Kensei Warpriest for new players (Human 12/8 Fighter/Cleric)

[Nodoze]

Now that Paladins are good is there a point to this build? Wasn't the original aim to create a Divine Melee?

Don't take this the wrong way its still a fine build but with Paladins rocking now how does this build distinguish itself from Paladin?

Mana-free AoE healing team-mates is pretty distinguishing.

[Grailhawk]

Mana-free AoE healing team-mates is pretty distinguishing.

A 5Cleric 3Monk X does much better at that fist of light, healing KI, and Aura three things this build doesn't have and there's not much stopping a Paladin from going 15/4/1 to pick up Ameliorating Strike.

[Nodoze]

A 5Cleric 3Monk X does much better at that fist of light, healing KI, and Aura three things this build doesn't have and there's not much stopping a Paladin from going 15/4/1 to pick up Ameliorating Strike.

Curious what would be your level 1 splash in the 15/4/1 build (I assume Fighter but figured better to ask/confirm)?

I ask as I have been thinking about doing a TWF Paladin with Ameliorating Strike...

Regarding the above build, yes it was originally a better Paladin than Paladin build but just because Paladins are now buffed doesn't mean that it isn't viable nor have a place anymore. I think more variation and options are good.

Edit: I am all for multiple group healing options but, unless I am missing something, compared to Ameliorating Strike, fist of light are weak/limted and a level 5 Radiant Aura would be weak and very AP intensive for the benefit...

[Grailhawk]

Curious what would be your level 1 splash in the 15/4/1 build?

No clue I guess fighter but its not something I've speced out.

Regarding the above build, yes it was originally a better Paladin than Paladin build but just because Paladins are now buffed doesn't mean that it isn't viable nor have a place anymore. I think more variation and options are good.

I agree its a fine build and if you are looking for a Fighter PL but really want to play a Paladin its the go to build, but now that Paladins are good this build has lost a lot of its luster. Used to be if some new player was looking to play a Paladin the best advice you could give him was to scrap that plan and come play this build that's not the case now. Or have I missed something about this build?

[EllisDee37]

Celestial Champion stacks w/everything, inc. Keen Edge and Swashbuckling, AFAIK. Keen Edge & Swashbuckling are both competence bonuses, so they only stack if you use, say, kukris or rapiers: +1 crit multiplier from Swashbucking, +1 crit range from Keen Edge (effectively duplicating Holy Sword). So I was thinking ftr 12 / cleric or FvS 5 / bard 3: that gets you Keen Edge, Swashbuckling, Power Surge, Skaldic Rage, Div Might, Ameliorating Strike.

My initial testing showed that Celestial Champion doesn't stack with Holy Sword, and Holy Sword is a competence bonus like all other crit modifiers. I only tested this using the inventory weapon detail screen, though, as opposed to actually swinging at mobs. Are you positive that it isn't a competence bonus?

[EllisDee37]

Now that Paladins are good is there a point to this build? Wasn't the original aim to create a Divine Melee?

Don't take this the wrong way its still a fine build but with Paladins rocking now how does this build distinguish itself from Paladin?

No offense taken, and it's a valid point. I'll certainly need to change the writeup in the OP.

For me, I like having this build mainly for flavor reasons, particularly in terms of epic destinies. I'd say the big picture differences between this and a paladin are:

- Tactics (mainly stunning blow, but also trip)
- Legendary Dreadnought, as opposed to paladins which will likely be Divine Crusader
- Heavier reliance on action boosts

That's pretty much it, but that's enough of a flavor difference for me to justify two character slots. Another reason you already touched on, which is to give a fighter past life, is a minor consideration at best.

[unbongwah]

My initial testing showed that Celestial Champion doesn't stack with Holy Sword, and Holy Sword is a competence bonus like all other crit modifiers. I only tested this using the inventory weapon detail screen, though, as opposed to actually swinging at mobs. Are you positive that it isn't a competence bonus?

Am I absolutely positive? No: for one thing, I don't have any epic Kensei I can use to test KE+CC right now. But I've read several posts from folks who say they do stack, as does SB+CC.

[Grailhawk]

No offense taken, and it's a valid point. I'll certainly need to change the writeup in the OP.

For me, I like having this build mainly for flavor reasons, particularly in terms of epic destinies. I'd say the big picture differences between this and a paladin are:

- Tactics (mainly stunning blow, but also trip)
- Legendary Dreadnought, as opposed to paladins which will likely be Divine Crusader
- Heavier reliance on action boosts

That's pretty much it, but that's enough of a flavor difference for me to justify two character slots. Another reason you already touched on, which is to give a fighter past life, is a minor consideration at best.

So its taking the Fighter slot in your stable? It is better at keeping it self alive then a 20 Fighter and the spells do offer an interesting alternative to the 12/6/2 splits.

[EllisDee37]

My current (third) life on this build is level 6 right now; I'm going to get to 9 to try out ameliorating strike at low levels to see how worthwhile it is before making any enhancement changes.

After being delayed by eTRing my paladin and redoing the tempest trapmonkey build, I finally got back to level 9 on this guy and I'm absolutely loving it to death. The PRR/MRR changes really help take the edge off the low saves, and getting ameliorating strike by level 9 is pure win.

I've now redone the build, which involved nothing but a few minor changes to enhancements. So it should be an easy swap if you're in the middle of leveling. The specific enhancement changes are as follows:

• Drop improved recovery II and one of the extra dragonmarks from human (save 3 AP)
• Drop third inflame energy absorption and add tier 4 strength from warpriest (spend 1 AP)
• Drop overbalance and add strong defense III (+6 str!) from stalwart (spend 2 AP)

I'm pleased with how little needed to change from the original version of the build. I take this as a sign of a stable build. The order, however, is radically changed, moving ameliorating strike up from level 17 to 9. That's a huge improvement.

I also finally added the "General Use" and "Gear" posts at the top of the thread, with the same format as the tempest trapmonkey thread. Plus, taking Grailhawk's valid point to heart I rewrote the introductory narrative in the OP. Not that the old narrative needs to be preserved for any reason, but just for my personal edification I'm copying it here in case I want to refer back to it.

This THF frontline melee build happens to be new player friendly -- despite that not being one of the design goals -- with no tomes or pay classes/races required.

The genesis of the build was sparked by a discussion on paladins, where it was said that a 14/6 fighter/fvs would make a better paladin than an actual paladin due to having better dps and heals. I took the idea and ran with it, eventually settling on 12/8 fighter/cleric to get deathward, fom and better heals. I originally rolled up the character before the enhancement pass and it was super fun to play. Now with the introduction of the warpriest tree I think it's ready to post. Compared to a paladin build, this will have better dps, viable tactics in the form of stunning blow, but weaker heals and much lower saves.

No tomes are required or listed. If you happen to have a +2 int tome put the extra skill points into Balance or Jump. 28pt versions will need to grab a +1 strength tome at level 23 in order to qualify for Overwhelming Critical, but any epic character can easily afford to buy a +1 tome off the ah.

Alignment doesn't matter. In general True Neutral is best because it takes the least amount of damage from mobs. However, you might consider Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good if you want to freely wield True Chaos and/or Pure Good weapons without a umd check.

Human is preferred for the extra skill points and DDoor clickie. If you want to go with a different race, drop the dragonmark and sacrifice the heal skill. Ideally use a +2 int tome by level 7 to minimize the shortfall, but it should work even without an int tome. Non-humans get 12 AP to play with in either their racial tree or the various class trees.

The level 21 feat is player's choice; take whatever feat you like there. I recommend either Improved Sunder, Bulwark of Defense, Quicken or Toughness, but none of them are pivotal to the build so any feat you like is fine. Heck, even Skill Focus: UMD might be worth considering. Take Overwhelming Critical @ 21 if you qualify and push the player's choice feat back to 24.

Oh, that reminds me, I changed the "player's choice" feat to Great Strength, and moved it to 24 now that Overwhelming Critical is easily qualified for at 21. I also added a note about precision to the OP. Precision is in all likelihood out of reach for a new player on this build, but I felt it was worth pointing out how to fit it in if you want it.

I'm really enjoying this build, much more than I expected after running my paladin for so long. It's just crazy fun. Next up on my to-do list is to update the evasion paladin thread.

[Nodoze]

...I finally got back to level 9 on this guy and I'm absolutely loving it to death. The PRR/MRR changes really help take the edge off the low saves, and getting ameliorating strike by level 9 is pure win.

...

I'm really enjoying this build, much more than I expected after running my paladin for so long. It's just crazy fun. Next up on my to-do list is to update the evasion paladin thread.

Thanks for the update. If you level it back up into the epics please post back your experiences post U23 with the build.

[mna]

Celestial Champion stacks w/everything, inc. Keen Edge and Swashbuckling, AFAIK. Keen Edge & Swashbuckling are both competence bonuses, so they only stack if you use, say, kukris or rapiers: +1 crit multiplier from Swashbucking, +1 crit range from Keen Edge (effectively duplicating Holy Sword). So I was thinking ftr 12 / cleric or FvS 5 / bard 3: that gets you Keen Edge, Swashbuckling, Power Surge, Skaldic Rage, Div Might, Ameliorating Strike.

Hey, that'd be an interesting one actually... how'd you say about the level ordering and feats? (Of course then there's the stat distribution and... hm, what do you actually need to make this viable? I wonder if it'd work as a 28-pointer...)



Can't do FvS quite yet myself, but now I at least have enough content open to be able to get that 2500 favor. I'm not even past 1750 on all that many...

[EllisDee37]

Thanks for the update. If you level it back up into the epics please post back your experiences post U23 with the build.

I got back up to epics this week, and so far the U23 changes are a significant boost to this build's power and survivability.

As a heavy armor wearer in stance I get lots of PRR/MRR, plus an extra +6 strength from stance that makes up for the +5 strength from primal scream back when I didn't use stance.

The melee power and blitz changes make this guy way more fun to play. Before I would nervously charge up blitz with the first 10 mobs in a quest and then frantically run to maintain it the whole way through. This was acceptable on quests I know well, but was pretty unfun for exploring new quests or running optionals. Now I'm not bothering to use blitz until boss fights. When I get to higher level content (currently running the 24s) I might try for blitz on the trash, but I won't be stressing out about the old feeling of losing blitz turning me into a declawed kitten.

I'm pretty sure a pure paladin is better in every way, but I don't actually care about having the best build. For this build, U23 was a significant upgrade. I'm even considering trying out some low level EE quests for the first time, though right now I'm still getting a feel for how champions shake. So far they're amounting to nothing more than speed bumps on EH, at least through the first MotU pack, druid's deep and high road.

MRR is a huge boon for this guy, shoring up his one major weakness.

[eachna_gislin]

I got back up to epics this week, and so far the U23 changes are a significant boost to this build's power and survivability.

It's a little funny, I'm finding my character less powerful since the changes to paladins. Since "everyone" is grinding out paladin lives, or still trying out all the changes, I find I kill a lot less than I used to. Technically she's the same power level but others have gotten more powerful around her.

My first life was over a year ago, and this toon was consistently one of the top killers in PUGs. Her second, and now third life, she lags a little behind bards and paladins. She's still very fun to play, and is only a little more fragile than a paladin (I notice the lack of Sealed Soul).

For her third life I decided to try the build as a TWF Khopesh user (she has Rad II's in the bank). TWF eats a couple extra feats, and I took elf (for the Displacement dragonmark), which eats one more. Her greensteel has come out and I think the slower build in power is about to pay off. She has a bit of Dex, perma-Blur (gear), Ghostly, and occasional Displacement.

Running through three of these lives has been a long haul. I TR _very_ irregularly. But it's given me a way to run a character meant to be a Paladin through three Fighter lives for the Tactics boost, and make use of (nearly) every item in her cache.

Thank you Ellis, for posting this build (and all your builds). I've learned a great deal about the fundamentals of character building by going through these posts.

[EllisDee37]

Sounds fun; I like the concept of elf for displacement + TWF greensteel. At least the fighter levels give you lots of feats, heh. And thanks much for the kind works, I appreciate it.

As for the nerf-by-proxy, now you can empathize with Cetus when he switched from a 12/6/2 fighter/monk/pally to a pure paladin.

[eachna_gislin]

Sounds fun; I like the concept of elf for displacement + TWF greensteel. At least the fighter levels give you lots of feats, heh. And thanks much for the kind works, I appreciate it.

As for the nerf-by-proxy, now you can empathize with Cetus when he switched from a 12/6/2 fighter/monk/pally to a pure paladin.

At level 18, I'm rolling in displacements . 4 from DM. 2 from Smoke belt. 5 from Ellocator's Habilliment. The latter seemed to be a good fit with this build. I get my Dex bonus and extra jump, and Resistance.

DPS is much better now that I have all TWF feats, including Greater. It's not where it could be, but as a trial run after playing a two-handed fighter for three lives I'm happy with it.

[Ninaran]

Hey everyone, took quite a looong break from DDO and returning now, I remember using this guide to create a character and now I'm just wondering if any big updates happened that made this build unplayable? Or is it still good to go?

[EllisDee37]

Hey everyone, took quite a looong break from DDO and returning now, I remember using this guide to create a character and now I'm just wondering if any big updates happened that made this build unplayable? Or is it still good to go?

There have been big changes but I've kept this build updated for them.

Those changes made pure paladin a better option, but this build is current and good to go.

[Ninaran]

There have been big changes but I've kept this build updated for them.

Those changes made pure paladin a better option, but this build is current and good to go.

Awesome, thank you for that.

[IIVIIotha]

I tried your build its pretty solid ! i like it you right it is not build for high solo ee content but i always try and fail most of the time haha but hey! im having fun lol i modified a little the enhancements and some feat as well like i din't take ptwf or blinding speed ohh and i went helf instead! i took the pally dilly for some saves but din t even bother on spending ap on the helf tree lol btw its not really max buffed like im missing some +11 items and all the + 5, 6 tomes what eva i really like it !

Stunning blow almost never fail, chilling whit 3 cleaves and momentung swing, healing myself, always haste and damage boosted man i love it !

[EllisDee37]

Very cool. I always forget that helf can take the human tree cores.

One tip that isn't part of the build in the OP (but probably should be) is that I think Action Surge considers Power Surge an action boost, meaning for 3 AP you can get +3 strength for 11+ minutes per shrine.