Cleric Version of Warpriest: Turns vs spellpoints to power Divine Might

[eachna_gislin]

As the saying goes, Favored Soul warpriests don't have a horse in this race. They don't have turn abilities. I'm 100% behind turbine giving Favored Souls a way to pay for Divine Might and using spellpoints to do it (since Favored Souls have those in abundance). And I would still be interested in any feedback players who prefer Favored Souls might have. That said, this is still a topic about CLERIC warpriests and I would hope those who respond would keep that in mind.

I'm really unhappy with the change to Divine Might for cleric warpriests. As it stood on Live before the enhancement pass, clerics had a version of Divine Might that was powered by their turn undead charges. Paladins still have a version on Live that works the same way (powered by paladin turns). On Live, Clerics and Favored Souls both have a version in the Protection tree that is powered by spellpoints, and that is shown to continue in the preview of the Warpriest tree. I can see 'why' this change was made. Turbine wanted to simplify their work load and give both clerics and favored souls a shared melee tree. Favored Souls don't have charges of turn undead, and so they needed a currency to pay for the power.

However, I feel the currency to pay for Divine Might for clerics warpriests should continue to be charges of Turn Undead. Right now, Turn Undead is fairly close to "useless". Very few cleric players value it. Some well-geared multi-TR players enjoy the benefits of using it in heroic levels but that's reasonably rare. This is not the fault of players (who are generally happy to mash any clicky or button that will allow them to eliminate opposition). This is the fault of Turbine's development team. Rather than investing development efforts in making Turning be more desirable, a past group of devs chose to use turns under the older enhancement system as a way to pay useful for secondary powers.

Cleric (and paladin) players were generally happy with this system. Radiant clerics used them to pay for bursts and auras. Battle clerics who didn't take the Radiant prestige could spend them on Divine Might, and battle clerics who DID take the Radiant prestige would have regenerating turns and could use them for Auras AND Divine Might. Paladins (of course) had nothing else on which to spend them.

This could be seen as a "win-win" situation for everyone. The devs were spared putting extra time into making the actual act of turning undead interesting and viable, healing clerics could heal more easily, battle clerics could potentially do more damage or heal or both.

Now, Protection clerics (and eventually Warpriest clerics) will have to pay for Divine Might with spellpoints. This is *not* a win-win situation for clerics.

Warpriests (defined as those who take tier 5 powers) still have nothing else on which to spend their turns.
Divine Disciples or Radiant Servants (defined as those who take a tier 5 power in their respective trees) can both better afford to spend turns than spellpoints on Divine Might if they want to dabble in melee, because they have other spells to cast (heals, buffs, offensive spells, CC, etc).
Radiant Servants can be expected to take the enhancement that makes their turns regenerate...because it's intrinsically useful to the burst and aura powers.
Divine Disciples only have Divine Vitality to compete with Divine Might on which to spend their turns and are likely to have little interest in both.
If they want, both Warpriests and Divine Disciples can afford to take the enhancement that makes their turns regenerate because it's only tier 4 and doesn't lock them out of the tier 5s in their respective prestiges.

All three prestiges can better spend their spellpoints on other "things".

Some cleric warpriests might protest that they don't have 'enough' turns to pay for Divine Might, given the short duration.

Point for point, a cleric using turns to power Divine Might is better off putting stat points into charisma over strength. Because...

1) Divine Might is a SLA. It can't be dispelled or drained or "taken away" from you. Turns can't be dispelled or taken away from you either.
2) Divine Might has no upper limit on the Charisma modifier that can be applied to your strength and that modifier works exactly like having that larger Strength total. Among other things it applies to combat tactics checks, strength-based skill checks, and strength tests (lever pulls, etc.)
3) The higher your Charisma modifier, the more turns you have to pay for Divine Might.
4) Again, you have nothing else on which to spend your turns. If you *do* find another use for your turns, there's a tier 4 enhancement in a useful tree (Radiant Servant) that gives you unlimited (via recharging) turns.
5) Charisma is valuable in its own right. It modifies Haggle, Diplomacy/Intimidate, and the beloved Use Magical Device (among others).
6) Charisma is rarely a target of stat damage.
7) Specific to epic levels, the Unyielding Sentinal combat destiny provides another cheap way to both increase the number and recharge turns, *and* you can use it to gain up to six additional points of epic charisma.

That is the beauty of elegant system design.

I'm going to sneak in a 8th one.
8) Warpriests don't "need" to worry about high casting DCs and maximum spell slots, which opens up splashing other classes. Paladins get full martial weapon proficiency (something denied to Warpriests) and some other tasty abilities. With two levels of paladin you get access to Divine Grace. This lets you add your charisma modifier to all your saving throws. This means for each two stat points of Charisma you have you *could* increase your Strength, increase all three saving throws, and increase your Turns at the same time. You would lose out on the 2 free feats/tower shield proficiency from splashing fighter, or 2 free feats/stances and evasion from splashing Monk. But it's a viable option.

Making clerics pay spellpoints for Divine Might makes that elegant design trip and fall on its face. Spellpoints on a warpriest are a valuable currency (unlike the cheaply valued turns). Because they have to pay for strength, constitution, and charisma, their wisdom (the source of their spellpoint pool) will be lower than on a caster cleric. Because they're more likely to splash other classes (to make up for other shortfalls in the prestige) they can have an even smaller spellpoint pool. When grouping, they're still going to be expected to cast buffs and provide at least some party healing, which will drain their spellpoint pools further. Because warpriests will likely be in the thick of melee (unless playing archers) whatever spells they do cast will likely "need" Quicken (an extra spellpoint expense). Divine Disciples will have the largest potential spellpoint pools of any cleric prestige. Both Radiant Servants and Divine Disciples pay for their Kewl Powerz with an unwanted currency (turns). Divine Disciples have Divine Vitality (turn based). Radiant Servants have Divine Cleansing, bursts and auras (turn based). Warpriests are the cleric prestige that can least afford to pay spellpoints for their "Divine" power and the only prestige required to do so.

This change was very clearly only put into place because clerics are sharing this warpriest prestige with favored souls. If it was some sort of balance change, the other cleric "Divine" powers would cost spell points. Favored Souls get double the spell points of clerics. Additionally, their spellpoint pool is based on their Charisma, not their Wisdom. That means a warpriest favored soul gets to increase their Divine Might currency for each point put into Charisma, while a cleric warpriest decreases their Divine Might currency for each point put into Charisma (instead of Wisdom).

The "fix" is fairly simple. The code to use turns to pay for Divine Might is already in the game for Paladins. Just give cleric warpriests the paladin Divine Might and Favored Souls the Protection tree Divine Might presently being used on Live.

[Silverleafeon]

Using spell points instead of turns allows battle clerics to dump CHA, something they might like to do.
Farm a bauble?

Right now, Turn Undead is fairly close to "useless". Very few cleric players value it..

Are you sure about that?

What about using 11 action points in the Radiant Servant Tree?

1 here
Healing Domain: For each action point spent in this tree, you gain 0.5 Universal Spell Power and 1 Positive Energy Spell Power. (These stack, effectively giving 1.5 Positive Spell Power per point)
AP Cost: 1 Progression: 0 Requires: Cleric 1

3 here
Extra Turning: +1/+2/+3 Turn Undead per rest.
AP Cost: 1 Progression: 1 No requirements

6 here
Bliss: When you use a Turn Attempt for any reason, you gain 3/4/5 Temporary Hit Points for each Healing Core Ability you possess.
AP Cost: 2 Progression: 1 No requirements

1 here (but leave it turned off)
Pacifism: Toggle: You gain 25 Positive Energy Spell Power and 3% Positive Energy Spell Critical Chance, but have -50 Spell Power and cannot critically hit with other spell damage types, and deal -1[W] damage.
AP Cost: 1 Progression: 5 Requires: Cleric 3, Healing Domain

1 here
Positive Energy Burst: You gain +1% Positive Energy Spell Critical Chance.
Channel Divinity: A wave of positive energy that expands from the caster, healing 1d8 plus 1 per Cleric level to all nearby allies, as well as removing 1d4 negative levels and 1d6 points of ability damage. Undead are instead damaged by the energy, taking 1d8 points of damage per Cleric level - a successful Will save reduces the damage by half. (Metamagic: Empower, Empower Heal, Maximize, Quicken. Spell Resistance: Yes)

AP Cost: 1 Progression: 10 Requires: Cleric level 6, Pacifism

[voodoogroves]

I'd prefer to see it require Turn Undead in both trees (for all channel divinity things)

I'd like an option to GAIN turn undead in some of the trees, such that a FVS could spend the points on that (similar to US).

[guardianx2009]

This is silly.

1. Turn Undead is not useless.
It works tremendously in all EH content, (even in EH FoT), and in some EE content.

2. Divine Might using SP is actually better than using up turns.
If using Divine Might is causing you SP issues, you have bigger problems.

[danotmano1998]

Right now, Turn Undead is fairly close to "useless".

Uh.. no.
Radiant Servant Aura
Radiant Burst

[EllisDee37]

Using spell points instead of turns allows battle clerics to dump CHA, something they might like to do.
Farm a bauble?

Wait, I'm confused. The OP is asking to switch Divine Might from spell points to turns, and your response is that keeping it spell points allows dumping CHA? Erm, that doesn't compute. If you dump CHA, why do you care about Divine Might at all?

Are you sure about that?

[lists a bunch of enhancements that are powered by turns]

Uh.. no.
Radiant Servant Aura
Radiant Burst

Guys, that was his whole point. The actual effect of Turn Undead, as in, target an undead and hit Turn Undead, is what he's calling useless. He says that the way the devs responded to turning being useless is to create enhancements that use turns to activate, like Aura and Burst, and that's what gives turns their value for clerics now.

He was very clear about this.


guardian disagrees about the utility of turning, even in EE, and I have to be honest he's got me curious.

[guardianx2009]

guardian disagrees about the utility of turning, even in EE, and I have to be honest he's got me curious.

Yes. Most "spawned" trash mobs in EE (ie: mobs that come back as undead after you kill them, or summoned by a mob necromancer) have CRs in the 30-40 range. Some even lower. Those mobs can be turned easily. Undead Drow Necromancers in particular, are an example.

[eachna_gislin]

Yes. Most "spawned" trash mobs in EE (ie: mobs that come back as undead after you kill them, or summoned by a mob necromancer) have CRs in the 30-40 range. Some even lower. Those mobs can be turned easily. Undead Drow Necromancers in particular, are an example.

You suggest EE undead are CR 30-40. Lets average that to 35.

As described in the Turn Undead feat, the Turn check is: "roll 1 twenty-sided die + your total Charisma modifier". So, at best, 20 + Charisma Mod. My 13 base charisma level 26 EE raid cleric with tomes and gear has a 28 Charisma. That's +9 to her turn check. On a natural 20, she hits 29.

Without special gear or enhancements, even on a natural 20 she fails.

She has a Gauntlets of Eternity with Eternal Faith. That gives +2 to her Turn check. I think she has 3 points in the Improved Turning enhancement which gives another +3 to her Turn Check. This is a total of +14

On a *natural 20*, she can reach 33. Even on a natural 20, she can't reach the "average" DC of the EE undead. On a 16-20 she can pick off a few of the weakest undead. If she rolls that well and I'm lucky enough to be near the lower level ones.

There are some feats as well. Clerics with 3 cleric past lives, or those who are running in Normal or Hard content (heroic and epic), as well as those who can afford to stack Charisma higher all will do better than my cleric. The new +10/+11 items will also help. But turning is something you have to build for, just like healing or melee or DC casting in the hardest content. Most cleric players don't bother.

The *majority* of cleric players don't use their Turn Undead counts for turning. As illustrated in the posts above, the same majority of people who responded to what I had to say --that failed their reading comprehension checks-- said "You're wrong, Turn Undead counts are too useful ... because they pay for the other useful Cleric powers". *Most* of them didn't say they used their turn undead counts --to turn undead--. I'm going to guess people misunderstood my primary premise because of the length of the wall of text they had to slog through. Ellis clearly understood it. Maybe Ellis has more intestinal fortitude against rambling.

Here's my point: The majority of cleric players value turns for what other, NON-TURNING powers they can spend them on. I would like Warpriests able to spend their turns on their "Divine" powers just like the other clerics get to do. It puts all clerics on a level statting field, with a consistent currency for their special powers.

[guardianx2009]

You suggest EE undead are CR 30-40. Lets average that to 35.

As described in the Turn Undead feat, the Turn check is: "roll 1 twenty-sided die + your total Charisma modifier". So, at best, 20 + Charisma Mod. My 13 base charisma level 26 EE raid cleric with tomes and gear has a 28 Charisma. That's +9 to her turn check. On a natural 20, she hits 29.

I read this and pretty much stopped. All I'm going to say is you are dead wrong. Do some research, learn how Turn Undead works first.

I can pretty much no-fail turn CR35 mobs. Undead trash in EE FoT are CR42, I've succeeded in turning them also.. though at ~50-60% success rate.

[Silverleafeon]

A recent update significantly lowered the CR of epic undead.
This was done to ensure that turn undead is still effective.



Even dumping CHA you can get a significant score.
Either one of these is a small investment in cha
08~12 starting stat +4 tome +7 augment +1 true blood +2 ship = 22 ~ 26 cha
Sometimes you want you build points elsewhere like Str, Con, and Dex?

[EllisDee37]

I read this and pretty much stopped. All I'm going to say is you are dead wrong. Do some research, learn how Turn Undead works first.

I can pretty much no-fail turn CR35 mobs. Undead trash in EE FoT are CR42, I've succeeded in turning them also.. though at ~50-60% success rate.

I'm getting more and more curious. Before this thread I did not know the mechanics behind turning, so I've read up on wiki. Let me see if I have this right now:

First you roll a d20 and add it to cha mod, then compare this number to a table. Let's say our cha mod is 9, meaning the minimum result of this roll is 10. According to the table, a 10 means you get your cleric level for turning. The maximum (if you roll a mere 13 or higher) means cleric level + 4. Okay, so now we're looking at a 4-point range for turn checks, with cleric level being the lowest to 4 points higher than that, hitting the highest value a pleasing 40% of the time.

Let's say a pure 20 cleric in exalted angel. That's a base cleric level of 25.

Let's cast the Seek Eternal Rest spell, which is a perfectly acceptable investment. That adds 4, so now we're at 29.

Let's assume fully regenerating turns. That's improved turning III as a prereq, which brings us to 32.

Since we're trying to actually turn, let's slot an Eternal Rest item. Surely we can spare a single item slot for an ability we're actively pursuing, yes? That adds 2 more levels, for a total of 34.

Let's NOT spend a feat on improved turning, which only adds 1 level and hey, clerics want their feats for other things. Our base cleric level remains 34.

Let's NOT assume cleric past lives, which add +2 (wow!) per life stackable up to 3 times, YET. But let's definitely keep this in mind as a viable way to improve it. +6 from 3 past lives could be quite nice...

The initial cha roll (with +9 cha mod) gives us a minimum of our cleric level, which is now 34, up to a maximum of cleric level+4, which would be 38.

Okay, so cleric level for the first turning check is 34-38 with a reasonable investment. Do I have that right?

Does this mean that if we take the "kill instead of turn" enhancement, we'll kill any undead in the area that have a CR below 34-38? I'm unclear what the "maximum hit dice" mechanic is or how it works.

[EllisDee37]

If I have that initial roll right, here's how that d20 shakes out for a +9 cha mod:

1-3: Cleric Level
4-6: Cleric Level + 1
7-9: Cleric Level + 2
10-12: Cleric Level + 3
13-20: Cleric Level + 4

The expected average would be Cleric Level + 2.5.

I'm really curious now because my cleric is a) pure 20 cleric, b) in exalted angel, c) is already wearing an eternal rest item (gauntlets of immortality), d) has 1 cleric past life already, e) has a +8 cha mod right now, and f) has improved turning III to get max regeneration of turns.

From the sound of it, right now, with no changes (except casting Seek Eternal Rest) I should be able to turn EE undead with pretty good effectiveness. And I never even tried!

EDIT: OMG, Seek Eternal Rest is a level 2 spell (easy to slot) that lasts 1 minute per caster level!

[silinteresting]

is there any chance of getting a break down on max
turn undead?

what is possible to achieve and can i turn everything?

are there enough undead in game to make a build just to turn undead?

ok im off to the wiki, i need to understand this more.

your friend sil

[guardianx2009]

Let's say a pure 20 cleric in exalted angel. That's a base cleric level of 25.

Let's cast the Seek Eternal Rest spell, which is a perfectly acceptable investment. That adds 4, so now we're at 29.

Let's assume fully regenerating turns. That's improved turning III as a prereq, which brings us to 32.

Since we're trying to actually turn, let's slot an Eternal Rest item. Surely we can spare a single item slot for an ability we're actively pursuing, yes? That adds 2 more levels, for a total of 34.

Let's NOT spend a feat on improved turning, which only adds 1 level and hey, clerics want their feats for other things. Our base cleric level remains 34.

Let's NOT assume cleric past lives, which add +2 (wow!) per life stackable up to 3 times, YET. But let's definitely keep this in mind as a viable way to improve it. +6 from 3 past lives could be quite nice...

The initial cha roll (with +9 cha mod) gives us a minimum of our cleric level, which is now 34, up to a maximum of cleric level+4, which would be 38.

Okay, so cleric level for the first turning check is 34-38 with a reasonable investment. Do I have that right?

Does this mean that if we take the "kill instead of turn" enhancement, we'll kill any undead in the area that have a CR below 34-38? I'm unclear what the "maximum hit dice" mechanic is or how it works.

You almost have it right.
Except for the starting cleric level 25. Unless they changed it recently, epic levels, in particular EA destiny do not increase cleric level for Turn Undead.
An Eternal Faith item grants a total of +4 cleric levels, not +2 (it's +2 in two sub categories, totaling +4)
The radiant servant TOD ring set grants +3(!!) stacking cleric levels.

As you are starting to see, it is cleric levels that determines how high a CR you can turn, not CHA.. And each point in CL is a significant increase.

I have two cleric past lives and max, I can hit is 42CR without feat investment. Taking one more PL will give me almost no fail turn on CR42.

[eachna_gislin]

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Charononus]

OP

you want divine might with turns.
you want to splash 2 pally.

there is a very simple solution to your problem that requires no dev time.

[EllisDee37]

I read the feat. Regardless on whether I understand how it works, I have tested it out. I have tried turning undead in EN, EH, and EE content and I can barely manage it in EN. Hard is spotty. EE is basically impossible.

This does not match my experience trying it out in EH FOT.

I will say that without Mighty Turning, successfully turning undead seems kind of pointless, and almost appears to be a failed attempt.

Your gear and build as described should be pretty darn good at turning if you cast seek eternal rest and spend 2 ap on mighty turning.

[eachna_gislin]

I read this and pretty much stopped. All I'm going to say is you are dead wrong. Do some research, learn how Turn Undead works first.

I can pretty much no-fail turn CR35 mobs. Undead trash in EE FoT are CR42, I've succeeded in turning them also.. though at ~50-60% success rate.

I read the feat, I didn't realize I was expected to read the wiki to find that the feat text was missing the part where they use the turn check from PnP. So there we go...I admit I was wrong in how I interpreted the skill to work based on reading the feat text. Regardless of how little time I spend each day reading the wiki, I have tested turning out. I have tried turning undead in EN, EH, and EE content and I can barely manage it in EN. A little while after Menace of the Underdark debuted I spent weeks running from one end of Eveningstar to the other trying to turn with my Token of the Faithful. EH was spotty. EE was impossible.

Checking the thread you're the same person who thinks it's reasonable for a lowbie cleric to spend 15-21 spellpoints to cast a short term buff. According to you, if a low level cleric can't afford it it's not too expensive...it's because they have "other problems" (an implication that they can't manage their spellpoints).

Frankly, you're arguing from the cushy perspective of end game play with fully geared multi-TR characters (whether or not turning is useful in endgame, whether or not you're using rare ML 18 level gear, how much your 2 cleric past lives matter). Enhancements are used throughout the whole game, but they're balanced for heroic levels. Start up an ungeared Protection cleric on a new server and see how long your attitude lasts. Heck, even take a fresh cleric TR (one without any sp-boosting past lives) and toss a vibrant purple ioun stone on them. That +200 sp doesn't last long with crippled positive spellpower.

Turning is situation-ally useful at low levels, but not all quests need to burn the turns. If a Warpriest could spend their turns on their Divine Might, they could decide...do I want to use Divine Might or do I want to turn? It's not as if spending spellpoints is optional in the same way as deciding if you wanted to turn undead is for a cleric. Divine Might is a first tier enhancement, so it should have been priced in such a way that low level clerics can afford to cast it. Are there any other First tier powers that cost 21 spell points to use? By having to spend spellpoints low level clerics are going to have trouble affording the cost to use the power.

I don't think the devs have an interest in hurting clerics, but I do think they can be bad at their jobs. Warpriest is a badly designed tree. They made changes already and some of those are for the better. But it still poorly constructed and it still lacks synergy. Charging cleric Warpriests spellpoints instead of turns to use Divine Might is one poor design choice among several in the tree.

A recent update significantly lowered the CR of epic undead.
This was done to ensure that turn undead is still effective.


Even dumping CHA you can get a significant score.
Either one of these is a small investment in cha
08~12 starting stat +4 tome +7 augment +1 true blood +2 ship = 22 ~ 26 cha
Sometimes you want you build points elsewhere like Str, Con, and Dex?

I don't doubt that I can do better with my charisma and I don't count ship shrines, yugo pots, and other buffs when listing stats. My personal standard is: if I can die and lose it, I don't depend on it. I try to work from the lowest my stat can end up being, rather than the highest, so that I can only do better than I expect. That means yes, my Charisma is actually higher when I'm out and about.

Your comment that a recent update changed undead CR is interesting...do you happen to know when that was? I did a lot of experiments on turning a couple months after MotU launched and I haven't been actively working on it since. I've been trying to farm up a Radiant ToD set and been unlucky. I was going to go back to it after I got the ring on any of my toons. I did try a run last night through the EE King's Forest PDK favor farming and nothing in the graveyard quest either crouched or exploded. I could have just been very very unlucky, but I didn't see anything to indicate it was behaving any differently than in the past.

[eachna_gislin]

This does not match my experience trying it out in EH FOT.

I will say that without Mighty Turning, successfully turning undead seems kind of pointless, and almost appears to be a failed attempt.

Your gear and build as described should be pretty darn good at turning if you cast seek eternal rest and spend 2 ap on mighty turning.

Is mighty turning the "make undead explode" enhancement? I have it. I have all the turning enhancements maxed except I don't have the recharging turns. Turn increases is where I spent most of my ap to get the radiant burst.

I may be doing something wrong...but it's not that hard to cast a spell when buffing and then click on a button when I want to use the power. I'm assuming I should target at least one undead before activating turn undead and I should be reasonably close to them. I'm not (for example) trying to turn from across the room.

Again...I have +9 Charisma mod (as well as any temporary buffs). It's correct that I wasn't counting Seek Eternal Rest but I do have it and use it. I have Gauntlets of Immortality and I also have a Token of the Faithful (they don't stack but I do sometimes switch out of my gauntlets and I carry a backup item with the same power).

I also have a third level cleric due to hit 4th and she can turn (although she doesn't have the exploding enhancement). OTOH, while it makes decent crowd control I don't find it THAT useful because I really need a way to kill them faster, not just scare them. I have been using her to test the Protection tree on live. I suppose I could respec her to Radiant for the short term and see how she plays on a run through Catacombs. What I've learned playing her is that Divine Might is just too expensive. A lowbie cleric can't afford the casting cost in Protection, and it's not going to be any better once Warpriest goes live.

[BFD20001]

Two points: First, FvS should NOT have access to War Priest; second, Divine Might should use Turns either way.

If a FvS did get access to War Priest (Disastrous Dev fiat) then there are ways for the FvS to gain Turns if they want to use Divine Might.

(This has the additional advantage of protecting the Protection PrE/Domain/Tree)