Wizard: Drow or Iconic Elf

[MartinusWyllt]

You sure you can still do that? I believe the harm scrolls were removed from that technique a couple updates ago when they redid the collectors. (I think that technique may have been removed altogether, not just the harm scrolls.)

As a proof of concept, go acquire one single harm scroll from a repeatable source (no ah or trade channel) and then report back what resources you spent to get it.

Yeah, I don't see an update from this thread:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/412292

Specifically:

We are looking into new possibilities for Harming yourself, and possibly other self Inflicted Wounds.

[Panzermeyer]

You can go back, but you can only go back from 28, not from 20. At 28, you can Iconic TR and get a new race at level 1 and an Iconic past life + Epic past life *or* you can Epic TR and get just an Epic past life and go back to level 20.

So you can do an Iconic TR and still get an Epic Past Life Feat as well?

I thought it was one or the other? Am I wrong?

[Satyriasys]

So you can do an Iconic TR and still get an Epic Past Life Feat as well?

I thought it was one or the other? Am I wrong?

You are not wrong. You can Iconic TR and get a Iconic past life and Heroic past life

[SirValentine]

Max DC in what?
<snip>
Taking AM to tier 5 with lich form costs you -1 to all DCs compared to max.

Though Tier 5 AM with Vampire form gives you the best Enchantment DCs, doesn't it?

[EllisDee37]

Though Tier 5 AM with Vampire form gives you the best Enchantment DCs, doesn't it?

Yes, but unimproved vampire form? Yucky! hehheh.

[nibel]

Though Tier 5 AM with Vampire form gives you the best Enchantment DCs, doesn't it?

It is very hard to ignore the +4 Int (+2 DC all-around) in the improved lich form. Up to level 17, enchantment vampire is the best DC you can achieve, but as soon as you get access to Lich, there is almost no reason to go back to any of the earlier forms. Even if you are not necro-specced.

Comparing:

Vampire with Archmage T5: +4 Enchantment DC, +1 Necro, triple light damage
Improved Lich with Archmage Enchantment T4: +4 Int (+2 general DC), +1 Necro, +1 Enchantment, double light damage

Basically, you are trading +1 enchantment DC for +2 non-enchantment DC and less light damage.

[bsquishwizzy]

Though Tier 5 AM with Vampire form gives you the best Enchantment DCs, doesn't it?

Up until you meet a caster that spams light spells, and then you become a crispy critter.

And when I say "a caster" it usually means all of them past lvl 10...

[bsquishwizzy]

I say go Sun Elf.

I mean, after all, who wants to play a race that looks like it lost a fight with a purple Magic Marker...?

[EllisDee37]

Pretty sure SirValentine wasn't actually suggesting to run in vampire form, just pointing out the theoretical max enchantment dc.

[Deathdefy]

I dunno, it seems kinda meh to me. You still won't have sorc level dps. It ends up being worth somewhere between 5-10% extra dps over the long haul if I remember correctly. Not worth sacrificing 5% DC on a DC caster.

Just to be clear; on every caster but Necromancy spec casters you're 'sacrificing' only 1 Enchantment DC. If you are Illusion spec that's not a problem.

Right now I'm giving serious consideration to a Transmutation spec caster to make EE What Goes Up trivial. It's a bit too one-tricky even for me, but it's not like the other schools have unusable DCs.

You also get Master of Magic, which is nice.

"5 - 10% extra dps over the long haul" might be true if you keep an identical rotation while Supremacy is active... which doesn't seem smart to me.

I'm unsure where that stat is from, or what the actual stat is, but my experience in time taken soloing the end boss of EE BoB suggests a larger difference in raw dps.

I also know from fun in EE BoB (which is my testing ground for rotations, etc) that Supremacy gives an opportunity to change the SP: damage dealt efficiency of a wizard to a drastic degree.

Anyway this insistence that "Tier 5 of AM is so terrible that no DC caster should ever take it and therefore Sun Elf is better than Drow" is crazy (If that paraphrasing is somehow unfair, feel free to correct it).

There are builds where that is not the case. I play some of those builds.

Ignoring the costs of a Lesser Heart +1 to get pure, and the exit cost and lost opportunity of requiring an Iconic TR instead of an Epic TR then HTR, is also silly. To me, unless you're 100% iron clad definitely doing this is as your final life, especially with the recent advent of Epic Past Lives many of which would be nice if not crucial on a wizard, it's something that heavily detracts from the comparison.

Try either or both of Arcane Supremacy or a non-Necromancy specced Wizard and you almost undoubtedly will appreciate 41 / 31 / 6 + 2 somewhere is a superior split on some builds. On those builds, going Sun Elf does not make sense.

On non-definitely-final-life builds it also doesn't make sense except in theory land. I concede we're sort of in theory land now, but I think we walked here from practical advice land and should go back.

[Andoris]

Right now I'm giving serious consideration to a Transmutation spec caster to make EE What Goes Up trivial. It's a bit too one-tricky even for me, but it's not like the other schools have unusable DCs.

Enchantment or Necro spec'd PM makes EE WGU trivial. I am happy to take any group as long as they can do somewhat decent DPS (just don't want to take forever or drink a bunch of pots) up there with my PM. Success is never a question, just how long it will take / how many pots I have to drink. If I have a good group, pot usage = 0.. the worse the dps of the rest of the party.. the higher that number (or the time to complete) goes.

I am not sure what Transmutation would make that any easier

[Deathdefy]

Enchantment or Necro spec'd PM makes EE WGU trivial. I am happy to take any group as long as they can do somewhat decent DPS (just don't want to take forever or drink a bunch of pots) up there with my PM. Success is never a question, just how long it will take / how many pots I have to drink. If I have a good group, pot usage = 0.. the worse the dps of the rest of the party.. the higher that number (or the time to complete) goes.

I am not sure what Transmutation would make that any easier

You sound very good. Was thinking Flesh to Stoning all respawning mobs.

[EllisDee37]

"5 - 10% extra dps over the long haul" might be true if you keep an identical rotation while Supremacy is active... which doesn't seem smart to me.

I'm unsure where that stat is from, or what the actual stat is, but my experience in time taken soloing the end boss of EE BoB suggests a larger difference in raw dps.

Back of the napkin calculations of the enhancement description, so take it with a medium-sized rock of salt.

Ignoring the costs of a Lesser Heart +1 to get pure, and the exit cost and lost opportunity of requiring an Iconic TR instead of an Epic TR then HTR, is also silly.
[...]
On non-definitely-final-life builds it also doesn't make sense except in theory land. I concede we're sort of in theory land now, but I think we walked here from practical advice land and should go back.

Those stipulations are not theory, they're part of the premise of the thread. Specifically, what is best for a final-life DC pale master for teh_troll, who stipulated that he doesn't care about those costs.

[Deathdefy]

The Pay2Win part of the Iconic elf I can accept that I have to buy it, they LR out the Cleric Level . . . but the fact that I can be 20 much faster is kinda cool.

Those stipulations are not theory, they're part of the premise of the thread. Specifically, what is best for a final-life DC pale master for teh_troll, who stipulated that he doesn't care about those costs.

The exit cost of 4200 commendations for an Iconic PL instead of an Epic PL wasn't - and is more expensive than the LR +1 - but I'm being a pedant now so true enough. Neither was 'final life' but yes. Onward to more exciting threads.

[EllisDee37]

The exit cost of 4200 commendations for an Iconic PL instead of an Epic PL wasn't - and is more expensive than the LR +1 - but I'm being a pedant now so true enough. Neither was 'final life' but yes. Onward to more exciting threads.

Not sure how an iconic heart factors in. You need an iconic heart to TR out of an iconic, not into. So a final life sun elf never needs to acquire a single iconic heart. (Do drow lives until last one as a sun elf.)

[bennyson]

Lol TT your calling Sun-Elves P2W thats hilarious...that Race is so useless its own enhancements are counter intuitive let alone trying to find any synergy with cleric.

Go Human...Wiz18/Rogue2 w/ Insightful reflexes Max Int/Con.

The Sun Elf race is, hands down, the BEST race for a Wizard if you don't mind paying a little extra money to remove the cleric class through a +1 Lesser Heart of Wood.

Sun Elves start with a base of 10 Intelligence, like the Drow, however, Drow racial tree is inferior to the Sun Elf tree by three things.

1. Sun Elf racial tree gets the Arcanum enhancement, which gives +100 sp and +3 extra spell pen at max rank.

2. Sun Elf racial tree gets the Rejuvenation of Dawn, which is like Unyielding Sovereignty, but can only be used twice per rest and has a shorter cooldown. (180 seconds(3 minutes) compare to 300 seconds(5 minutes))

3. Sun Elf racial tree gets the Blessing of Amaunator, which gives Mass Aid, Mass Deathward, and Mass Spell Resistance at max rank, these are Divine buffs.

The Drow racial tree does NOT have any of these. The Drow are still, however, the best race for a Sorcerer due to their 10 CHA.

The Human racial tree is also inferior to Sun Elf as well, the only difference between a Human and a Sun Elf is an extra feat, which many experienced players don't care about. Going 18 wiz/2 rog is too great as you WILL BE a weaker caster than someone who has gone pure wizy.

[danbevj]

Has anyone seen any discussion if any plans to offer Sun Elf as a race (purchase or otherwise) as a non-Iconic option?

[Teh_Troll]

found a +1 heart on a mule, went Sun Elf. Looks like a complete no brainer with the whole +3 Spell pen, more SP, higher INT.

Pay2win beaches!

[voodoogroves]

found a +1 heart on a mule, went Sun Elf. Looks like a complete no brainer with the whole +3 Spell pen, more SP, higher INT.

Pay2win beaches!

+1 enchant DCs
access (if you want) to some pretty decent buffs (DW at a high CL) - though on a PM less useful ...
plus, not drow ... and you can spend AP on better SR anyway (paired w/ the DW)

[bennyson]

found a +1 heart on a mule, went Sun Elf. Looks like a complete no brainer with the whole +3 Spell pen, more SP, higher INT.

Pay2win beaches!

Sounds like your enjoying it!