Give Us A Reason to Run the New Raids on EE/EH

[Ungood]

Good points and thanks for your perspective...and I agree that your "What IFs" are present and actual for some players.
I also feel that more good will come from adding incentives to keep us coming back to replay the content.
That more good will come from adding incentives for newer players or typical EN and EH players will strive for.
I know that without incentives, I will play the content for fun and enjoyment and challenge at first, and then to help friends and guildies get that one piece they need. Then every so often (once every other month maybe) join a pug to help the community. So after the fun/enjoyment/challenge is gone (at most, 20 runs each), I won't be hosting or filling many LFMs...and from my experiences and observations, neither will others...
...and LFM's taking too much time to fill...I'm sure you've probably experienced those...not fun.
Also, I really believe the incentive should not be an Uber jump in item power.

Fair enough: So how do you think this scaling loot incentive would change the way you approached the raid? What would be different for you in both the short term and long term?

[ishr]

The fact that there are people on this very topic that passionately disagree with you, might be indicative that it's not working as well as you might think it is, just saying.

there will always be people who want EE reward for EN effort, and your implication that anything short of unanimous support invalidates our suggestion is impractical. instead, to address this my suggestion is to make the EE reward only minimally better than EN. this way EN players will not be missing out on some vital must-have reward (whatever the form it takes). looking back, the overwhelming majority of EE loot is barely better than EN, and there has never been an EE item which was necessary for the completion of some quest.

however there will still be that tiny slice of people who vehemently oppose any difference however small, and DEMAND that they get even that tiny incremental reward given out to the EE players. that would be you. in spite of numerous other players suggesting a creative variety of reward methods, all with the consideration for players of ALL difficulties, you still grasp tightly to this notion that somehow DDO will go down in flames if we encourage players to run anything other than EN. we have brought up numerous and creative ways to both be considerate to the EN-only crowd give a little extra bonus from running EE, and although we don't all agree on exactly how it should be done, we do agree on one thing: that EE needs to offer better incentive.

the truly astounding aspect of all this is that under most our suggestions, the EN player actually experiences no change to his raid experience. it's interesting that simply the thought of someone else having an improved gaming experience, even at no cost to the EN player, is unacceptable to some.

[Ungood]

there will always be people who want EE reward for EN effort, and your implication that anything short of unanimous support invalidates our suggestion is impractical. instead, to address this my suggestion is to make the EE reward only minimally better than EN. this way EN players will not be missing out on some vital must-have reward (whatever the form it takes). looking back, the overwhelming majority of EE loot is barely better than EN, and there has never been an EE item which was necessary for the completion of some quest.

however there will still be that tiny slice of people who vehemently oppose any difference however small, and DEMAND that they get even that tiny incremental reward given out to the EE players. that would be you. in spite of numerous other players suggesting a creative variety of reward methods, all with the consideration for players of ALL difficulties, you still grasp tightly to this notion that somehow DDO will go down in flames if we encourage players to run anything other than EN. we have brought up numerous and creative ways to both be considerate to the EN-only crowd give a little extra bonus from running EE, and although we don't all agree on exactly how it should be done, we do agree on one thing: that EE needs to offer better incentive.

the truly astounding aspect of all this is that under most our suggestions, the EN player actually experiences no change to his raid experience. it's interesting that simply the thought of someone else having an improved gaming experience, even at no cost to the EN player, is unacceptable to some.

Umm, look, I have no idea who you are talking to with this post, so, I am going to have to ask you to remove your reference to my post, as this response has nothing to do with anything I have actually said.

Thank you.

[EllisDee37]

there will always be people who want EE reward for EN effort, and your implication that anything short of unanimous support invalidates our suggestion is impractical. instead, to address this my suggestion is to make the EE reward only minimally better than EN. this way EN players will not be missing out on some vital must-have reward (whatever the form it takes). looking back, the overwhelming majority of EE loot is barely better than EN, and there has never been an EE item which was necessary for the completion of some quest.

however there will still be that tiny slice of people who vehemently oppose any difference however small, and DEMAND that they get even that tiny incremental reward given out to the EE players. that would be you. in spite of numerous other players suggesting a creative variety of reward methods, all with the consideration for players of ALL difficulties, you still grasp tightly to this notion that somehow DDO will go down in flames if we encourage players to run anything other than EN. we have brought up numerous and creative ways to both be considerate to the EN-only crowd give a little extra bonus from running EE, and although we don't all agree on exactly how it should be done, we do agree on one thing: that EE needs to offer better incentive.

the truly astounding aspect of all this is that under most our suggestions, the EN player actually experiences no change to his raid experience. it's interesting that simply the thought of someone else having an improved gaming experience, even at no cost to the EN player, is unacceptable to some.

You seem to think that the only possible incentive for running EE must be improved loot.

Shroud does the incentive for running elite correctly, and it's all the same loot. Use that model.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Fair enough: So how do you think this scaling loot incentive would change the way you approached the raid? What would be different for you in both the short term and long term?

To answer your second questions first:
Short term change in my playing the two new raids = nothing = I'd get with friends and guild and attempt it on hard, then hard again, then normal a few runs, then more hard while discussing strategy regarding Elite and mixing in PUG groups to pick and share ideas...then Elite and hard runs and more PUG runs.
Long term change in my playing the two new raids = continued hosting and joining Guild runs or PUGs on a once a week type basis in the hunt for gear or loot...either EE or EH runs depending on what is available (incentive wise) and what the group matrix is atm.

Back to the first part of your question, I'd like to first clarify that I think the scaling loot incentives should apply to all epic content...but to specifically speak to the two new Raids, I'd approach them the same way I do now but would later incorporate the weekly type cycle I mention above.
Note too that I get bored with repetitive runs, so I compensate with a mix of TRs and also building competent flavor characters <-- competent = having fun in EH content.
So to get to the point, I think my playing the Raids long term will depend on the type of loot incentive they implement.
If each difficulty level of the Raids was the same gear but at a lower minimum level, then I'd be working toward better level-up gear (similar to running the Shroud).
If each difficulty level of the Raids was slightly stronger gear, then I'd be working at better EE/EH gearing.
If each difficulty level of the Raids was dropping unique one time use consumables that gave your character a permanent increase in power (similar to my post here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...83#post5253183 ) BTcoA, then I'd work at getting each of my characters capable to farming the Raids on EH and EE.
If each difficulty level of the Raids was adding a few unique augments that were BTcoE, then I'd farm them for myself at first, then friends, then back to myself for making money on the AH.
What other types of incentive loot is there...I'm sure I'm missing some/lots.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

You seem to think that the only possible incentive for running EE must be improved loot.

Shroud does the incentive for running elite correctly, and it's all the same loot. Use that model.

I think some clarity is needed.

The Shroud Raid end reward system is about getting crafting ingredients. These crafting ingredients make gear/weapons that are useful for both leveling and current end-game...from 11 to 28.

WHAT IF the shroud end rewards were level 16 appropriate gear/weapons/items, and if ran on EE with 2 or even 5 more chests available for that greater chance at getting the level 16 appropriate gear. Would anyone still look at running shrouds on a regular basis? Would any new player even know what the Shroud is? My personal guess and experiences say no...absolutely no.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Adding a unique augment to EE would be a good enough reason to get people running it if it's decent. N/H/E loot probably has a very negative effect on players who can't handle EE or feel excluded due to people running it in guilds and channels. Turbine probably has numbers on this which is why they're changing to a system that is more casual friendly... unfortunately at the expense of players looking for reasons to run EE. At any rate, adding unbound augments to EE from this list could help perhaps?

Yellow
Healing Amp 30%, min level 28
Doublestrike 10%, min level 28

Blue
DR 20/-, min level 28
Superior Fortification (150%), min level 28

Red
Your weapon's base critical profile becomes 18-20 x3, min level 28
Your weapon gains improved vampirism (1d6) and drains one level on a vorpal hit

All of those look both attractive and simultaneously not overpowered. I don't know how hard the crit profile augment would be to code, but that's a very interesting and attractive augment - bringing the weaker, but interesting weapons up to par with the weapons that have a good crit profile is something that I've wanted to see for a long time.

[Ungood]

To answer your second questions first:
Short term change in my playing the two new raids = nothing = I'd get with friends and guild and attempt it on hard, then hard again, then normal a few runs, then more hard while discussing strategy regarding Elite and mixing in PUG groups to pick and share ideas

Ok, so this is a view coming from someone that can fill a static raid group. I can see why the varying approach, as someone like myself who is from a small guild (We do not have enough members to even fill a raid group).

It makes sense that different game styles, and play styles will view the changes and their impact very differently.

Anyway, I have to ask a question: Why should there be any incentive to do any difficulty other then the one you are comfortable doing?

Ponder this, with the current game system, there is really no "exp" cap so players can and will remain on a treadmill of EXP grind, thanks to the eTR/Karma system. Not to mention the grind for Com's (both valor and heroism) which will keep many players occupied to upgrade any gear they get.

In that venture, wound't just the more Exp, Karma and Com's be sufficient incentive for those that are comfortable doing elite?

I guess the question is, Why should anyone feel like they are being herded to one difficulty over another? Why should elite be put on a pedestal, Shouldn't players simply be free to do whatever difficulty they feel comfortable with?

Here is my biggest contention with this, I question if this incentive as it has been put out would unfortunately lead to people trying to a difficulty they simply are not able to be do, or have no place even trying to do.

What if, this just ends up like Bravery/Streak, where you have first life 100 HP wonders trying to do Elite Giant Hold, because, "OMG I need my streak man!" and that becomes the new problem with the end game raid, and it just makes matters worse, as opposed to better for everyone involved?

In the end, as odd as this may sound, there is a good chance I will never do this raid, mainly because I have little no incentive to hold on to end game items, I enjoy the TR process in DDO, so, unless it has amazing twink gear (and I mean like ML21 Stuff, that I could use to make an eTR a cake walk like GS works for Heroic) I may never set foot into this raid at all.

However, because of that, I might be missing something integral about people who like to float at cap, and in that front, If your first hand knowledge fills you with a feeling of this being a great idea, then, stick to that.

I am just point out concerns

[Ungood]

I think some clarity is needed.

The Shroud Raid end reward system is about getting crafting ingredients. These crafting ingredients make gear/weapons that are useful for both leveling and current end-game...from 11 to 28.

WHAT IF the shroud end rewards were level 16 appropriate gear/weapons/items, and if ran on EE with 2 or even 5 more chests available for that greater chance at getting the level 16 appropriate gear. Would anyone still look at running shrouds on a regular basis? Would any new player even know what the Shroud is? My personal guess and experiences say no...absolutely no.

I think what EllisDee is trying to point out is that the extra chests in Shroud mean something, they mean MORE chances at MORE of the raid loot, unlike the chests in CitW and other raids, where the added chests mean nothing but more Loot-Gen/Vendor Trash.

If each chest in CitW offered the same chance to have the raid loot (whatever that chance was), then elite becomes soo much more worth it, because you now have triple the chances to get what you want, as opposed to just getting added vendor junk for your efforts.

IE: If you got 1 Epic Chest for a EN VoN 6, 2 Epic Chests for a EH Von 6, and 3 Epic Chests for a EE Von 6, players would be falling over themselves to do elite, even if the loot was the same for all difficulties, because the chances to get what they are looking for double and triple for them, and that is enough of an incentive to keep them working for the harder difficulties.

That is what I think their point was.

If I am wrong EllisDee, let me know.

[Nightmanis]

Adding a unique augment to EE would be a good enough reason to get people running it if it's decent. N/H/E loot probably has a very negative effect on players who can't handle EE or feel excluded due to people running it in guilds and channels. Turbine probably has numbers on this which is why they're changing to a system that is more casual friendly... unfortunately at the expense of players looking for reasons to run EE. At any rate, adding unbound augments to EE from this list could help perhaps?

Yellow
Healing Amp 30%, min level 28
Doublestrike 10%, min level 28

Blue
DR 20/-, min level 28
Superior Fortification (150%), min level 28

Red
Your weapon's base critical profile becomes 18-20 x3, min level 28
Your weapon gains improved vampirism (1d6) and drains one level on a vorpal hit

Ok that one red augment would be far too powerful, considering how many people would just slot it into their axes. However, giving 2 different augments that either grant +1 to crit range or +1 to crit mod on 19-20 would be a massive incentive to run EE. Giving both on a single augment is far too powerful. If you really want to make a powerful augment, made the +1 to crit range and on 19-20 a blue augment with 25% the drop rate of the other 2. Basically, make it like farming out the ESOS.

[ishr]

Ok that one red augment would be far too powerful, considering how many people would just slot it into their axes. However, giving 2 different augments that either grant +1 to crit range or +1 to crit mod on 19-20 would be a massive incentive to run EE. Giving both on a single augment is far too powerful. If you really want to make a powerful augment, made the +1 to crit range and on 19-20 a blue augment with 25% the drop rate of the other 2. Basically, make it like farming out the ESOS.

i agree with this statement. i also like the original idea of making an augment the EE-specific item. this is because the item is widely applicable.

[jalont]

My vote is to set all raid chest loot % the same for all difficulties:

EN: 1 chest
EH: 2 chests
EE: 4 chests

Shroud did the incentive system right, so just use that going forward. EE is a much bigger jump from EH than HE is from HH, though, so instead of three chests make it four.

EDIT: This assumes the loot is the same on all difficulties, which I think they should be. It should just be way easier to get the loot you want on EE than it is on EH or EN. Significantly, visibly easier. An increased % isn't visible. Two more chests is visible.

This is the correct answer.

[macadope]

I think some pretty good arguments have been made if or both sides of this debate, with the exception of ungood and impaqt, who both seem so blinded by rage at an inability to complete on EE that they seem to ignore reason altogether.

I like the idea of marginal increases on different difficulty, as pulling the hard versions would help to complete on EE. So you could work your way up to the ultimate prize EE loot.

I'm also for the loot being the same but with lower ML for higher difficulties, as this makes it more potent as well.

I really enjoyed epic LOB when it came out, it took a lot of planning and excellent and well geared players just to complete, and completion wasn't guaranteed.
Please don't cite this raid nowadays as everyone knows the loot table is broken and not 12 people can really agree on what difficulty to run. If anything the lack of proper loot supports this argument as no one runs it for lack of proper loot tables.

[Nightmanis]

This is the correct answer.

Combine this idea (we'll call this Shroud chesting) with the idea from Tor and what I was also saying of giving special items (augments, for instance) available only on certain difficulties.

1 Chest on Normal, 2 on Hard, 4 on Elite, Hard has a chance at dropping certain special named augments and Elite has a chance at dropping those augments, some more even more powerful augments, and maybe a couple special named items. With plenty of augment slots. All difficulties have the base 4 items that Doc Oc showed us.

I would run the HELL out of those quests if that's what it ended up doing.

[zwiebelring]

/signed


But with army of causals feeling entitled to best rewards with no effort, its not going to happen :/

And that's a good thing.

[GeneralDiomedes]

And that's a good thing.

I don't know .. I am a casual but players need incentives to run content other than for the sake of playing.

[Vellrad]

And that's a good thing.

Then why not go a step further and give loot for just logging into game?

[Ungood]

I have been enjoying seeing the insight from posters like EllisDee and Komode_Corebasher, who seem to have the ability to look at things objectively and have a grasp of what went wrong with other incentives in the past, as well as being able to question ideas before them, what are their merits and demerits.

The others on this topic, don't seem to be able to get out of their rut of entitlement. But it's giving me insight into many things as I watch this little discussion unfold.

[Cyr]

My vote is to set all raid chest loot % the same for all difficulties:

EN: 1 chest
EH: 2 chests
EE: 4 chests

Shroud did the incentive system right, so just use that going forward. EE is a much bigger jump from EH than HE is from HH, though, so instead of three chests make it four.

EDIT: This assumes the loot is the same on all difficulties, which I think they should be. It should just be way easier to get the loot you want on EE than it is on EH or EN. Significantly, visibly easier. An increased % isn't visible. Two more chests is visible.

Shroud took years to get that change in. The whole time upto that elite runs were super uncommon even when normal was super easy for the group because time and reward do matter. Elite takes a non trivial amount of time more so it does need more rewards add in chance of failure increasing (ie no rewards) and you have a much bigger need for rewards.

I would say EN: 1 Chest, EH: 2 Chest, EE: 5 Chests if there is no unique loot in EE. If EE has unique loot then the proposed chest layout seems right to me.

[Scraap]

My vote is to set all raid chest loot % the same for all difficulties:

EN: 1 chest
EH: 2 chests
EE: 4 chests

Shroud did the incentive system right, so just use that going forward. EE is a much bigger jump from EH than HE is from HH, though, so instead of three chests make it four.

EDIT: This assumes the loot is the same on all difficulties, which I think they should be. It should just be way easier to get the loot you want on EE than it is on EH or EN. Significantly, visibly easier. An increased % isn't visible. Two more chests is visible.

I can get behind that. Clear incentives without distorting stat distributions keeps more content relevant longer after all, and I am a quest-*cough* er... junkie.