8 int + 5 tome
16 wis + 5tome + 6 levels
8 cha + 5 tome

The 12dex +5 tome only works because I've splashed 2 fighter levels, any pure monk would need atleast 13dex with a +4 tome to reasonably pick up itwf and gtwf.

I'm not a big fan of pushing for saves on monks, they've got improved evasion and a good save progression anyway.

My str is a lot lower than a more standardized str based blitz or fury build, in quest with standard gear and buffs I'm still running about with a strength in the mid 40's. The thing is that EIN and QP are what you bring to parties in this day and age, if people want dps, a monk comes in a long way behind a blitzer of furyshotter.

[EllisDee37]

The only feat with a STR requirement a Monk could be interested in getting is Overwhelming Critical, which also requires three feats; one of which you'd be getting anyway (Imp Crit: Bludgeon) if you stick with wraps.

Cleave and Great Cleave are both awesome for unarmed monks.

[Requimatic]

Stat priorities on a monk
first 17dex to qualify for g twf.
second maximum wisdom.
third 23str for overwhelming critical.
fourth, if you can achieve these with tomes, put left over points into constitution.

My monk this life is a bladeforged (you can find it by googling munkenmo woodfist)
the initial stats look like this.

17str + 5 tome + 1 level
12dex + 5 tome
11 con +5 tome
8 int + 5 tome
16 wis + 5tome + 6 levels
8 cha + 5 tome

The 12dex +5 tome only works because I've splashed 2 fighter levels, any pure monk would need atleast 13dex with a +4 tome to reasonably pick up itwf and gtwf.

I'm not a big fan of pushing for saves on monks, they've got improved evasion and a good save progression anyway.

My str is a lot lower than a more standardized str based blitz or fury build, in quest with standard gear and buffs I'm still running about with a strength in the mid 40's. The thing is that EIN and QP are what you bring to parties in this day and age, if people want dps, a monk comes in a long way behind a blitzer of furyshotter.

True enough about saves. There's also GM Ocean Stance, which provides quite a boost. I think my Monk is sitting at 40/43/40 in Ocean Stance without spectacular equipment. Don't quote me on that, though. But Epic Destinies (and twists) are totally new to me. I've looked over them, and as a Monk figured I'd probably go for Grandmaster of Flowers first for obvious reasons. But it'll be a long time before I get to that point.

I'm also very restricted tome-wise at the moment. Hopefully on my way to 20 (and beyond) I'll get lucky and roll some more +3s, and +4s for the ones I've already +3'd. Here's to hoping. Even with a TR (34 points), I'm kind of limited at recreation. :/

Cleave and Great Cleave are both awesome for unarmed monks.

I've heard this multiple times, but have yet to try it out. Admittedly I never even used Cleave on my Fighter back in '09, just my Barb.. and I rarely used it then because things died so quickly it rarely mattered. But now that it's required for OvC.. I can see myself eventually committing to getting and using them. But until I'm full up on +5 tomes (or at least in STR/DEX/WIS, with at least a +4 in CON hopefully), I won't be able to manage a build like that.

Honestly, even a pumped WIS build is going to be sub-par with what I have. I think what I came up with in the character generator only ended up with an unbuffed WIS of 32, not counting destinies or equipment.

[quickgrif]

My opinion only of course...but max WIS first...then give yourself enough DEX for the TWF feats taking into account your tomes as well..then spread it out with CON and STR. My Legend Monk is Drow, does have +5 tomes across the board though, and she sits at the stats below unbuffed at lvl 28.

30 STR
32 DEX
34 CON
16 INT
50 WIS
16 CHA

i know i only started with a 13 str and took no power attack, but rather went with Resilience and the dodge line with deflect arrows. My dmg numbers make me happy with only a 30 STR...i do not feel like i miss anything by having a low STR.

my SF DC is 70 unbuffed...stuns almost everything. then my dmg is huge.

second life, i would say going human...start with no more than 12 if you decide to avoide the PA line...then try a few points in INT to stop neglecting your jump lol.

for whatever its worth...

Just out of curiosity can you give me a break down of your current stats. Been gone from the game too long and would like to know how you get your current stats.

[Requimatic]

Just out of curiosity can you give me a break down of your current stats. Been gone from the game too long and would like to know how you get your current stats.

There are +5 tomes now, which account for a lot. SUPER expensive though. Other than that, it's race/class enhancements, items (+6 are common, but there's a lot more now with +7 and up, plus exceptional bonuses, which stack with enhancement bonuses and other exceptional bonuses of different values), and also.. the Epic feat line "Great [stat]" allows you to +1 any stat multiple times. I don't think any build uses those, though, due to the other epic feats being much, much better.

And to top that off, there's also Epic Destinies, which allow for even more.

[str8nger]

Quickgrif - in response to your question- i do have +5 tomes across the board...I also have +8, +9 or +10 stat items with +1 exceptional and +2 insightful as well. I have boosted WIS on all lvl ups but one, i gave 1 to Con to even things out and i took +7 Wis with enhancements and epic destiny..i think it was 7...my starting stats are below...

Legend Drow...and this is off memory...so could be off one or two
14-Str
14-Dex
12-CON
nothing in Int
18-WIS
nothing in Cha

but again, i could be off one or two...hope that helps...sorry for the lack of detail.


after looking at it more, im almost positive those are wrong lol...i will look when i get home and put up the correct numbers just for accuracy sake..

[quickgrif]

Quickgrif - in response to your question- i do have +5 tomes across the board...I also have +8, +9 or +10 stat items with +1 exceptional and +2 insightful as well. I have boosted WIS on all lvl ups but one, i gave 1 to Con to even things out and i took +7 Wis with enhancements and epic destiny..i think it was 7...my starting stats are below...

Legend Drow...and this is off memory...so could be off one or two
14-Str
14-Dex
12-CON
nothing in Int
18-WIS
nothing in Cha

but again, i could be off one or two...hope that helps...sorry for the lack of detail.


after looking at it more, im almost positive those are wrong lol...i will look when i get home and put up the correct numbers just for accuracy sake..

Thank you for the effort just trying to do my usual research to get up to speed on the game before logging in. (re dling the client now.) My mains current life is a half orc str build so trying to learn what has changed with monks now.

[Dalsheel]

Thank you for the effort just trying to do my usual research to get up to speed on the game before logging in. (re dling the client now.) My mains current life is a half orc str build so trying to learn what has changed with monks now.

Monks have not changed in matters of being a melee DPS class. You still need STR.

Do yourself a favor and ignore the "put all level ups into wisdom" posts.

Monk is by far my favourite class in this game, I have played it a lot and have studied it even more. There is no need to pump wisdom any higher than the minimum required to qualify for Vorpal Strikes.

My monk's stats look like this (race is Half-Elf):

STR: 16 starting + 5 tome + 5 level ups
DEX: 14 starting + 5 tome
CON: 16 starting + 5 tome
INT: 8 starting + 5 tome
WIS: 16 starting + 5 tome + 2 level ups
CHA: 8 starting + 5 tome

I can still hit 50 wisdom with yugo pot and end game gear in Earth Stance, have no trouble stunning anything and I keep my red-named DPS to a more than decent level.

Adjust the numbers to your liking/needs, but overall keep your STR as high as possible because it is NOT a dump stat for any melee utilizing it for damage.


-Dal

[Munkenmo]

Monks have not changed in matters of being a melee DPS class. You still need STR.

Do yourself a favor and ignore the "put all level ups into wisdom" posts.

It was fairly good advice for most monks before the Quivering Palm nerf, Provided they did reach 23str for Overwhelming crit.

Now I'd say the opposite is true.

Get 23wis for Vorpal Fists, put the remainder of your levels in str.

[Dalsheel]

It was fairly good advice for most monks before the Quivering Palm nerf, Provided they did reach 23str for Overwhelming crit.

Now I'd say the opposite is true.

Get 23wis for Vorpal Fists, put the remainder of your levels in str.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

EDIT: If you're saying that putting all level ups in Wisdom before the QP nerf was a good idea, I disagree. It's never a good idea to cripple your red-named DPS on a melee toon.

[moo_cow]

This is exactly what I'm saying.

EDIT: If you're saying that putting all level ups in Wisdom before the QP nerf was a good idea, I disagree. It's never a good idea to cripple your red-named DPS on a melee toon.

I don't think most people would put all level ups into wisdom, cause I agree that's a bad idea. I put the 2 level up points into str and the rest into wisdom to get OC. But not having that 5 strength barely hurts dps for the ability to insta kill everything in the game(at that time at least).

[TeacherSyn]

Monks have not changed in matters of being a melee DPS class. You still need STR.

Do yourself a favor and ignore the "put all level ups into wisdom" posts.

Monk is by far my favourite class in this game, I have played it a lot and have studied it even more. There is no need to pump wisdom any higher than the minimum required to qualify for Vorpal Strikes.

My monk's stats look like this (race is Half-Elf):

STR: 16 starting + 5 tome + 5 level ups
DEX: 14 starting + 5 tome
CON: 16 starting + 5 tome
INT: 8 starting + 5 tome
WIS: 16 starting + 5 tome + 2 level ups
CHA: 8 starting + 5 tome

I can still hit 50 wisdom with yugo pot and end game gear in Earth Stance, have no trouble stunning anything and I keep my red-named DPS to a more than decent level.

Adjust the numbers to your liking/needs, but overall keep your STR as high as possible because it is NOT a dump stat for any melee utilizing it for damage.


-Dal

The sole exception to this, by design, is the armed Ninja Spy. While still a melee class, their training uses DEX exclusively for attack rolls and damage when using piercing/slashing weapons. When in unarmed mode, the same rules of STR for damage and DEX for to-hit apply to ninjas, too. Since oozes and rust monsters will eat your shortswords, everyone should have at least 12 STR, enough for some levers and for unarmed fighting.

[fool101]

If a person can qualify for OC, wouldn't they be better off putting the rest into wis? It seems to me that 1-2 DC SF alone will mean more than 1-2 damage modifier. Although I will concede that I have not played the U21 content and my understanding is that SF will not do much for those mobs, so maybe that changes things.

[Fallout_Zero]

If a person can qualify for OC, wouldn't they be better off putting the rest into wis? It seems to me that 1-2 DC SF alone will mean more than 1-2 damage modifier. Although I will concede that I have not played the U21 content and my understanding is that SF will not do much for those mobs, so maybe that changes things.

SF means nothing against red names and bosses. On high fort mobs like EE giants 70 isn't enough. So hope you have some decent dps.

[moo_cow]

SF means nothing against red names and bosses. On high fort mobs like EE giants 70 isn't enough. So hope you have some decent dps.

That's why you get a 80 stunning fist dc instead

[Zoda]

I don't think most people would put all level ups into wisdom, cause I agree that's a bad idea. I put the 2 level up points into str and the rest into wisdom to get OC. But not having that 5 strength barely hurts dps for the ability to insta kill everything in the game(at that time at least).

^That.^