In Defense of (unarmed) Monks

[MrWindupBird]

** This is not going to be short **

So. Let's talk about monks, and why the forums -or at least some very outspoken members- hate them. I'm going to make the case that the new nerf to QP comes out of a misunderstanding of what endgame looks like, and the basic features of the class.

There's a witch-hunt going on around monks. Some of the hate is justified, some is not, and I'm going to try to lay that all out in terms of game mechanics.

There is a perception that monks are both overpowered, and bad for the balance of the game. I think the conversation has gotten very muddled, and a big part of this is because of confusion over what constitutes a monk. According to many people, if it has a yellow bar, it is a monk. Here are some common builds: stick-acrobats (13 rogue/6monk/1somethin), 20 unarmed monks, centered kenseis (12fighter/6monk/2something), various archers (12monk/6ranger/2something or 11ranger/6monk/x), 16/2/2 shiradi wizards, 17druid/2wizard/1monk. I have seen all of these snidely dismissed on the forums as being examples of monk-overpoweredness. Obviously, something about this doesn't add up: these are all incredibly different builds which share almost nothing offensively. Yet, forum-folk persist in calling all of these characters monks. We don't make this judgement about other classes: a 18/2 wizard rogue is not called a rogue, a 18barb/2fighter isn't a fighter. So what's going on here?

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Let's talk about the offense side of things first. For years monks were considered to be subpar-to-bad damage, now this impression has shifted. I argue that this is entirely due to the new viability of weaponized monks. Monks offense has traditionall been unarmed damage, and that has a few unique characteristics:
1. It is fast.
2. It is fairly high base damage (for those with >12 monk levels, dance of flowers, Improved Martial arts).
3. It has by far the worst critical profile in the game.

Points 1 and 2 have reasonably well balanced Point 3 in DDO's history. It's easy to overlook point 3, so let's detour quickly to show how important that is. Consider a unarmed monk in earth stance 4, with the overwhelming crit line, in Legendary Dreadnought (this is the best critical profile possible for a monk). Consider also a balizarde kensei (we won't give them monk levels for earth stance, but they do of course have Overwhelming Crit).
unarmed monk criticals: 19-20 x 5
Balizarde kensei(no earth stance): 13-18 x3, 19-20 x5.

So, assuming that each player hits on a 2 and confirms all their crits (this also biases the analysis in the favor of the unarmed monk), we get:
expected unarmed damage over 20 rolls: 27 x (physical damage) + 10 x Seeker = (17 x 1 + 2 x 5)
expected balizarde damage over 20 rolls: 40 x (physical damage) + 28 x Seeker = (12 x 1 + 6*3 + 2 x 5)

So, for a given amount of base non-crit physical damage X, the TWF kensei ends up with 50% more physical damage overall due to crits alone. This ignores the far greater additional benefit of seeker to that player, and this is as generous an analysis to the unarmed player as possible.

Critical profile is incredibly important. For the TWF kensei above, the damage on 0% fort vs 100% fort is more than doubled, again before including the effects of seeker. It used to be the case that unarmed's comparative disadvantage in critical profile was less important: on the one side all bosses had 50% or more fort, and on the other trash was stunnable. The latter remains true, but the former not so much: there are a multitude of ways to debuff or bypass fortification now.

Further, the monk enhancement trees give exactly 2 enhancements that boost unarmed damage: Empty Fist Mastery (T5, Shintao) boosts base damage from d6 to d8, and sneak attack enhancements are available in Ninja Spy. And let's not forget that two of the three real melee damage destinies (Fury of the Wild and Legendary Dreadnought) have crucial abilities which do not function with unarmed attacks (Momentum swing, Lay Waste, Pulverizer, Adrenaline are all useless with unarmed).

What point am I making with this? In order to compensate for lackluster crit profile of unarmed and poor damage-boosting enhancements, base-damage increases and to a much smaller degree bonuses from stances (Earth gives +1 crit multiplier on 19-20) are necessary. Here's the rub: due to recent changes allowing Kensei to remain centered with their weapons of choice, these offsetting abilities are completely accessible to characters wielding anything at all. Hence, Balizarde and ESOS users in Earth stance and twisting Dance of Flowers, truly benefiting from the best of both worlds. By appropriating the perks that are necessary to keep unarmed damage competitive, centered kensei monks can stand in both spaces at once.

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That wraps up the offense side of things. Defense is a bit trickier, and has to do with two facts:
1. PRR has dramatically diminishing returns above 60 or so
2. Monk is very front-loaded defensively

Remember when MOTU came out? Very few melee were splashing monk for defense at that point, and there's a reason. It wasn't easy to hit 60+ PRR numbers then on a non-shield build, so the foregone PRR from armor was potentially devastating. Further, you couldn't be centered while wielding rapiers/greatswords/whatever, so shadow fade wasn't an option. Changes since then have made 8 fighter/6monk the backbone for very effective defensel: +6% dodge and shadowfade, along with 27 PRR from earth stance, along with other easy sources of PRR to reach at least 50. There isn't really any defensive opportunity cost anymore for adding monk to your build: high-enough PRR is still achievable, and there are now ways to remain centered/shadowfaded with any weapon.

To summarize so far: weaponized monks benefit a lot from recent changes, and have access to all the goodies that made unarmed monks viable despite their weaknesses/bugginess, but suffer none of the tradeoffs.

So if it's weaponized monks that are a balance problem, why did unarmed monks get nerfed instead?

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On live, it's possible to get a higher Quivering Palm DC than is possible for any of the other instakill abilities: necromancy, assassination, implosion. However, there's a lot of misinformation as to what levels are actually achievable: the usual forum inflation would have you believe that DC 80 quivering palm is completely standard. This is not quite right, to say the least. It takes all the necessary past lives, a very specific splash and a complete focus on wisdom and gearing for QP to even hit 70 DC, which is detrimental to both survivability and damage. Personally, my wisdom-focused monk (BF, 16/2fighter/2paladin) runs around with mid 60s, in EE Shadowsights and with all relevant pastlives and gear other than completionist. So, about the same as a fully-geared and focussed PM. The difference of course is that the PM can kill from distance. The power of mobility in this game is immense- almost all damage is avoidable with distance and a little strafing. In terms of character power, there is nothing in DDO that can approximate the ability to deal damage at a distance.

Take a look at the achievements section. Browse through all the pages since Shadowfell was released, see how many of those characters had quivering palm on their hotbar. I counted one.

Is it too easy to achieve a workable QP DC on live? A bit, yes. The ceiling is higher than that of comparable abilities, although to reach that ceiling requires greater sacrifices of survivability and versatility/damage than doing so with either assassinate or necromancy. In its state on Lammania, quivering palm is useless at high-levels. Incidentally, so is every monk ability not named Stunning Fist or Kukan-Do: Tomb of Jade, Jade Strike, Dismissing Strike, Flash-bang are all utterly without purpose outside of heroic levels.


To those who would accuse me of favoritism: **** right, my monk is my favorite toon to play. It's not my most powerful: I've soloed just about everything on each of my monk, AA, and Shiradi wizard, and the wizard and AA are both more versatile, powerful, and survivable. I'm sad to see that rabble-rousing has resulted in a reactionary change, rather than thoughtful adjustments. I don't know if the ship has already sailed, but in the interests of balance I'd suggest rethinking the centering on non-monk weapons, the front-loading of monk defensive benefits, and the purchase-ability of higher tier stances. QP does need adjustment, but this is pretty odious, and seems to miss the forest for the trees.

If you read this far, thanks! It's just a game, but it's a game I enjoy and these are my thoughts on how things fit together.

[Potatofasf]

I make your words... my words! Well said!
Witch Hunt against Monks!

[MrWindupBird]

Well, there are some troublesome aspects about the class, but I think that attempts to rebalance this need to actually target those aspects. Its not that monks = overpowered and bad, it's that weaponized monks = all the benefits of monk weirdness and none of the drawbacks, and that ranged toons are incredibly powerful regardless, 12monk just so happens to be a very slightly better platform than anything else. Contrary to what the forums would tell you, there isn't something inherently flawed and unbalanced about the class itself: it's just how it synergizes with A. Kensei and B. archery.

Again, this makes every monk-y ability other than stunning fist useless again at high levels (the stacking +4 save is not a good mechanic, and DC will literally drop by more than 35 points. That's 9 uses of QP, or one minute, to get back to where it was).

[EllisDee37]

Monks were overpowered in two ways:

1) Quivering Palm on pure monks who built for it could achieve significantly higher insta-kill DCs than insta-kill casters, which was clearly unbalanced.

2) A six level monk splash is incredibly overpowered for a variety of builds. That's what all your splash examples have in common: the monk splash. Evasion + earth stance is arguably overpowered even if you receive no other benefit, and then you toss in being centered with eSoS or getting 10k stars and it becomes double-plus overpowered to a ridiculous degree.

[Henky]

Well said, really, well said.

As i said in other post, QP DC should be 10 + monk level + wisdom mod, with a 68 ubermaxed wisdom you have 29+20+10, 59 DC, 5 more if GMoF increased monk levels, and if the mob save the roll, the QP should be doing extra damage.

But i really don't care, there is no end game for me, is boooring staying at 28, and epic tr is even more boring, so im doing heroic TRs till my eyes bleed.

[thakorian]

Monks were overpowered in two ways:

1) Quivering Palm on pure monks who built for it could achieve significantly higher insta-kill DCs than insta-kill casters, which was clearly unbalanced.

2) A six level monk splash is incredibly overpowered for a variety of builds. That's what all your splash examples have in common: the monk splash. Evasion + earth stance is arguably overpowered even if you receive no other benefit, and then you toss in being centered with eSoS or getting 10k stars and it becomes double-plus overpowered to a ridiculous degree.

How does a 6 lvl monk splash make a toon a monk?

Also your first point is moot, it's just one ability versus the multitude of instakilling spells and also CC spells. Just staring at the DC is meaningless. Do go try a wis monk out, let me know how well you fare in EE horns in ocean stance with your 80ish DCs without a constant backing of a healer.

I find it odd that people are so enamored to make the comparison between a PM and a QP monk just for the sake of DCs. It's... a... single... number. I mean, look at enchantment DCs on a PM! It's infinitely more than what a QP monk gets! Nurf!

[thakorian]

Well said, really, well said.

As i said in other post, QP DC should be 10 + monk level + wisdom mod, with a 68 ubermaxed wisdom you have 29+20+10, 59 DC, 5 more if GMoF increased monk levels, and if the mob save the roll, the QP should be doing extra damage.

But i really don't care, there is no end game for me, is boooring staying at 28, and epic tr is even more boring, so im doing heroic TRs till my eyes bleed.

If you don't stay at end game, how well versed are you to tell anyone how things should be in end game? 68 wis monk? Gosh, prolly should have turned in more silver coins for abishai cookies so I could eat a set everytime I go quest if I want even a smidgeon of survivability with that wis!

[Henky]

If you don't stay at end game, how well versed are you to tell anyone how things should be in end game? 68 wis monk? Gosh, prolly should have turned in more silver coins for abishai cookies so I could eat a set everytime I go quest if I want even a smidgeon of survivability with that wis!

68 is what forumites claim to be "maximum standard". I always have 2-3 toons at level 28 and HTRs 1 or 2, so yes, i know how things CAN be at endgame. That being said, my monk was sitting with 54 wisdom on earth stance, and had no problem stunning, didn't really try QP, since the change i haven't played with her too much, just enough to level her to 28 and get some new equipment.

I said should be because I think that the formula I gave is the most balanced, not OP, not useless. It's just my humble opinion.

[Kalevor]

[MrWindupBird]

Monks were overpowered in two ways:

1) Quivering Palm on pure monks who built for it could achieve significantly higher insta-kill DCs than insta-kill casters, which was clearly unbalanced.

2) A six level monk splash is incredibly overpowered for a variety of builds. That's what all your splash examples have in common: the monk splash. Evasion + earth stance is arguably overpowered even if you receive no other benefit, and then you toss in being centered with eSoS or getting 10k stars and it becomes double-plus overpowered to a ridiculous degree.

These are exactly the two points I'm trying to address.

For Point 1: yes, the ceiling of QP DCs is quite high. However: unlike either an assassin or a PM, building to maximize that DC has a very high opportunity cost in terms of other things that a monk can do. So, a slightly higher DC is appropriate, particularly considering the fact that it requires being in melee range. Remember, range = safety (assassinate probably needs a small buff incidentally). To reiterate, QP needs to be toned down slightly (the 80 DC figure always tossed around is not reflective of reality). That doesn't excuse making it useless again.

For Point 2: Ask yourself why a 6 monk splash is popular now, while it wasn't before U19. Here I'm not talking about AAs: the fact that 10k stars exists requires all AAs to take 6 monk regardless of other considerations, which is kinda silly I agree. As far as melee goes, there are two reasons:
1. Higher tier stances (ie Earth 3) are now purchasable.
2. It's now possible to use not-awful weapons and remain centered. A 6 monk splash used to require either shortswords or staff. That was the tradeoff: low-damage, low-critical-profile weapons in exchange for shadowfade and some feats. It was a significant offensive tradeoff, and one that few people made. Now, you no longer have to sacrifice offense at all. This is enormous. See the calculations in the first post.

[Fafnir]

I agree with the OP.

The nerf is over the top, particularly given the weak crit profile of handwraps. There should be more effort to address monk splashes rather than 15+ level monks.

[Raoull]

+1
well thought out and written.

I can totally see a nerf on QP... but this is a bit nuts. For one, they are effectively cutting it rather than nerfing it, and more importantly.... the power of the monk splash is the source of the yellow bar explosion, not monks themselves.

If they want to nerf it (preferably after increasing the number of monk lvls for shadow fade, the free dodge, etc... disallowing stances as feats... and so forth), leave it usable at least. The simplest way to do that is leave the DC as is and up Ki costs or cooldown. If DC must be nerfed... any more than ~10DC nerf will risk killing it. They decided to go with a ~26 DC nerf (on my monk anyway). The lovely +4DC per fail bone means I only need to wiff 7 times for each success.....

[toaftoaf]

how do you know the monk is a witch?

he turned me into a newt...i got beter

[thakorian]

didn't really try QP

And this is what it boils down to when people just stare at the numbers. Stunning fist isn't really gonna give you much perspective to be honest.

I'm just wondering why people call out for these nerfs if they never even tried it out. Check how the gear works out, go romp around a bit in easy EE content like high roads first when a bit undergeared. I have a dc monk but I rather play my bf rankcher (12rgr/6mnk/2pal so not really monkcher, nerf rangers, anyone?) in EE because it is better on every aspect due to game dynamics, and I just find it a bit odd that an EE semi-viable MELEE is first on their supernerf-list, when achievements are almost solely posted by ranged toons. Go figure why the lack of calling for nerfs for ranged toons.

I usually call people forumites when they totally start ignoring game mechanics and dynamics like to-hit scores, PRR, cooldowns etc. in their theoretical numbergames. Sure you can hit a 68 wis, but that puts you in charge of a really awkward glass cannon who has absolutely no red-name dps.

Also it's magical how people apply the best monk chance for every situation, and then being able to also pull off QPs without any restraints imposed target acquisition, appraisal, debuffing, ki-regenning and eventually self-healing. Earth PRR for defence while having fire ki regen and ocean wis bonuses to DCs, and you fly off with a dashing abundant step to your next target of opportunity that is always in your reach to land in that 90+ to-hit always hitting 80+dc QP, that your prepped by debuffing with shaken and improved sundering (they always land too), and repeat until mobs are dead, all the while the wizard the monk is being compared to apparently spends his time trying to land a 55dc fod on a single target and failing repeatedly.

You know, monks should really get red capes and special underwear while QP is still what it is.

[ViolentEnd]

I usually call people forumites when they totally start ignoring game mechanics and dynamics like to-hit scores, PRR, cooldowns etc. in their theoretical numbergames. Sure you can hit a 68 wis, but that puts you in charge of a really awkward glass cannon who has absolutely no red-name dps.

Also it's magical how people apply the best monk chance for every situation, and then being able to also pull off QPs without any restraints imposed target acquisition, appraisal, debuffing, ki-regenning and eventually self-healing. Earth PRR for defence while having fire ki regen and ocean wis bonuses to DCs, and you fly off with a dashing abundant step to your next target of opportunity that is always in your reach to land in that 90+ to-hit always hitting 80+dc QP, that your prepped by debuffing with shaken and improved sundering (they always land too), and repeat until mobs are dead, all the while the wizard the monk is being compared to apparently spends his time trying to land a 55dc fod on a single target and failing repeatedly.

You know, monks should really get red capes and special underwear while QP is still what it is.

Good post

[Havok.cry]

Personally I think the most powerful and most abused monk abilities are 10k stars and Kensi centered weapons. Those are what need rebalancing. Anything that can cut through the fat, boring sacks of HP turbine insists on calling EE is something I want to stick around, QP included.

[LavidDynch]

And this is what it boils down to when people just stare at the numbers. Stunning fist isn't really gonna give you much perspective to be honest.

I'm just wondering why people call out for these nerfs if they never even tried it out. Check how the gear works out, go romp around a bit in easy EE content like high roads first when a bit undergeared. I have a dc monk but I rather play my bf rankcher (12rgr/6mnk/2pal so not really monkcher, nerf rangers, anyone?) in EE because it is better on every aspect due to game dynamics, and I just find it a bit odd that an EE semi-viable MELEE is first on their supernerf-list, when achievements are almost solely posted by ranged toons. Go figure why the lack of calling for nerfs for ranged toons.

I usually call people forumites when they totally start ignoring game mechanics and dynamics like to-hit scores, PRR, cooldowns etc. in their theoretical numbergames. Sure you can hit a 68 wis, but that puts you in charge of a really awkward glass cannon who has absolutely no red-name dps.

Also it's magical how people apply the best monk chance for every situation, and then being able to also pull off QPs without any restraints imposed target acquisition, appraisal, debuffing, ki-regenning and eventually self-healing. Earth PRR for defence while having fire ki regen and ocean wis bonuses to DCs, and you fly off with a dashing abundant step to your next target of opportunity that is always in your reach to land in that 90+ to-hit always hitting 80+dc QP, that your prepped by debuffing with shaken and improved sundering (they always land too), and repeat until mobs are dead, all the while the wizard the monk is being compared to apparently spends his time trying to land a 55dc fod on a single target and failing repeatedly.

You know, monks should really get red capes and special underwear while QP is still what it is.

Well said. Monks in the current state are fun, not OP. Its a bit dangerous to play, even when you play it right.

[DrawingGuy]

Definitely +1 to the OP an Thakorian. Both well said of how people think QP is over powered. Try playing a maxed out Quivering Punch Monk - enjoy your sub 100 hits and sub 300 crits... or if you fit in DPS over survivability, might eek 100ish hits with 400-500 crits. Then hop on a Centered Kensei and watch as you just cleave/lay waste/momentum a dozen mobs at once doing 10x the damage to each one. Who needs Quivering Palm when you can 2-3 shot the trash the unarmed monk is QPing and then proceed to use that damage to take down bosses ten times quicker? The whole key is U19 gave ALL of the advantages of monks with NONE of the disadvantages. QP being relatively easy to make effective should not have even been on the radar compared the the power of a dozen other builds.

[Qhualor]

Personally I think the most powerful and most abused monk abilities are 10k stars and Kensi centered weapons. Those are what need rebalancing.

yep. I think a lot of people were caught off guard with the announcement to nerfing QP monks. I don't have extensive knowledge of them, but there are a lot more things in the game right now that are OP and in need of rebalancing than this.

[EllisDee37]

unlike either an assassin or a PM, building to maximize that DC has a very high opportunity cost in terms of other things that a monk can do.

This is a misconception. A min/max instakill caster has the opportunity cost of every other spell school DC suffering. (You can only twist in +3 DC on one school, the AM school mastery is only for one school, you have to choose which schools you spend limited feats on, etc...)

So, a slightly higher DC [for monks] is appropriate

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. A melee should have higher insta-kill DC than a min/maxed DC caster? Never.