Hearts & Comms & Sagas Oh My!

[pjstechie]

Turbine has announced some rather big changes to the reincarnation system. For the most part this has been well received. Everything looked good in regards to the actual Heroic True, Epic, Lesser, and Iconic True reincarnations. The changes sound great, clearly take into account player feedback, and are all around positive. Then things went a little south and got ugly. We found out how hearts of wood would be available in game. Since you all didn't ask for it and I'm bored at work, here's my thoughts on the matter and some proposed tweaks. (PS: I'm doing this from a phone, please excuse lousy spelling, grammar, and formatting).

Where we are

Currently you can get true hearts by turning in Tokens of the Twelve. You can also turn these in for augments, but hardly anyone does (they cost the same number of tokens as a true heart but are about 1/10th the cost in points in the store).

To TR you go see an Orc hanging out by a tree in House J. Then you end up on a boat, a flying boat no less.

Sagas were recently introduced. They are effectively quest chains of quest chains. Personally, I like the system and see it as a bonus for running quests I was already running. However, the system is basically limited to Eveningstar and gianthold and there are plenty of people who aren't interested in completing a saga. As rewards you get choices of skill tomes, XP, or guild renown based on how long the saga is and what difficulty you ran the quests on.

What is being proposed by turbine

You cannot turn in tokens of the 12 for hearts of wood. Instead a new ingredient (commendations of valor) will be introduced for which you can turn in for hearts of wood. To get these comms you need to complete sagas, they are the only current known source. As currently proposed and implemented on Lamannia you would need to run a lot (50+) sagas to get a heroic true heart.

The Orc by the tree is gone, and it sounds like the airship is gone too. Instead all this reincarnation business will happen inside the hall of heroes.

What follows is some problems and potential fixes.

[pjstechie]

Hall of Heroes

The Orc by the tree moving to the Hall of Heroes sounds great. Same with the airship. The hall of heroes is a great space and I'd much rather hang out there, in a much more thematic place that looks nicer, than on a random airship. Lore wise the ship and the Orc don't really make sense, they have always felt a little forced into their positions.

Problems: Almost everyone thinks this area is VIP only mostly because you are not only selling access to the hall of heroes, but on log in, if you don't own the transport you are given the option to buy the hall of heroes. This leads us to believe that you must own them to even set foot in the hall of heroes, and it was only recently announced that you could go in without owning that feature.

Suggestions: make the hall of heroes entirely free. I wouldn't have recommended anyone buy the content itself before, and now that I know that you are only buying the ability to log into them directly I'm even less impressed. Buying this feature is a waste of money. Take the buying option out of the equation, I wouldn't even mind it just being a VIP option that doesn't show up on other accounts' log in screen or at least drop the price. Comparably, this feature just became laughable to me. Oh, while we are here, "the life-shaper?" Come on, that's a lame name, even if its a plant. You were doing so well with the lore thing.

[pjstechie]

Hearts, tokens of the 12, and comms

I'm going against popular opinion here, but I like this, at least where it is starting. Currently this system only supports old content. Nothing after MotU expansion gives tokens of the 12. I see that as a problem. That's where the good stops and the problems set in.

Problems
1) What in the world are we going to do with tokens of the 12. Now we get yet another ingredient to stick in our bags while the ingredient we already had is now useless.
-The augments cost way too many tokens to be an effective use of them.

2) Commendations of valor are only available via sagas
-This is not only a major limitation in getting them, but sagas are themselves very limiting in that only a very small percentage of quests are in sagas, and other than gianthold you need to have at least 1 of the expansion packs.

3) Commendations of valor are BTC
-So are the hearts, but I'm mostly okay with that in that you theoretically buy them then use them more or less right away.
-BTC is extremely limiting. It means I have to run that character even if I have no other reason to run that character. Instead of running another character that could use experience I have to run a character that doesn't and only needs comms.

Suggestions
1) Eliminate tokens of the 12 all together
-We need a system that utilizes old AND new content. Tokens of the 12 don't do that and their name just doesn't make any lore sense.
- I don't need yet another thing in my bag

2) Replace tokens of the 12 with commendations of valor
-The name just makes more sense from a lore stand point. It eliminates the need to tie all this stuff to the 12 and sounds more heroic anyways.
-Give us a way to turn tokens and fragments of the 12 into commendations of valor
-Make ALL epic end chests drop commendations of valor
--Again, we want to utilize old and new content, not 1 over the other.
-Challenge rewards
--I'm on the fence here, challenges shouldn't marginalize other content in terms of collecting for comms of valor, but they should probably be an option to do so.
--Eveningstar challenges should have a similar option to trade in for commendations of valor (and the other things you can get from house C challenges). These just don't get run much and a big reason is the reward comparison to house C - there's just not much to buy here other than gear that is once and done kind of thing

3) Turn greater tokens of the 12 into commendations of heroism
-Again, this makes a lot of lore sense. Heroism is a step up from valor.
-Let me turn in commendations of heroism for commendations of valor
-Basically just like the current tokens of 12 - and it doesn't go backwards!
-Make the turn in rate sensical
-Make all epic raids drop comms of heroism
-Once again, utilizing both old and new content. We don't want to marginalize one over the other, we want players to run them all.

4) Adjust the numbers - we still need balance
-Use what we currently have (in 12 tokens and heroic comms) as a base line
--The new system should be similar and maintain the current balance
--Longer and more difficult content should drop more commendations of valor
--Use FoT as a baseline for heroic commendations
--Easier older epic raids don't need to always drop comms
--Actually, the current drop rate of greater tokens is probably very appropriate
-Conversation rates from tokens of 12 to commendations should match the current relativity
-Big idea here: the numbers between the 2 systems can change, but the relativity should be maintained.

5) Commendations should be BTA - valor and heroic
-BTC is at times appropriate, but it extremely limiting. Longer term goals should be BTA
-Multitasking is preferred, I don't want to run the character I'm finished with and ready to reincarnate through loads of content to reincarnate. I want to run the character that needs work.
-This means I would be more willing to swap to say a healer to run some quests which makes forming groups (especially pugs) much easier. I don't have to run 1 specific character, I just need to run the content.

6) Keep using the system
-Tweaks sure, but we don't need to rewrite the system every year, it's the wrong way to entice me into running new content and it marginalizes the old stuff

7) Consider other ways of introducing commendations of valor
-I really don't mind if hearts are more expensive to get using this system so long as there are more options for acquiring them
-Heroic raids would be an option
-20th raid completion lists (make the amount a little larger maybe)
--Epic raids should still be commendations of heroism.

8) Give me more things to use commendations on
-Reincarnation hearts are great start
-Can we add lesser hearts to this
-Augments - reasonably priced, use the store prices as a guideline
-Astral shards? Turbine points? (Okay maybe too far)
-Pets, high end (xp pots) consumables

9) Give these comms a unique graphic
-Don't make them look like Eveningstar comms
-Make them pop out in your inventory, they are important!

[pjstechie]

Sagas

Adding commendations of valor to saga rewards is a great idea, but we can still do some fine tuning here.

Suggestions:
1) obviously the number of comms needs some work
-Be reasonable, these sagas are a lot of quests. Maintain the current expectation of time to heart acquisition ratio

2) More sagas
-Turbine: if you only take 1 suggestion out of this, make it this one - sagas are currently way too limiting to be the only source of commendations of valor.
-If commendations of valor are only available through sagas, we need sagas everywhere, at every level (okay maybe not levels 1-5).
--Currently we are limited to Eveningstar and gianthold - way way way too limiting, especially since only gianthold is doable without buying at least 1 expansion pack - major f2p turn off
--Of course, rewards should be balanced in line with what we currently have
--Also, this would nearly necessitate making commendations of valor BTA. No one wants to run a character they only need to TR though that many quests, most of which they have no other reason to run. It's just not fun.
--Sagas should be optional and a bonus for running a large grouping of quests, not such an integral part of a major system (reincarnation).

3) More reward options
-Not a big deal since the ones we have are good, but more options would not be amiss (astral shards?)

4) Enhance the saga experience with improved UI
-Think like a specialized quest journal
-Each saga shows quests competed with their difficulty and lists the remaining in "chain order"
-Clicking on a quest to be completed either opens the quest (if you have it) in your quest journal and/or gives you map notes to get to the quest giver.
Minimally tell me who to find and where.
-I should mention that I've been tracking sagas in a spreadsheet and haven't really looked at the current, if any, quest journal UI.
-but come on, I can do better with a simple spreadsheet than what I'm offered I game?

[whereispowderedsilve]

Well thought out & clearly stated, signed to all of the above! :P! ! ! Keep up the great work!

[Systern]

I hear by appoint you my speech writer, since you've clearly presented everything I said yesterday.

[EllisDee37]

-Challenge rewards
--I'm on the fence here, challenges shouldn't marginalize other content in terms of collecting for comms of valor, but they should probably be an option to do so.

Let's assume 2 fragments = 1 commendation of valor. (2000 token fragments to TR, ~1000 valor to tr.) The challenge token issue solves itself if you leave the 5 epic parts per 1 fragment ratio intact.

Right now on live you get 1 token for 300 epic parts, meaning 6000 epic parts for a heroic heart. If, instead, you could only convert for fragments you'd need 10,000 epic parts to convert into 2000 fragments (5:1) for your heart. This is probably pretty close to the difficulty they'll settle into once they back off the deliberately ridiculous initial setting. The end result would be 10 epic parts for 1 valor.

A secondary problem has nothing to do with challenges, but is related: The valor system removes the ability to stack large quantities of "potential hearts." How many potential hearts can you put in a single unbound ingredients bag? 125 by my count. (2500 tokens in a large bag, 2500/20=125.) With the valor system we can only stack TWO heroic hearts' worth of valor in a single bag. That's far too limiting.

[Zibowskij]

+1

[Archangel_666]

Let's assume 2 fragments = 1 commendation of valor. (2000 token fragments to TR, ~1000 valor to tr.) The challenge token issue solves itself if you leave the 5 epic parts per 1 fragment ratio intact.

Right now on live you get 1 token for 300 epic parts, meaning 6000 epic parts for a heroic heart. If, instead, you could only convert for fragments you'd need 10,000 epic parts to convert into 2000 fragments (5:1) for your heart. This is probably pretty close to the difficulty they'll settle into once they back off the deliberately ridiculous initial setting. The end result would be 10 epic parts for 1 valor.

A secondary problem has nothing to do with challenges, but is related: The valor system removes the ability to stack large quantities of "potential hearts." How many potential hearts can you put in a single unbound ingredients bag? 125 by my count. (2500 tokens in a large bag, 2500/20=125.) With the valor system we can only stack TWO heroic hearts' worth of valor in a single bag. That's far too limiting.

Just a very minor nitpick, but the part I've highlighted is slightly incorrect (Though not by much).

The actual number that could potentially be stored in a Large Bag is 126.25 (You forgot Fragments).

[EllisDee37]

Just a very minor nitpick, but the part I've highlighted is slightly incorrect (Though not by much).

The actual number that could potentially be stored in a Large Bag is 126.25 (You forgot Fragments).

In that case, 251.25 including raid tokens.

[Orinuth]

The MoTU Saga is 12 Quests, if they gave about 50 fragments per quest that would result in 6 tokens, I would find it reasonable to have to run about 3-6 sagas to TR, not 50+, that's insane.
If we are going to have to run a large amount of sagas, you need to open up more choices.
You could make a saga for running all the level 2/3 harbor quest, or doing the depths chain and sentinels of stormreach.
Please hear our complaints and take them into account!

[Archangel_666]

In that case, 251.25 including raid tokens.

Nicely spotted, I missed that too (Probably because while you can trade Raid Tokens down, you can't trade Dungeon Tokens up, so I probably had a mental block on them. lol)

[rayworks]

But why do anything with the Tokens? You don't need to add commendations of valor. Just put tokens in the epic chests everywhere. Replacing tokens with comms doesn't "fix" anything; it just adds yet another thing to my already stuffed bags.

[Scraap]

-Challenge rewards
--I'm on the fence here, challenges shouldn't marginalize other content in terms of collecting for comms of valor, but they should probably be an option to do so.
--Eveningstar challenges should have a similar option to trade in for commendations of valor (and the other things you can get from house C challenges). These just don't get run much and a big reason is the reward comparison to house C - there's just not much to buy here other than gear that is once and done kind of thing

3) More reward options
-Not a big deal since the ones we have are good, but more options would not be amiss (astral shards?)

on that:

I will say this about the sagas-as-resolution notion: IF you wanted to tie every single epicable pack or pair of packs to a self-contained saga, with options to pull a seal or shard alongside token-equivalents, that might come close to what we have now without killing prior investments with enough of a bump-up to come out as a net-positive for folks still interested in that portion of your portfolio.

That combined with the above would leave challenges as pure token farms, prior epic packs as accelerated item acquisition + tokens (resolving a little bit the whole 'outdated yet more grindy' issue there), and the higher end stuff from the newer sagas.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Hey guys, you should consider tweeting Glin this or DMing him on twitter: https://twitter.com/producerglin (I don't have twitter & am in the middle of mid-terms or I would).

Keep up the great work! Cheers! :P! ! ! I wish Rowan had a twitter as well, ugh.