Character Planner - New Interface Ideas

[Stoner81]

I assume you guys and girls have added or will be adding the new Swashbuckler tree for the initial release of the v5.xx of the planner?

Stoner81.

[Ron]

I assume you guys and girls have added or will be adding the new Swashbuckler tree for the initial release of the v5.xx of the planner?

Stoner81.

Yes, we will. But that's the beauty of our data input systems. Even if we forget, you guys will have the ability to create the tree yourself, graphics and all. So when Turbine updates the game with new trees, you don't have to wait for us to put them in, you can do it. Same with spells, feats, equipment, etc. Nothing we are doing is going to be proprietary. We are using the exact same systems to input all the game data that will be available for you guys to use as well, should you want to do it.

Of course, we will keep the database up to date as we make releases (and there will be some issues with our database merging with your database if you've changed yours locally). But that's all stuff we will talk about when we get close to being done.

[Stoner81]

Good to know I highly doubt I will be messing with it like that I would rather just download it directly from you guys when you release new versions and send you bug reports about stuff if it's wrong or whatever

Stoner81.

[Ron]

On Skinning

Hey guys. I thought I might describe this new system to you. I don't have any screenshots to show you at the moment (well, I could, but they pretty much look like the screenshots you've already seen). But I think it's worth talking about.

Skinning turned into quite a complex system, as we wanted to give you guys a whole lot of flexibility with it, to do whatever you wanted with the various controls. There was a lot of back and forth, with many ideas tossed in and thrown out, and perhaps more than a little bit of arguing about it But in the end I think we've come up with a nice system for you guys to play with.

At first we were thinking we'd give you guys an .ini file type setup. But, given we have this awesome database thing going, that seemed overly limiting. You'd only be able to have one skin at a time, and editing an .ini file would be both a pain and error prone (we learned our lesson with the text files from the prior planner versions!).

So instead, we are setting up a database table for you guys. This will allow you to have multiple skins at your fingertips. You will be able to save as many as you like, and load any one of them up on command. We will also be providing an import/export function to drop a skin into a text file that you can pass on to your guildies.

You will edit skins inside a screen (accessible through the Tools menu), called, appropriately enough, The Skin Editor Screen. I will describe what happens on this screen as I go through the system.

Okay, so how does it work?

We've set up three layers to the skin, Factory Settings, General Settings, and Override Settings:

Factory Settings: This is the first layer that is loaded, and it is hardcoded right into the code. You (as the user) cannot change these settings, they are set to what we (the developers) are making the default layout. You can revert back to these settings at any time.

General Settings: This will be the second layer loaded. There is a 1:1 relationship between general settings and factory settings (they even share the same names). General settings overwrite the factory settings. If no general setting is set up for a given setting, the factory setting is used instead (in other words, if you don't put something in the box for this general setting on the Skin Editor Screen, it will fall back to the Factory Setting). This is the first layer that you guys can change on the Skin Editor Screen. So what does it do? General settings will have an effect on multiple controls. For example, we have a StandardFont which is the typical font used throughout the program for various label controls on the screen. In Factory Settings, this is a white font set to Times New Roman at a size of 9.25 (subject to change ). But suppose you don't like that font? Maybe the color is no good for you, or you need it to be a bigger size because your eyesight is failing (like mine, heh). Then you go into General Settings and change it. This will change EVERY CONTROL in the program that uses this setting. We have other general settings like ReadOnlyFont and ScreenBackgroundColor and PanelBackgroundColor and so on. You would modify a General Setting if you want to change the overall look of the program.

Override Settings: Suppose you have your skin all set up how you like it through the use of Factory and General Settings. But you want one particular panel's background color to be different than all the others (maybe this panel is super important to you). You can't change it in General Settings, because that would change ALL the panel's background color. This is where Override comes in. On the override side of the editor, you can select a specific screen or panel, and just change items on THAT screen. For example, on the main screen is the Abilities Panel. On this panel, you have some column labels, a few columns, some row labels (that consist of two different fonts), a totals column, and some read only labels (the "+" and "=" stuff in between the numbers). Each one of those is a group, and each group has its own override setting. If you want the Totals column font a bit bigger or a different color, here is where you can change it. I should mention, we are NOT giving you a 1:1 correspondence of controls to overrides. We are grouping them into logical groups. You really don't want override control over each individual screen element. There are 100s of them An override setting would, of course, override a general setting for that specific group (but not for all groups that use that general setting). I should also note here that this is the area you would come to if you want to move something or resize it (e.g. a panel will have a location and a size setting. Obviously this cannot be a General setting, so this is where you would find that).

Whew, okay, I know it's kind of technical. It will probably make more sense when you see it in action. So what is the schedule?

Factory settings we are coding now (pre-Alpha). In fact, it's pretty much done, other than the actual data input. We have set up what is really all the difficult stuff for the remaining General/Override systems (dictionary lookups, links between Override names and General/Factory names, and all that), but we are not putting them into place right now.

General Settings and skin saving we will implement during Alpha or late pre-Alpha.

Override Settings we will implement during Beta (or actually probably late Alpha, since Beta really should be limited to bug killing).

Other things we have been up to:

Dragon has been working hard on the Enhancement data input screen. This one is quite a bit more complex than any of our other screens, but it's coming along quite nicely. We have a new "requirements" panel that is very nice. Anyway, give us a bit more time, I'm sure we will have some screenshots to show off on that front soon.

We've been talking recently about stances as well. It's still early stages yet, but I think we are going to be able to give you stance icons, and you will be able to turn them on and see how it affects your stats.

So yeah, there ya go, your update for the day!

[Cordovan]

On Skinning

Hey guys. I thought I might describe this new system to you. I don't have any screenshots to show you at the moment (well, I could, but they pretty much look like the screenshots you've already seen). But I think it's worth talking about.

Skinning turned into quite a complex system, as we wanted to give you guys a whole lot of flexibility with it, to do whatever you wanted with the various controls. There was a lot of back and forth, with many ideas tossed in and thrown out, and perhaps more than a little bit of arguing about it But in the end I think we've come up with a nice system for you guys to play with.

At first we were thinking we'd give you guys an .ini file type setup. But, given we have this awesome database thing going, that seemed overly limiting. You'd only be able to have one skin at a time, and editing an .ini file would be both a pain and error prone (we learned our lesson with the text files from the prior planner versions!).

So instead, we are setting up a database table for you guys. This will allow you to have multiple skins at your fingertips. You will be able to save as many as you like, and load any one of them up on command. We will also be providing an import/export function to drop a skin into a text file that you can pass on to your guildies.

You will edit skins inside a screen (accessible through the Tools menu), called, appropriately enough, The Skin Editor Screen. I will describe what happens on this screen as I go through the system.

Okay, so how does it work?

We've set up three layers to the skin, Factory Settings, General Settings, and Override Settings:

Factory Settings: This is the first layer that is loaded, and it is hardcoded right into the code. You (as the user) cannot change these settings, they are set to what we (the developers) are making the default layout. You can revert back to these settings at any time.

General Settings: This will be the second layer loaded. There is a 1:1 relationship between general settings and factory settings (they even share the same names). General settings overwrite the factory settings. If no general setting is set up for a given setting, the factory setting is used instead (in other words, if you don't put something in the box for this general setting on the Skin Editor Screen, it will fall back to the Factory Setting). This is the first layer that you guys can change on the Skin Editor Screen. So what does it do? General settings will have an effect on multiple controls. For example, we have a StandardFont which is the typical font used throughout the program for various label controls on the screen. In Factory Settings, this is a white font set to Times New Roman at a size of 9.25 (subject to change ). But suppose you don't like that font? Maybe the color is no good for you, or you need it to be a bigger size because your eyesight is failing (like mine, heh). Then you go into General Settings and change it. This will change EVERY CONTROL in the program that uses this setting. We have other general settings like ReadOnlyFont and ScreenBackgroundColor and PanelBackgroundColor and so on. You would modify a General Setting if you want to change the overall look of the program.

Override Settings: Suppose you have your skin all set up how you like it through the use of Factory and General Settings. But you want one particular panel's background color to be different than all the others (maybe this panel is super important to you). You can't change it in General Settings, because that would change ALL the panel's background color. This is where Override comes in. On the override side of the editor, you can select a specific screen or panel, and just change items on THAT screen. For example, on the main screen is the Abilities Panel. On this panel, you have some column labels, a few columns, some row labels (that consist of two different fonts), a totals column, and some read only labels (the "+" and "=" stuff in between the numbers). Each one of those is a group, and each group has its own override setting. If you want the Totals column font a bit bigger or a different color, here is where you can change it. I should mention, we are NOT giving you a 1:1 correspondence of controls to overrides. We are grouping them into logical groups. You really don't want override control over each individual screen element. There are 100s of them An override setting would, of course, override a general setting for that specific group (but not for all groups that use that general setting). I should also note here that this is the area you would come to if you want to move something or resize it (e.g. a panel will have a location and a size setting. Obviously this cannot be a General setting, so this is where you would find that).

Whew, okay, I know it's kind of technical. It will probably make more sense when you see it in action. So what is the schedule?

Factory settings we are coding now (pre-Alpha). In fact, it's pretty much done, other than the actual data input. We have set up what is really all the difficult stuff for the remaining General/Override systems (dictionary lookups, links between Override names and General/Factory names, and all that), but we are not putting them into place right now.

General Settings and skin saving we will implement during Alpha or late pre-Alpha.

Override Settings we will implement during Beta (or actually probably late Alpha, since Beta really should be limited to bug killing).

Other things we have been up to:

Dragon has been working hard on the Enhancement data input screen. This one is quite a bit more complex than any of our other screens, but it's coming along quite nicely. We have a new "requirements" panel that is very nice. Anyway, give us a bit more time, I'm sure we will have some screenshots to show off on that front soon.

We've been talking recently about stances as well. It's still early stages yet, but I think we are going to be able to give you stance icons, and you will be able to turn them on and see how it affects your stats.

So yeah, there ya go, your update for the day!

Impressive! Can't wait for the update.

[EllisDee37]

The entire skin thing sounds like unadulterated win, but I particularly like this bit:

We will also be providing an import/export function to drop a skin into a text file that you can pass on to your guildies.

Woohoo!

My vision of exporting a skin to the DDO forums (likely inside code tags) that others can copy and paste looks to be alive and well.

[droid327]

Hey, sorry if this isn't the right place, but here's something I've always thought when using the Planner...

Have you ever looked at a "Straight to 20" and/or "Straight to 28/30" mode for building a character? Ie, rather than build it level by level like you currently do, you can go through and assign all the class levels at once, then all the stat points all at once, then all the skill points, then all the feats, then Enhancements, then EDs.

Or is that something that could be achieved with the new skinning? It wouldn't be any different mechanically, you'd still be assigning the same data in the same places....it just would give you, eg., all your Feats editable on one page.

[Ron]

Hey, sorry if this isn't the right place, but here's something I've always thought when using the Planner...

Have you ever looked at a "Straight to 20" and/or "Straight to 28/30" mode for building a character? Ie, rather than build it level by level like you currently do, you can go through and assign all the class levels at once, then all the stat points all at once, then all the skill points, then all the feats, then Enhancements, then EDs.

Or is that something that could be achieved with the new skinning? It wouldn't be any different mechanically, you'd still be assigning the same data in the same places....it just would give you, eg., all your Feats editable on one page.

That actually has absolutely nothing to do with skinning Mechanically, it is actually a totally different system.

Fortunately for you, yes, that is in fact exactly how we are designing the new planner, system based Each panel on the main screen is one system (Abilities, Feats, Enhancements, spells, etc). You hit the edit button on that panel to assign those values for that system. So in fact, you will be setting all your abilities from 1-30 all in one spot, then going over and setting your feats from 1-30, and so forth.

[Ron]

Okay, I'm being asked, so I will try to answer, as best I can.

We've been working on this for what? Six months now (jeez, has it really been that long??). So when will we be able to get you guys something you can play with?

This is always a very dangerous question to answer. If I was super smart, I'd say "as soon as we can" and leave it at that But I'm just not that bright.

Dragon and I were talking about this not too long ago. I think we'd like to run an alpha test session when we have abilities and feats working, just to see what you guys can break for us (right Dragon?). It would also allow you to play with the data input screens (for whatever that's worth). I like getting feedback as early as possible in a project, so that if we need to change directions somewhere, we can do so without having to rewrite reams of code.

The big barrier to that, besides just getting those couple of panels working (and I don't think those are all that far off from being functional actually) is that we have to write an installer. There is a component we have to install to allow for database functions to work. We COULD just tell you, "Go to this page and install this" and maybe that's what we will end up doing at first. But since at some point we need to create an installer for the planner, it's probably worth doing sooner rather than later.

So what is the answer? I think we are closer to a alpha test than the amount of time since we started. So less than six months But actually, I would think less than that. I don't think we are far from the point where all this data we've collected and input can be hooked into actual functions (in a few places it already is) and have it start working. That is actually, believe it or not, the easy part. Collecting the data, and putting it into data structures for maximum usability, that's the hard stuff.

Beyond that? Hell, I have no idea. We have grand plans for the planner. It is already a lot more sophisticated than the prior versions in a lot of ways. We have a lot more data than we had before, and the ability to use that data in a lot more ways. There is, to be sure, a lot of work ahead of us. So I can't really tell you we will be in Beta in six months. We may not be. It may take another year (ugg, I hope not). But I do think we want to make a few Alpha test releases even before we hit Beta, so it's not like you guys will be out of the loop for that long.

So that's the best I can give you. Soon(tm). I think...

[Chaimberland]

Ron, you and your team are doing a superb job! I can't wait for this to come out. Many many many thank you's in advance!

[Bernaise]

Ron, you and your team are doing a superb job! I can't wait for this to come out. Many many many thank you's in advance!

Absolutely agree, without the planner leveling in DDO would be even more painstaking than it is now.

One request; when you get around to testing, could you please test functionality with multiple monitors? In the current version, if I move the planner to a different monitor, the Enhancement window still pops up on the original screen location which is sometimes inconvenient as the enhancement window cannot be moved.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Absolutely agree, without the planner leveling in DDO would be even more painstaking than it is now.

One request; when you get around to testing, could you please test functionality with multiple monitors? In the current version, if I move the planner to a different monitor, the Enhancement window still pops up on the original screen location which is sometimes inconvenient as the enhancement window cannot be moved.

Oh man!!! ^^ This! So much this!!! I have 2 monitors & a TV hooked up as well with 2 monitors brand new monitors still in their packaging under my bed from some other sales in the past years.
(no room from them in my room currently).

Just something to consider Ron & planner team! It is greatly appreciated! Thanks so much! Keep up the great work! :P! ! !

[Ron]

Oh man!!! ^^ This! So much this!!! I have 2 monitors & a TV hooked up as well with 2 monitors brand new monitors still in their packaging under my bed from some other sales in the past years.
(no room from them in my room currently).

Just something to consider Ron & planner team! It is greatly appreciated! Thanks so much! Keep up the great work! :P! ! !

All windows in the new version are movable (as far as I know).

In addition, as kind of a side effect of the skinning system, you will be able to specify the default opening location of all child windows. This should apply to secondary monitors as well, but I will double check on that. So it should be possible to skin the program in such as way as the main screen stays on a primary monitor, while secondary edit screens appear on a second monitor, stuff like that. But as all that is Override settings I won't be able to actually test all this out until we get close to Beta.

[AtomicMew]

A little late to the suggestion thread, but since I've been using this more in combination with the leveler program, I thought I would give my thoughts. One of the new paradigms for web-design is less clicking and more scrolling. So, I think it would be nice if people could visualize the entire build (as much as possible) on one large, scroll-able screen. Something like:



In my imagination, clicking on, for example, one of the feat boxes, would bring up a mini feat selection dialogue box for that particular level. Same with class and skill point boxes. The information chosen from the dialogue would then be condensed into the respective box.

[AtomicMew]

double post

[Spekdah_NZ]

First of i'll admit to not reading all posts so excuse me if i repeat anything.

Be nice to start off by choosing
* build points, tombs available, and if you want to obey the iconic first level class. Be nice if the tombs adjusted automatically when you level.

As for the UI, I feel it comes down to what you want to achieve;
* Build template; this is the levelling guide. It would enforce any feat choices with prerequisites/requirements and give you some kind of text step by step process at the end. This is a finalisation process that you could use to enter a build into DDO.
* Scratch-pad; This is the "at a glance" view; the playful/conceptual tool. Maybe don't bother with skill points for starting out. Be more lax with ability points (enter afterwards). Let you hand pick 10 feats you are trying to fit in; maybe drag them over to the various default slots (1, 3, 6.. etc). Highlight prereq issues as you are doing it. Lots of tool tips and information.

The second interface would be great for when I was looking at trying to convert over some NWN1/2 builds into DDO. One was a rogue archer (Fighter/Rogue), a dragon disciple/fighter/weapon master/wizard and an wizard/arcane archer.

I was trying to imagine how I could envisage these in DDO. What I really wanted when I started was something more loose to drop in different splits and more around feats. i.e. be nice to enter or somehow choose 12rogue/6 fighter/2monk and have it just allocate those classes for me 1-20. Then afterwards let me optimise it by dragging the arrangement around. As it evolves I can check the ability allocation and finally skill points and enhancements.

So two different modes would be just lovely!

[EllisDee37]

Quick question, what's the actual database you guys decided to use?

[Ron]

Quick question, what's the actual database you guys decided to use?

We are using Microsoft SQL Server Compact 4.0

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/downl....aspx?id=17876

Ultimately in order to use the planner, you guys will have to install that runtime (it allows the program to perform database functions, otherwise it doesn't work). At some point, I need to put together an installer that will handle .NET 4, that database, and the planner, but it's not exactly high on my priority list at the moment

[EllisDee37]

Nice, good choice.

In terms of an alpha preview, I'm happy to manually install whatever dependencies are needed.

[Aganthor]

I WOULD LOVE to install any alpha previews!!! Was a programmer before being a teacher so I don't mind hunting for stuff to take care of the dependancies!