Character Planner - New Interface Ideas

[Drakos]

The Forum Export Tool: I swear, I will be working on this soon. There will come a point in the not too distant future when you will be able to customize the forum export to your liking rather than having to live with what we have coded for you. I will certainly give you the commands you need to create a template that sorts the enhancements in the way you are asking for.

In this vain, I would really love to see an import tool as well. Copy the planner output from a forum post into the clipboard and the program parse the data into the planner.

[Drakos]

In an ideal world, it'd be a web app.

Not in my ideal world it wouldn't. I prefer it as a stand alone app.

[Ron]

well, plus there are some serious limitations on what you can do with a web app regarding save files. It's not impossible to get around, but it's pretty hacky. And the size of our input files might also be a problem for a web app as well (it already takes forever to load them as a standalone, I'd hate to think of a web browser trying to load all that data!). I think we are just too complex to work as a web app at this point.

[Hjarki]

If you were to design a new interface for the Character Planner, what concepts would you put into it? How would you do it?

I'd uncouple the building from the leveling process. While the current methodology mimics how the game actually works, it doesn't really match how people think about characters.

So instead of going through class -> stat raise -> feats -> skills -> etc. level-by-level, break out each step into it's own category and display it by level.

Start with race/alignment - these are invariant over leveling. Just toss them up top somewhere.

You'd have class on the left - 20 slots for class. You can probably just have three dropdowns and three columns of radio buttons. If you change alignment, wipe out all levels that depended on the old alignment.

Then you'd have stat raises (these are unaffected by anything else). Tomes could be handled by a control off to the side somewhere that merely asked what level of tome you had for each stat and then this level could be automatically added into stats at the appropriate level (+1 @ 4, +2 @ 7, etc.). I suppose there could be some sort of 'advanced' tag for those rare characters who applied a +1 tome @ level 18.

Then do feats. Everyone is going to have a feat at 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 and then some people are going to have specialized feats at various other levels. When you change anything to the left (class or stat raises) or above (the previous feat changes), the feat selection re-calculates and invalid selections get wiped out (this adds a bit of complexity, but it's not really all that tough to iterate through "is this valid?" function). So if you swap out your Fighter levels, you may no longer have the BAB to get GTHF at level 12. Swap out your stat bonuses and Improved Precise Shot might disappear. Change out Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery below it goes *poof*. You don't really need a 'red text to indicate error' because people tend to think of feat chains in terms of the result rather than the process.

Lastly, do skills. On the horizontal header, have drop boxes to select a skill for that column. Then have boxes where you can adjust the investment for each of 20 levels. Whenever you increase a skill, you also decrease any of the boxes below it that would become invalid. If you originally invested 0 points in level 1 - 4 then 8 points in level 5, adding +1 skill point at level 3 would reduce the level 5 investment to 7 points (since otherwise you'd be investing more than 1 point/level). Over on the right you could show "X/Y" where X is the number of points spent and Y is the number available for a given class level. If class/intelligence changes to reduce X below Y, then simply start with the right-most skill at that level, proceeding backwards to wipe out skill investments until you hit the point where X = Y. (Note: you could even have an 'automate' button that allocated skill points as efficiently as possible by giving preference to the left-most skills and just giving the right-most skills the dregs).

The existing interface for enhancements would work well.

What you'd end up with is an interface that more closely mimic'd the player's thought process. No one is thinking "I want to play a character who spends 3 points on Disable Device at level 5". They're thinking "I want to play a character with at least 12 levels of Barbarian who can also use Intelligence to damage with repeating-crossbows and has maximum Haggle skill" (or at least something more practical with a similar level of detail).

[Rhysem]

well, plus there are some serious limitations on what you can do with a web app regarding save files. It's not impossible to get around, but it's pretty hacky. And the size of our input files might also be a problem for a web app as well (it already takes forever to load them as a standalone, I'd hate to think of a web browser trying to load all that data!). I think we are just too complex to work as a web app at this point.

There were hero planner web apps for CoX that carried a substantial majority of the complexity that the ddo builder does, and they worked fine. They supported both saves and easy linking either to the character save or to the literal string that defined what had been picked/slotted/etc.

I thought about building one myself, actually, but what holds me back is I don't feel like wasting time duplicating all the prereqs data.

[gDra]

- where it is possible make the window big enough to avoid scrolling (skills selection)
- where scrolling can't be avoided add a search filter (feats)
- keep information that is barely important (spells) or too complex (enhancements) away from the main menu (accessable through an extra tab or button)
- less clicks to speed up the building process: e.g. after selecting a class let the planner go to the next step automatically

For fast system based building I would like to see something like this:
after basic build information input (race, classes, abilities, alignment, pastlifes, tomes) you are presented a table to make choices like ability increases and feats.

[Bart_D]

First, I love the Planner ...and I also think it's awesome that you plan to update it.

After reading the first page I went and made a quick mock-up in Excel and now I see it's basically the same as gDra has posted above here. On the right of it, I'd like to add a (transposed) skill planner like what EllisDee37 illustretes; it could be with all skills or selected skills only.

The main thing I would love to see is all (important) choices for all levels on one screen. I'd probably leave out things like selected spells and enhancements to a seperate screen. But it would be really nice to be able to see and edit Class/Stat/Feats/Skills for all levels at the same time.

[Rhaphael]

How about a Forum Import Tool? Like a way to get forum exports back into the planner so we can change someone else's build to suit our needs without having to manually build it up first.

[Munkenmo]

But for those of you asking to keep to a level based system, keeping in mind you have the printout for use at the trainer, would you be okay with a more system based planner?

The UI/functionality suggestions you made are good, we'll put them on the list.

Im ok with a system based planner, my concern is it will have issues on multiclasses, where i need to maximise skill efficiency by letting skills lag in cross class skills, then pump them as class skills.

Example here

[MeliCat]

First up... thank you thank you thank you thank you.

Also... it's always bugged me how little screen real estate you give feats. Feats are probably the things that I spend the most time fussing about after level 1. I need space to think. I need to be able to see and compare options. I want to see the ones that are not available to me and understand why.

So... all very well to have space for all the other important stuff... but after level 1 there is a bunch of things you don't need to tuck them right up top on one line out of the way and not take up so much space. Eg race, gender, alignment. etc.

I need feat playspace. I need to have a place I can grab a feat and look at it's description (I usually do this with a bunch of snipits and paint - crude but it works as a scratch pad). I want to have a place where I can stick a feat in and set it up properly. And then I want a playspace for feats that I'm thinking about but not sure of yet. And they can stay visible for the whole build if I haven't got around to using them yet. That way I know I have a bunch of feats I want. I stick them in the playspace. I do my build and as I go I use these up. If I have to change something around I put it in my playspace to apply later. Or I might decide to dump it and bin it. Or leave it there just for future reference on the build of the feats I didn't use if I ever revisit and want to try something else. I can see that others have ideas as to how these feats should be displayed once they're set in the build and there are some good ones. My problem is just looking and comparing what I want with what I am allowed easily.

The other bit is stats level up as it affects pre-reqs. What about having that as a tree or something to one side? So you have your initial stats... and then as the levels go you can see what they change to. So a simple display might literally be straight down the R or LHS. So it's check at a glance while your looking at feats.

_____S__D__C__I__W__C__
lev 1_13_15_16_8_17_8
lev 2_13_15_16_8_17_8
lev 3_14_16_17_9_19_9 (tomes have kicked in plus a level up)

[EllisDee37]

For more context in how I actually make builds (not that I'm so special, just a datapoint) here's the feat worksheet from mny kensei cleric build. One key element for melee builds is having a clearly visible and easily referenced BAB column:



Here's the same build's skill worksheet, which illustrates the concern fTdOmen discusses (quoted below.) In this specific example, I hit heal and concentration pretty hard but try to limit those skill raises to only the cleric levels.

I have two skill grids; the first one is without an int tome for posting on the forums, the second is with a +2 int tome from a past life, which is what my actual character has:

Im ok with a system based planner, my concern is it will have issues on multiclasses, where i need to maximise skill efficiency by letting skills lag in cross class skills, then pump them as class skills.

[Kalevor]

Im ok with a system based planner, my concern is it will have issues on multiclasses, where i need to maximise skill efficiency by letting skills lag in cross class skills, then pump them as class skills.

Example here

I like it, very visual

[Humungazoid]

Great ideas here, love the ideas for system based levelling, skill copy/pre-assign and tome auto-stat in particular. Here's a couple of things I haven't noticed (hopefully they're not in an update I missed):

• Brighter toggle buttons for things like skill and stat adjusters. I sometimes have trouble making them out.
• Buttons for TR, LR and IR. These would start a new character at the appropriate stage, retaining and increment appropriate attributes like past lives, tomes and name.
• MeliCat got in before me with the feat workspace idea, so I'd like to give that a thumbs-up with the following addition: another workspace that's automatically populated with missing prerequisite feats. So if I place GTWF at level 18 TWF and ITWF appear here ready for me to try and fit them in at earlier levels.

[Humungazoid]

Edit button's on the blink, so to clarify:

• Brighter toggle buttons for things like skill and stat adjusters. I sometimes have trouble making them out.

I actually mean a larger difference in appearance between the increment buttons that have been used and those that have not.

[spectroum]

I've been using the planner for a long time and i find the level-by-level buld up very usefull because this way

a) i can always see what i should get at each level when i have to level up in live
b) i can always remember my class progression when i need to LR and respec my classes so i can't mess up with my LR
c) it gives me a good idea of my character progression at each level and how it can handle the associated content


i really don't think you should change the build up but add/fix some stuff on the current


so to fix

- iconics in general (class breakdown,PLs, etc) which you are doing but i'm just pointing out still
- some enh pres like in angel of vengeance, Inquisition is no longer a pre for Angelic Resistance (even in wiki the AoV tree screenshot is wrong but the text is correct)
- certain class feats like favored enemies not to be available at any level (mentioned above too)
- tomes applied to skills at their ML, since they changed it at live a long time ago and now they apply at the tome ML instead of the next lvl (a +2 int tome at lvl 7 wil grant the extra skill point at lvl 7 not at lvl 8)


things to add

+ spell power list at each level and at cap or if its too much work just add it at cap
+ dodge
+ skill tomes
+ PRR
+ doublestrike
+ tactical,spell DCs
+ a way to add equipment since they contribute to the above listed


now i'll just share my insight on the equipment workaround

since we have tons of equipment to choose from and thus can be hard and/or take huge amount of time to code into the planner it would be enough if you can just add ML20-28 equipment

- see if you can team up with ddowiki and use their database on named equipment and release a data expansion on your planner in the future that will contain all of the equipment and will load only when someone actually wants to add equipment to their builds. You can make that available at heroic-epic caps or just at epic cap since this can be usefull at cap mostly anyway.
- if the above is too much work then try creating something like a gear generator which will provide us all the available effects and we just edit the numbers. For example offer 4-5 editable slots at a blank belt that we can add our own effects like

1st effect: tactical DCs (insight bonus) +5
2nd effect: doublestrike % (morale bonus) +3
3rd effect: skill: use magic device (competence bonus) +3
4th effect: skill: open lock (competence bonus) +15
5th effect: skill: disable device (competence bonus) +15

(in case you didn't notice yet...thats an epic spare hand t3)

- with lootgen items just do the above since the possible combinations are way too many

- add an augment slot generator at the equipment section. Like a panel where we can add our total augment slots (lets say 2) and we can choose from an augment list or edit the associated augments with effects

e.g (blue,colorless slots from the epic spare hand)
Number of slots:2
Augment 1: physical resistance rating (enhancement bonus) +14
Augment 2: charisma (insight bonus) +2


that's just a basic idea of some suggestions...i'm sure these can blossom in your hands if you want to



atm the only thing really missing from the planner is the option to add end game gear so we can see our future builds at their top potential


thanks for the time you spent in reading this and keep up the good work


EDIT: i think i got carried away with many ideas that aren't that much UI-related, but once i started typing there was no way to contain some thoughts but express them

[EllisDee37]

Personally I'd remove the items component altogether and never look back. Items change much too frequently (new items every update) to have any hope of keeping up.

Related to that, I'd remove any "final number" stats that would normally include items. (eg: Hit Points, Spell Points, etc...)

[Ron]

Personally I'd remove the items component altogether and never look back. Items change much too frequently (new items every update) to have any hope of keeping up.

Related to that, I'd remove any "final number" stats that would normally include items. (eg: Hit Points, Spell Points, etc...)

We're talking about eventually having a tool for you guys that will allow you to directly (from within the character planner itself) modify the text files. Which means you will be able to input new equipment yourself with all of its stats, rather than having you have to wait for us to update the files. We haven't yet worked out the details (e.g. what happens to your modifications when we release an update to the planner?). What I am thinking is having a way for you guys to "Send Report" once you have finished inputting something, which will simply email me what you changed, so we can then drop those changes back into the master version of the planner, or something along those lines. We haven't really figured that part out yet.

[Munkenmo]

Rather than keeping up with every item turbine will ever make, (and rely on us to update them with proper naming schemes)

Would it be simpler to group all different item effects, into drop down trees, and have us fill in the stats on our items.

Ie helmet:

Stats:
Enhancment:
str
Dex
Etc.
Exceptional:
Str
Dex
Etc.
Insight:
Str
Dex
Etc

Hitpoints:
Spell points:
Dc boosts:


So long as things are collapsible the main list wouldnt be that overwhelming, im not sure how hard it would be to add to the lists as turbine introduce new effects though.

[Seikojin]

We're talking about eventually having a tool for you guys that will allow you to directly (from within the character planner itself) modify the text files. Which means you will be able to input new equipment yourself with all of its stats, rather than having you have to wait for us to update the files. We haven't yet worked out the details (e.g. what happens to your modifications when we release an update to the planner?). What I am thinking is having a way for you guys to "Send Report" once you have finished inputting something, which will simply email me what you changed, so we can then drop those changes back into the master version of the planner, or something along those lines. We haven't really figured that part out yet.

That would be good. Like something that you just enter values in boxes? Or maybe something with dropdowns and a name box to add entries into your own file? I think that would help people build or maintain item management pretty well. I think doing something to have players manage their items is a step in a better direction; getting rid of it altogether would suck.

[Seikojin]

An Idea.

...snip...

I like this to a degree, and it kind of illustrates the minimalist pane idea I was talking about above. I think the area where you have feats should be considered the active pane, and it should be surrounded by tabs that change its view to suit the thing you are working on. So skills tab would bring up skills, feats for feats, levels for the level based options you are on (for said level in the upper right). I think level 1 should include all the past life setup stuff. You could even have a statistics tab that shows breakdowns of spellpower and ac, prr, etc.