Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

[maddmatt70]

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.


This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

Edit: this post is somewhat misleading this quest per saga, but a quest can be in multiply sagas so it is 36 quests or so.

[SisAmethyst]

and lets be realistic too. people on TR trains or want to hurry up and TR will farm the first 2 21-23 sagas on EH at best. they wont continue up the saga list. basically, might as well make the heart of woods in those 2 sagas and leave the rest alone.

Yes, that is also true!

But anyway, already the gut feeling to have to run sagas makes them already less favourable and less fun because it doesn't leave me the choice. Right now I can run with my TR buddies the next best quest, no matter if this is VoN, Phiarlan, Deneith or the ones in the Harbor. We can choose, not the system predict what we have to do.

[EllisDee37]

I tabulated 46 quests in total, for a total of 258 CoV - 36 FR quests that contribute to multiple sagas, and then the 10 GH. Though, my estimates are working off of DDO wiki and not what's on Lamaland, so my apologies if my figures are off.

Overlap is factored in. If it only takes 46 quests to complete all those sagas (if run "perfectly," meaning no wasted repeats) you'll get 138 comms, not 258.

EDIT:

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.

Emphasis added.

[voodoogroves]

I would totally be down with separating heroic TR from epic TR and how you get the hearts.

I would totally be ok with a heroic heart being a favor reward (or hell, +2 tome replacement reward) or even free to VIPs.

I would totally be ok with whatever EPIC grind aimed at reincarnating at 28. I don't mind playing through the 20s to get something I can use at 28. I do mind playing to 23 or 24 just to get something I wish I had 4 levels ago.

[Thar]

I know I did not cover everything in one post.
We are still listening - even though I often see that people think we don't. There are a lot of opinions being expressed.

The topics I covered today were already in discussion during the design talks, some of the other details were not debated as much but will be now.

I can't answer on a change for bind type. Please be patient for the answer.

I can't tell you how long twelve tokens will be the "preferred method".
I would like to see it cleaned it up as a system, consolidate the items, get the right balance, etc. But not at the detriment of people enjoying the game. ...or excluding content.

Thank you for continuing to give us opinions, examples of how you play are also useful feedback tools. We'll keep working on the communication flow.

why not do something simple and change the sagas to drop tokens... and the new items take tokens instead of something new. WHY keep inventing the wheel.

[PNGameAcct]

why not do something simple and change the sagas to drop tokens... and the new items take tokens instead of something new. WHY keep inventing the wheel.

I suspect this is directly related to the last "event" that caused an uproar in the game...

[LordDunmore]

... If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. ...

Here is where your starting basis is flawed. I would venture to state that most people do *NOT* have a level-cap characters. If you are basing all your assumptions on this fact, you are doing a tremendous dis-service to a HUGE part of your player base.
Maybe a bit of research is in order. How many accounts have access to the high-level packs? How many accounts have a level-capped toon? I would think that Turbine could figure out these numbers easily. To further the research, of all the level capped toons you have, how many are actually played on a regular or even semi-regular basis. Once you have an accurate number figured out, you can then start your calculations.
By assuming that most of your players are power-gamers with Level-Capped Toons, you are basically telling all your casual players 'good luck on ever doing a reincarnation'.

[SisAmethyst]

why not do something simple and change the sagas to drop tokens... and the new items take tokens instead of something new. WHY keep inventing the wheel.

Because then they could also drop fragments here and there which is not possible with Comms...

[Aerinsma]

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.


This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

This sounds like 83-84 quests on epic hard for btc things that can purchase something that players can currently aquire with half as many quests on epic normal with bta ingredients. These currently available quests offer players more variety and choice and some of them are free to play, thus available to anyone. None of them require further purchase of the expansions. You have stated that bta is more valuable than btc, and I agree. All of these things should show you the enormity of the nerf you are proposing and why players are upset. There are no sagas that can be run without purchases and only one available to vips without expansion purchases. Also sagas have other available rewards that players want to get which would require more quest repetitions which I for one will find boring. Current token fragment rewards come in the epic treasure chests and don't feel like they are taking something away.

Edit to add: I'm sure with the current system you are selling true hearts in the store or else you would not have raised heart prices last year and kept them up, so it really isn't too easy to earn them now.

[droid327]

If it comes down to BtA, or cheaper, I vote emphatically for cheaper!

The other option punishes new players. It presupposes that you already have a level-capped toon, with all the past lives he needs, and he's just going to sit at level cap and farm out ingredients for all your alts. It's basically saying that the devs consider it the intent of the game to get an endgame char, and then farm up multi-life alts.

Casual players don't have that. I have one main that I've been playing for over a year; he's on his 3rd life now, about ready to head to 4. I have one other second-life toon, that's all I've appreciably put effort into. I'm sure a lot of other players are like that too - they may not be as vociferous as the hardcore minmaxers who have a stable of endgame raiding toons, but I bet more players than not are more like me than them. Hell, I bet a lot of players don't like having any alts at all, but prefer to devote all their gameplay to one character - especially since TR allows them to try different builds without rolling alts, unlike other games.

I don't want to have to slog out 20-30% more grinding for my TR, just because someone else can do it faster and easier. I'm not going to pass comms to my alt; I don't even have shared storage.

Just don't punish the casual players, because you're balancing systems to cater to the hardcore power gamers.

[Firewall]

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

I prefer BtA over BtC for the new commendations anytime but in my opinion 3 Commendations with the proposed cost for hearts is WAY too low.

[Thar]

There's active discussion here at Turbine about the binding status of Commendations of Valor.

This is what we are tentatively moving to for the next Lamannia preview (which is decided days ahead of time, so the conversation is likely to keep moving and Lamannia will be out of date by then):

Heroic True Heart of Wood: Costs 250 Commendations of Valor
Binds to Character on Acquire

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

BTA as we have too much junk already collecting space in bags etc...

[oradafu]

I suspect this is directly related to the last "event" that caused an uproar in the game...

Except the Devs purposely didn't include Epic Tokens into any Epic quests post-MOTU.

Players complained about the lack of Epic Tokens in those Epic quests.

The Devs reply was that Heroic Comms and Epic Tokens couldn't drop in the same quests.

They then renamed Epic Tokens to Tokens of the Twelve claiming that they would be an award for Epic Eberron quests only.

Then they released Epic GH without the Epic Tokens.

So this was a plan they had been working on for over a year, not because of something that happened a week ago.

[Worldcrafter]

You won't get 228 for all those sagas. Vargouille was pretty clear on this point: Once you factor in the multi-tasking, it works out to around 3 per EH quest. Of those 76 quests, if there are (to pick a number) 20 duplicates, you only needed to run 56 quests to turn in all those sagas. If that's the case, turning all the sagas in will get you roughly 56*3=168 comms, not 228.

I think we need to clarify what Vargouille meant with the overlap; I took it to be that after the overlap was taken into consideration, you would be credited for 3 CoV for each E Hard you were credited for saga-wise. So, if a quest made progress in 1 saga, it net you effectively 3 CoV at the end, progress in 2 sagas netted you 6 CoV, etc. Otherwise, the most cost-efficient method would be going after a single saga that had the minimum amount of crossover.

If, however, I am erroneous in my thinking, then I deeply apologize.

[Rynojedi]

Long time lurker, first time poster.
I have been VIP for almost three years. I have a completionist, and a few other TR project characters.
I have all content. Many times, I straight out bought the True Heart to fast track my completionist. I have
bought many an xp pot, and have considered the otto's boxes, but have never bought them, but I enjoy
having the option there. I have bought many other incidentals. This is just to let you, devs of DDO, know
what type of player you have here.
Due to financial restraints, I let my VIP sub expire about one month ago, but was planning on re-subbing
this week. With the current discussion about comms of valor, I am seriously considering looking elsewhere
for my gaming pleasure.
I enjoy the OPTION to run sagas for special rewards. Sagas are a great way to push sales of packs and
get players to run a wider variety of content rather than just what is fastest xp/min ratio. BUT, if the current
system is implemented, please make the CoVs an additional reward for completing a saga (i.e.2-5 in each
end reward or end chest, and 30-80 for completing the saga), in addition to the current choices of
xp/renown/skill tomes. Oh, yes, and BtA. Why do you care which one of my characters gets the rewards?
They are all played by the same paying customer.
I am HAPPY to pay you, Turbine, for developing new content and for perks/conveniences thru the DDO store.
BUT, let me choose what I spend it on. I will most likely buy an epic reincarnitaion on my completionist the day
it hits the stores IF and ONLY if it is a reasonable cost and a very good epic past life feat. If you make it 40 bucks
(or 600 hours of grinding)and a +1 to hit (or +1 ac, etc etc), say goodbye to my money.

I have read much of this thread, and most all points have been covered, so I won't repeat them. I agree with most
of the other posters when they imply that your money maker is not in sellling Hearts, its in the xp pots/ottos/tomes etc.
If you try to make Hearts your main Cash cow, DDO will go the way of Ozymandias...

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[rest]

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.


This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

Then why is that what dropped, if that's "not what we're expecting"? There is literally a screen shot of it.

[rest]

I suspect this is directly related to the last "event" that caused an uproar in the game...

These new things go in a bag. The old things went in a bag.

[SisAmethyst]

why not do something simple and change the sagas to drop tokens... and the new items take tokens instead of something new. WHY keep inventing the wheel.

Ok, without being cynical I guess if I understand Glin right is that it is meanwhile too easy to farm those 20 tokens for a heart, which is an other reason why higher level epic quests don't drop them to don't make it even easier.

However, why then not just up the price to 30 or 40 tokens and in revenge have the token fragments drop in all epic content and with the the sagas being a source to earn complete 1-4 tokens on top.

[EllisDee37]

Actually, you'll only perform 36 quests for 228. I shall break it down for you if you'd like.

Thanks much for the breakdown.

Vargouille's exact words were "roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests." That's about as clear as it gets. Once you turn in all those sagas, since you only needed to run 36 quests you can expect roughly 108 valor total. From all the saga rewards combined.

[Jahamar1]

Your philosophy regarding currency should be that EVERYTHING has the potential to grant currency rewards, based on the time and difficulty of each individual accomplishment. You should be able to earn currency HOWEVER you enjoy playing the game - running the same quest, running different quests, challenges, adventure zones, etc. That way, everyone can earn the same rewards by having FUN, rather than by "grinding" whatever arbitrary pathway you lay out.

If Comms are your new universal currency, put them in Saga rewards. Put them in quest rewards. Put them in chests. Make them buyable with challenge mats and other barter currencies. Everything you "do" in game, other than economic activity like trading/crafting, should advance you towards "final character status" rewards like TRing.

I agree with this idea. Unlike some ppl, i cant do a quest more than 3 times before i am bored and want to move on. If i have to repeat a saga more than once i will hate this game and move on.
I enjoy TR'ing. it takes me 2-3 weeks to TR a toon. If i have to work harder at TR'ing than i currently am, i'll take my money elsewhere.
Elitists who have all the time in the world to play and farm a quest over and over again is good for them, but to design a game that tries to counter what they do at the expense of most normal ppl is wrong thinking. Elitists will always be what they are and find a way to do everything in the game in one '30 hour stay awake' session. Let them do what they do, but PLZ do not penalize everyone else for the sake of 1% of your income.

Currently i like the way the game is set up. I like the game play. I like how long it takes me to get what i want. Dont change my fun. I do not want to have to do things in the game i dont enjoy (like repeating sagas)to get my next TR life to happen.

I enjoy the OPTION to run sagas for special rewards. Sagas are a great way to push sales of packs and
get players to run a wider variety of content rather than just what is fastest xp/min ratio. BUT, if the current
system is implemented, please make the CoVs an additional reward for completing a saga (i.e.2-5 in each
end reward or end chest, and 30-80 for completing the saga), in addition to the current choices of
xp/renown/skill tomes. Oh, yes, and BtA. Why do you care which one of my characters gets the rewards?
They are all played by the same paying customer.

Especially the BTA part. I have special toons for farming certain things for other toons. Dont force me to use one toon for BTC stuff that i am already overburdened with a lack of inventory space to hold virtual items. I dont mind spending money on this game as it is. dont make me change my mind.