Best build to use SWF/Swashbuckler?

[droid327]

So since we seem to have more or less the final version of SWF and Swashbuckler, now...what do you think is the best build to take advantage of a SWF Swashbuckler?

Assuming pure Bard is still not a very attractive option...Bard 10 gives you CCW and Otto's Sphere, past that the returns get very minimal.

I was thinking Rogue 10; gets you Imp Evasion, sneak die, Improved Uncanny, and a couple active-attack +[W] enhancements low in the TA and Assassin tree, since Swash is probably going to take up most of your AP.

I looked at Sorc and FvS too for the CHA synergy, but Bard already has a lot of the Arcane buffs, and already has healing from the divine side, and I didn't know how useful L10 Sorc SLAs would remain through endgame, if you were already stacking Sonic SP on top of another element. But maybe an Air Savant is useful since its Sonic as well as Electric? Kinda weak SLAs, though, and probably wont have the AP to do much with it...

I also looked at Arti for a "Cannoneer" build...but again, not a lot in Arti 10 for a fleshie with Sonic SP, that already gets CHA-to-dmg.

Dark horse possibility: Bard 14/Ranger 6, pretty much just for Exposing Strike (and 3d6 sneak die) as a spammable rotation attack. With all the doublestrike, active +[W] or +crit attacks should be pretty useful.

[cru121]

But what about DDoor and FoM? To have enough slots for all spells, you need to be level 13. At that point, you can as well take 14 for +1 courage. And possibly 15 to qualify Inspire Excellence. And possibly 16 for OID. decisions...

[EllisDee37]

I'd probably go only with only 5 bard levels. Fighter would for sure get at least 4 levels, if not 8. (12 is pointless if you go with tier 5 swashbuckling.) Probably toss in some rogue for evasion.

Maybe 10/6/4 rogue/fighter/bard? Defensive roll (or improved evasion) is pretty nifty.

EDIT: I was thinking bladeforged for the self-healing, but that would be expensive to LR out all your pally levels, pay to change your alignment, and then LR a second time to get your bard levels. I guess stick with bard native healing. Figure a minimum of 7 bard levels for cure serious.

[unbongwah]

Fighter would for sure get at least 4 levels, if not 8. (12 is pointless if you go with tier 5 swashbuckling.)

Why? Ftr 12 gets you Power Surge (& more feats, ofc); it's ftr 8 that's semi-pointless if you're going T5 Swashbuckler, since you can't take Keen Edge then.

Maybe 10/6/4 rogue/fighter/bard? Defensive roll (or improved evasion) is pretty nifty.

In that case you lose both Swashbuckler and Kensei T5s; what would you take instead? Or did you mean bard 6 / ftr 4?

[droid327]

But what about DDoor and FoM? To have enough slots for all spells, you need to be level 13. At that point, you can as well take 14 for +1 courage. And possibly 15 to qualify Inspire Excellence. And possibly 16 for OID. decisions...

Really, IMO none of those are worth the tradeoff in levels in other classes. You can get by fine without FoM or get it from gear, and DDoor is at best a convenience (and you can scroll it, if you absolutely need it for a quest).

EDIT: I was thinking bladeforged for the self-healing, but that would be expensive to LR out all your pally levels, pay to change your alignment, and then LR a second time to get your bard levels. I guess stick with bard native healing. Figure a minimum of 7 bard levels for cure serious.

Yeah I should have mentioned originally - the original point was to take advantage of Bard's healing spells to make a decently self-healing/minor casting fleshie weapon fighter. I play a lot of WF Arti (and a Sorc) because they can self heal and have some offensive/CC capability, but there's no real counterpart to that on the fleshie side...all Divines really suffer from lack of feats and alternate stat-to-dmg.

So BF for the SLA heals kinda defeats the purpose, at that point you're trying to *avoid* Bard as much as possible

But feats are a problem too...you'd imagine you'd want the 3 SWF feats, IC, and Precision, which only leaves you 2 (3 if Human) options through L20. Emp Heal and Quicken for combat heals? Cleave and GC for AOE and going into LD later? 200% stat bonus makes those very usable.

[CThruTheEgo]

I've been looking at a lot of options for both swashbuckling and SWF. Here are some of the builds I've considered:

For the mostly bard options you've got:
A pure cha based purple dragon knight bard with orb in the offhand will have OK melee capability; decent defensive capabilities with 70+ PRR, 23% dodge, and good will and reflex saves with evasion (both 60+); and solid CC with a 55ish DC Otto's sphere (before debuffs such as mind fog).

A 16bard/2fighter/2rogue cha based purple dragon knight bard with buckler in the offhand trades 2 DC for some solid melee capability. It ends up with about 20% more doublestrike than the pure build; solid defensive capabilities with 90+ PRR, 27% dodge, and good will and reflex saves with evasion (both 60+); and solid CC with a 53ish DC Otto's sphere (before debuffs such as mind fog). So far, I think this is the best option of any of the builds I've worked out. It has an excellent combination of offense, defense, party support, and CC ability.

The following build only uses bard for swashbuckling and attempts to maximize the benefits of it and SWF by pumping str:
Human 12fighter/5bard/1cleric or FvS (leaves you with 2 more levels to spend, I like 6bard/2FvS personally) with a buckler in the offhand. Go for the tier 5s in swashbuckler, power surge in kensai, and cleric or FvS for divine might. With 200% stat boost to damage from GSWF and a str in the 80s, 30% doublestrike, the crit profile from swashbuckling stance and exploit weakness, this build may very well offer some of the highest dps in the game. But the defenses are significantly lacking. It can get a solid PRR in the 80s and around 23% dodge, but the saves will be useless for EE no matter what you do. Also no inherent incorp or displacement. Of course items/clickies can help with incorp and displacement, but nothing is going to make up for useless saves. They are this builds biggest weakness. Feithlin has already posted a 12fighter/7bard/1cleric variation of this build that includes a ranged option.

Then there is the SWF build that does not utilize swashbuckling:
Bladeforged 12fighter/6monk/2paladin with orb in the offhand. This build trades some of the offensive capability of the build above for solid defense. It has all the defensive capabilities that come with a bladeforged 6monk/2paladin - shadow veil, solid saves across the board, good PRR, dodge, recon SLA, etc. Offensively, it loses about 20% doublestrike as well as the benefits of swashbuckling stance.

You've also got some melee artificer options utilizing SWF, swashbuckling, or both. Any of these builds, however, will need to be mostly artificer since rune arm dps scales with arti level. I think this will offer an improvement for melee artificers, but I still don't consider melee artis optimal in any case. I elaborate on these options in this post from another thread.

There are probably also some melee/caster hybrid options for both arcanes and divines, but I haven't looked into any of those.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I've been looking at a lot of options for both swashbuckling and SWF. Here are some of the builds I've considered:

For the mostly bard options you've got:
A pure cha based purple dragon knight bard with orb in the offhand will have OK melee capability; decent defensive capabilities with 70+ PRR, 23% dodge, and good will and reflex saves with evasion (both 60+); and solid CC with a 55ish DC Otto's sphere (before debuffs such as mind fog).

A 16bard/2fighter/2rogue cha based purple dragon knight bard with buckler in the offhand trades 2 DC for some solid melee capability. It ends up with about 20% more doublestrike than the pure build; solid defensive capabilities with 90+ PRR, 27% dodge, and good will and reflex saves with evasion (both 60+); and solid CC with a 53ish DC Otto's sphere (before debuffs such as mind fog). So far, I think this is the best option of any of the builds I've worked out. It has an excellent combination of offense, defense, party support, and CC ability.

The following build only uses bard for swashbuckling and attempts to maximize the benefits of it and SWF by pumping str:
Human 12fighter/5bard/1cleric or FvS (leaves you with 2 more levels to spend, I like 6bard/2FvS personally) with a buckler in the offhand. Go for the tier 5s in swashbuckler, power surge in kensai, and cleric or FvS for divine might. With 200% stat boost to damage from GSWF and a str in the 80s, 30% doublestrike, the crit profile from swashbuckling stance and exploit weakness, this build may very well offer some of the highest dps in the game. But the defenses are significantly lacking. It can get a solid PRR in the 80s and around 23% dodge, but the saves will be useless for EE no matter what you do. Also no inherent incorp or displacement. Of course items/clickies can help with incorp and displacement, but nothing is going to make up for useless saves. They are this builds biggest weakness. Feithlin has already posted a 12fighter/7bard/1cleric variation of this build that includes a ranged option.

Then there is the SWF build that does not utilize swashbuckling:
Bladeforged 12fighter/6monk/2paladin with orb in the offhand. This build trades some of the offensive capability of the build above for solid defense. It has all the defensive capabilities that come with a bladeforged 6monk/2paladin - shadow veil, solid saves across the board, good PRR, dodge, recon SLA, etc. Offensively, it loses about 20% doublestrike as well as the benefits of swashbuckling stance.

You've also got some melee artificer options utilizing SWF, swashbuckling, or both. Any of these builds, however, will need to be mostly artificer since rune arm dps scales with arti level. I think this will offer an improvement for melee artificers, but I still don't consider melee artis optimal in any case. I elaborate on these options in this post from another thread.

There are probably also some melee/caster hybrid options for both arcanes and divines, but I haven't looked into any of those.

Have you seen the wolf form druid that uses twf and swf, 30% alacrity from wolf, another 30% from swf, and another 25% from fatal harrier, with 90% off hand from either splashing monk or ranger, and I don't know how much double strike but its a wolf form druid so probably in the 50-70 range?

[CThruTheEgo]

Have you seen the wolf form druid that uses twf and swf, 30% alacrity from wolf, another 30% from swf, and another 25% from fatal harrier, with 90% off hand from either splashing monk or ranger, and I don't know how much double strike but its a wolf form druid so probably in the 50-70 range?

I have not. I'm not too familiar with melee druids. I would suspect that there is more than one combination of things you mentioned in there that is not WAI, but if that's the case, it could be years before it gets fixed. And if wolf form is as borked as handwraps, it could be never.

[EllisDee37]

Why? Ftr 12 gets you Power Surge (& more feats, ofc); it's ftr 8 that's semi-pointless if you're going T5 Swashbuckler, since you can't take Keen Edge then.

Yep, you're right, I was confused. Fighter 12 has tangible value; it's 8 that loses its specialness.

In that case you lose both Swashbuckler and Kensei T5s; what would you take instead? Or did you mean bard 6 / ftr 4?

Yeah my bad, I meant bard 6 fighter 4.

[EllisDee37]

Taking a step back, is splashing enough artie to use runearms the ultimate no-brainer place to start? I've never played an artie, and don't even really understand runearms. I'm not fishing for an explanation of them, but more just a question: Since runearms work with SWF, does that make runearms a requirement for an optimal SWF build? As opposed to nothing in the offhand? Or maybe an orb?

But feats are a problem too...you'd imagine you'd want the 3 SWF feats, IC, and Precision, which only leaves you 2 (3 if Human) options through L20. Emp Heal and Quicken for combat heals? Cleave and GC for AOE and going into LD later? 200% stat bonus makes those very usable.

The feat problem makes fighter levels attractive, which is why I immediately went there. (Also, 30% hast boost with the full SWF line must be uber as all get-out.)

Note that taking cleave & great cleave requires 3 feats, not 2, since they have power attack as a prereq.

[FlaviusMaximus]

There are two builds that have interested me so far:

12 fighter/7 bard/1 fvs and 12 fvs/6 bard/2 rogue. Both do not have a ton of Bard levels because all three trees have access to bonus songs and the Fatesinger destiny provides a ton of songs if a lot of CC is needed. Bucklers would be the offhand item of choice in both builds.

The 12 fighter/7 bard/1 fvs is obviously a strength stacker to take advantage of SWF, and I expect variations of this type of build to be fairly common soon. 7 Bard gets access to fascinate undead as well as 3rd level spells (haste and displacement), 12 Fighter for Power Surge and Greater Specialization, and FVS is obviously for Divine Might and SP. Can go tier 5 in either Kensai or Swashbuckler. Really depends on whether a player wants insta-killing or expanded crit range.

12 FVS/6 Bard/2 Rogue is something that I'm calling (in my head) the Swiss Army Gimp. It might even work better as 11 Cleric/7 Bard/2 Rogue for access to Displacement and Haste. The idea is to have a non-raid based character that is built for extreme shortmanning (like one other person in the group - a necessity in my guild) and no matter who else joins, whether it's a Barbarian or Caster, a completion can be expected. The character does traps, single target healing (for emergencies and boss fights), some DPS, a little insta-killing through Swashbuckler, CC, and chest blessing. Really it's an everything bagel. I'm leveling it right now as a human with a fairly high starting int (16, with a couple points put into int at 4 and 8) to max out all trap and lock skills as well as Perform and UMD.

[CThruTheEgo]

Taking a step back, is splashing enough artie to use runearms the ultimate no-brainer place to start? I've never played an artie, and don't even really understand runearms. I'm not fishing for an explanation of them, but more just a question: Since runearms work with SWF, does that make runearms a requirement for an optimal SWF build? As opposed to nothing in the offhand? Or maybe an orb?

Rune arm damage scales with artificer level, so to get the most out of a rune arm in the offhand, you need to be mostly arti. SWF with a rune arm will be best suited for lightly splashed melee artis.

[droid327]

Rune arm damage scales with artificer level, so to get the most out of a rune arm in the offhand, you need to be mostly arti. SWF with a rune arm will be best suited for lightly splashed melee artis.

Plus their saves are based on INT, and almost exclusively Reflex, so unless you're heavily INT-invested (ie Rogue or Arti or Wiz) then everything is just going to save/evade anyway. All you're really getting is the imbue and the passive effects on the runearm itself - which arguably might still be better than any orb or buckler currently in game, but then you're also locked into /2 Arti.

[Dendrix]

Rune arm damage scales with artificer level, so to get the most out of a rune arm in the offhand, you need to be mostly arti. SWF with a rune arm will be best suited for lightly splashed melee artis.

the rune arm damange add to weapon doesn't scale, that's static.
The idea of the rune arm is that it powers up your single weapon, not that you are shooting it.

[CThruTheEgo]

Plus their saves are based on INT, and almost exclusively Reflex, so unless you're heavily INT-invested (ie Rogue or Arti or Wiz) then everything is just going to save/evade anyway. All you're really getting is the imbue and the passive effects on the runearm itself - which arguably might still be better than any orb or buckler currently in game, but then you're also locked into /2 Arti.

The two best rune arms currently in the game, Archaic Device and Corruption of Nature, are actually will and fort saves, respectively. But you're right, only an int based build will get the most value from swf with a rune arm.

Compared with only the rune arm imbues, bucklers offer the higher dps boost as long as you include shield mastery, improved shield mastery, and legendary shield mastery (tier 2 in legendary dreadnaught), possibly also shield bash depending on how high your str is. Together these give you 15% doublestrike and 20 PRR as well as 7% dodge if you have the skirmisher swashbuckling style enhancement, and that doesn't include the average damage from shield bash if you have it. No rune arm imbues will come close to this amount of damage, and certainly none will offer that kind of defensive benefit. On a mostly artificer build, however, the rune arm shot will do a considerable amount of damage, but again, that benefit is limited to those kinds of builds only.

Also, any build that does utilize a rune arm is going to want to invest into the rune arm enhancements in battle engineer. The tier 5 ability that allows you to run at full movement speed with a charged rune arm is invaluable for any build that uses a rune arm often, but that of course locks out other tier 5s. So this is another reason why SWF with a rune arm will be for builds that are mostly artificer.

For any caster heavy build that uses SWF (excluding melee artificers), I suspect that an orb will offer more benefit than a rune arm. Gearing a melee/caster hybrid is difficult enough without giving up such a valuable slot as the offhand. Rune arms do not come with red/orange/purple slots sadly.

As far as a rogue that uses SWF, they will be much better off with TWF. The amount of damage that they do from sneak attacks with the offhand will not compare to the increased attack speed from SWF. A SWF rogue will be severely gimping itself by going that route.

[CThruTheEgo]

the rune arm damange add to weapon doesn't scale, that's static.
The idea of the rune arm is that it powers up your single weapon, not that you are shooting it.

That is correct. It is the shot damage that scales with level. And the shot damage on a level 20 artificer is huge. The weapon imbue is nothing in comparison and the other options for a SWF/swashbuckler are far better for any non-heavy artificer build.

If you go with rune arm for the sole purpose of using the imbue, you are losing out on a great deal of potential, whether from utilizing the shot by going with more arti levels, or from utilizing the benefits of buckler with appropriate feats, or from an orb on a casting heavy build.

[EllisDee37]

Thanks much guys, that explains the runearm situation well. So apart from a hybrid juggernaut, runearms aren't the way to optimize a SWF melee.

The buckler benefits sound highly appealing, but that now locks us into a minimum of 7 required melee feats, right?

Precision
Improved Critical
SWF, ISWF, GSWF
Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery

Is this the starting, no-brainer framework? (And more and more I'm starting to think we'll want a minimum of 4 fighter levels for 3 extra feats.)

[EllisDee37]

What about 10/8/2 bard/fighter/rogue? Five extra feats, three level 3 spells, evasion and full trapping.

EDIT: I don't know anything about druids; would druid bring anything to the table?

[CThruTheEgo]

Thanks much guys, that explains the runearm situation well. So apart from a hybrid juggernaut, runearms aren't the way to optimize a SWF melee.

The juggernaut was actually a THF and didn't use a rune arm at all. It's power came primarily from blitzing and leveraged artificer/WF for the easy button self healing.

SWF artis with rune arm in the offhand will be a different beast entirely.

The buckler benefits sound highly appealing, but that now locks us into a minimum of 7 required melee feats, right?

Precision
Improved Critical
SWF, ISWF, GSWF
Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery

Is this the starting, no-brainer framework? (And more and more I'm starting to think we'll want a minimum of 4 fighter levels for 3 extra feats.)

If melee dps is a primary goal, then yes, that is the no-brainer framework for a bard based SWF. If not going to tier 5 in bard, you'd swap precision for power attack.

[EllisDee37]

The juggernaut was actually a THF and didn't use a rune arm at all. It's power came primarily from blitzing and leveraged artificer/WF for the easy button self healing.

That's what I meant by "hybrid." Possibly not the greatest word choice.