Multiclassing Reasoning Explaination?

[Tenebris-Niatellim]

I want to know how exactly people reason out what feats to take at what level and especially what class they level in at certain levels. I.E rogue lvl 1 and rogue at lvl 8 etc. Basically the question comes from the reasoning why at lvl 1 and 8 and not 1 and 2?

That is just a example. I want to know the overall reasoning behind why people take X bard levels at lvls A B C, then X rogue levels at D,E,F and X Barabarian levels at G, H, I etc etc.

So what is the reasoning for taking
Rogue levels at certain levels
Fighter levels
Barbarian levels
Ranger levels...

you get the picture.

[Soulfurnace]

Rogue at level 1 for max skill points, then 6 levels (typically for prestiges before enhancement pass), then 1 rogue for evasion. Not as important now, unless you want given feats/spells (ranger, sorc, etc)

Bard is typically a low priority, meaning people will take (say) /2 fighter when they reach the BAB for an ability that's good (GTWF, IC: [Weapon], etc)

Barb - at 1 for run speed. Other than that, typically low priority, unless it's for BaB (in which case go fighter)

Ranger - earlier the better, because it grants feats. ([X]TWF, Manyshot, IPS, etc)

[mezzorco]

Also, if you want to max out a skill.

Let's say fighter/rogue build, 10 int. You want max umd, disable, open, search, spot (it's only an example).
If you take all rogue levels early, you waste skill points on skills you don't need, and when you take fighter levels you can't max out all skills you want.
So, you could delay rogue levels until you have enough "backlog" skills to stuff your points into.

[Alfhild]

Classes like fighter and monk grant bonus feats in the early levels.
Certain feats come with prerequisites which cannot be met are earlier levels.
Some combat feats require a certain BAB (Base Attack Bonus).
Some feats require a stat be a minimum level which may not be met at L1, but may be met later with stat tomes.
If you take these classes too early you may not meat the prereqs of feats you want to take and therefore potentially are forced to spend the feat on something you do not want.
Also some feats have prereqs that can only met after a certain class level.
If I design a build with 8 levels of Ranger because I want the empowered healing feat which is only available to a L8 Ranger, I want to make sure I have taken those 8 levels by level 18 so I can use the L18 feat slot. Were I to leave L8 Ranger to L20 character, I can only take Empowered Healing at the Epic levels which would mean potentially not taking Epic feats I might want.
This would also apply to Monk splashes wanting to take the more advanced monk stances.

[kuro_zero]

There are a number of reasons for taking xX Class at Y Level and many times it depends on the class being taken that determines what fits where. There is no universal 18X/2Y where Y is taken as Level A and Level B - it all depends on the classes/build goals aimed for.

Which is why it is never recommended to multi-class unless planned in advance. There are alot of interacting mechanics that can be messed up with sloppy MC such as BAB/Feat/Tome requirements, auto granted feats, bonus feat sub-lists, skill points, etc. It can get very complicated but one is often rewarded for well planned multiclass synergies.

[Inoukchuk]

Rogue at level 1 for max skill points, then 6 levels (typically for prestiges before enhancement pass), then 1 rogue for evasion. Not as important now, unless you want given feats/spells (ranger, sorc, etc)

Bard is typically a low priority, meaning people will take (say) /2 fighter when they reach the BAB for an ability that's good (GTWF, IC: [Weapon], etc)

Barb - at 1 for run speed. Other than that, typically low priority, unless it's for BaB (in which case go fighter)

Ranger - earlier the better, because it grants feats. ([X]TWF, Manyshot, IPS, etc)

Furthermore, unlike fighter bonus feats the ranger feats are predetermined (rather than chosen) and bypass pre-reqs. So if you are making a toon, for example, that wants greater TWF and you plan on having 6 ranger levels, you need those levels to come BEFORE you grab GTWF from level or fighter feats.

And a lot of it comes to down maximizing something at level 20 (like taking rogue at 1 and 8 or ranger levels early), and then the rest is usually determined by wanting some things as early as possible (like 2 monk/rogue levels for evasion), and then you have to balance those as best you can which is the tricky part of a multi-class toon.

[Tenebris-Niatellim]

Then can anyone post notable multi class levels? I.E a 5th fighter level at X level is ideal for this. It would be nice for future reference when I'm confident I can plan out a toon, or for others who want to as well.

[unbongwah]

Then can anyone post notable multi class levels?

Too numerous to list them all. And the U19 Enhancement revamp renders a lot of the old build advice obsolete - or at least in need of updating. A lot of builds were based around the PrE "break points" - i.e., class lvls 6, 12, and 18; and while those still exist, there's also a lvl 3 core enhancement and the tiered abilities mostly only require 1-5 class lvls. [There are some "gotchas," though, like needing ftr lvl 8 to take Greater Weapon Focus for some of the T4 & T5 Kensei abilities.] So there's a lot more opportunity for unique multiclass combos, outside of the old 18 / 2 and 12 / 6 / 2 builds which were so prevalent.

[Alfhild]

As unbongwah mentioned there are too many options here because there are too many permutations with all the other classes. Even with well established splashes there is variability.

I would suggest bookmarking this thread and checking it periodically:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/194531
once these fine folks release the new character planner you can download it and play around with designing your own builds.

[mezzorco]

Then can anyone post notable multi class levels? I.E a 5th fighter level at X level is ideal for this. It would be nice for future reference when I'm confident I can plan out a toon, or for others who want to as well.

If there is no other meaningful advantage in starting with a class or another, at first level I take the class with most skill points, because of x4 multiplier. If not all skills are class skills for that class, at second level I take the class that unlocks them (if applicable).

Often though, there IS a meaningful advantage in starting with a given class.

[Inoukchuk]

Then can anyone post notable multi class levels? I.E a 5th fighter level at X level is ideal for this. It would be nice for future reference when I'm confident I can plan out a toon, or for others who want to as well.

This is strictly build-by-build. For instance, if I want to build a fighter-ranger-monk I would assemble a list of feats I want, then try to order them in the levels I want them, then see which if any of those feats I get from classes. In this case only a few of those feats, like power attack, are available from monk, so I would need to take my monk levels pretty early since PA is a pre-req for other feats I want to take early also. And ranger auto-grants TWF (and ITWF at 6th), so I may want to get my ranger levels early also and save fighter for last. Another build that splashes fighter for feats, like a bard with fighter splash, may want the fighter levels early instead of last to get the weapon proficiencies and feats. So it's not really as simple as saying "your fighter levels should come at 2 and 3" or some such, as it's all relative to the rest of the build.

[FuzzyDuck81]

So many possibilities now, but a small list of notable splashes off the top of my head:

2-4 favoured soul - for shiradi evoker types, this will let you get Scourge & Just Reward (2 levels required) which will boost spellpower for fire/light/physical/force & give temp SPs on a crit, as well as some crit line. Up to 4 levels mainly for increased crit lines. Also lets you take Empower Healing as a metamagic feat, can be handy for dragonmarked halflings or anyone planning to rely on rejuvenation cocoon for selfhealing in epic levels.

1 wiz - a feat, some wand proficiencies, 1st tier SLA... have this on my own caster druid for the extra metamagic feat plus Shield SLA to absorb annoying magic/force missiles.

2 rogue - evasion, skills, maybe some staff use

1 ranger - becoming a great splash for anyone who casts divine spells for access to the empathy enhancements in DWS tree to boost positive spellpower

2 fighter - 2 feats, a couple of tiers of nice kensei enhancements

2-4 monk - 2 levels grants 2 feats, evasion, access to forms (higher tiers can be taken with feats) for centered kensei, other useful enhancements... 3 levels means FoL & 1st 2 core abilities in the ninja spy tree combined with kensei can make ANY slashing/piercing weapon dex based while centered, 4th for 4th tier enhancements.

[FrostedMoon]

Hi, I'm sorry to ask but how does one do the multiclass, if the answer's already elsewhere please point it out to me I got 3 days looking for it, sorry again,

[enochiancub]

Hi, I'm sorry to ask but how does one do the multiclass, if the answer's already elsewhere please point it out to me I got 3 days looking for it, sorry again,

When you're ready to level, just speak to the class trainer of the new class level you want to take.

Example: If you start as a Rogue and want to start taking Monk levels, talk to the Monk trainer when it's time to level up.

[EllisDee37]

There are four main reasons to time specific levels:

1) Feats (both granted and free)
2) Skills
3) Spells
4) Enhancements

Regarding feats, let's go with some examples:

Consider a TWF build who splashes 2 ranger. The second ranger level grants TWF for free, and you really want that before actually equipping two weapons, so you'd want to time the second ranger level to coincide with when you switch from THF to TWF. This is typically around level 4.

Any build who splashes 2 monk or 2 rogue for evasion will want evasion early, but it's not overly useful super early. Around level 5 quests is when the traps start getting annoying enough to want to evade, so level 7 (when you start running level 5 elites) is a rough approximation for "ideal" time to take your second rogue or monk level.

Improved Critical requires a BAB of 8, so melees who splash a fighter level are often drawn to making level 8 a fighter level in order to get a bonus feat so they can take improved crit at 8 instead of having to wait until 9. However, if they're only splashing a single fighter level they probably want it earlier than 8 for various reasons. If you have 2 or more fighter levels, putting one of them at level 8 is worth considering.


For skills, some classes are flush with skills like rogue, ranger and bard. The most obvious choice is level 1, where you get 4x the skill points so you'll want to take the class with the most skills at level 1. If you max out a skill with 4 ranks at level 1, you only get to put a single rank in it on level 2 so if you take your second high-skill class level at 2 you're not going to get as much value out of it. The idea is to space out the high skill levels with low skill levels in between so you can "catch up" in ranks. Combined with the evasion idea mentioned above, this makes taking the 2 rogue levels in an 18/2 build @ 1 & 7 pretty attractive.


Spells are the easiest to understand of all. Consider wizard, who gets firewall at level 7. In my 18/2 wizard/rogue build I take 1 rogue, then 7 wizard levels (race to firewall), then the second rogue for evasion at 9. In this case, firewall > evasion.


Enhancements are generally the least important reason for level order but they still play a role. If all other things are equal, plan your level order to get the cool enhancements earlier.

[FrostedMoon]

When you're ready to level, just speak to the class trainer of the new class level you want to take.

Example: If you start as a Rogue and want to start taking Monk levels, talk to the Monk trainer when it's time to level up.

Oh ok thank you much kind sir *bows*

[Charononus]

There are four main reasons to time specific levels:

1) Feats (both granted and free)
2) Skills
3) Spells
4) Enhancements

Regarding feats, let's go with some examples:

Consider a TWF build who splashes 2 ranger. The second ranger level grants TWF for free, and you really want that before actually equipping two weapons, so you'd want to time the second ranger level to coincide with when you switch from THF to TWF. This is typically around level 4.

Any build who splashes 2 monk or 2 rogue for evasion will want evasion early, but it's not overly useful super early. Around level 5 quests is when the traps start getting annoying enough to want to evade, so level 7 (when you start running level 5 elites) is a rough approximation for "ideal" time to take your second rogue or monk level.

Improved Critical requires a BAB of 8, so melees who splash a fighter level are often drawn to making level 8 a fighter level in order to get a bonus feat so they can take improved crit at 8 instead of having to wait until 9. However, if they're only splashing a single fighter level they probably want it earlier than 8 for various reasons. If you have 2 or more fighter levels, putting one of them at level 8 is worth considering.


For skills, some classes are flush with skills like rogue, ranger and bard. The most obvious choice is level 1, where you get 4x the skill points so you'll want to take the class with the most skills at level 1. If you max out a skill with 4 ranks at level 1, you only get to put a single rank in it on level 2 so if you take your second high-skill class level at 2 you're not going to get as much value out of it. The idea is to space out the high skill levels with low skill levels in between so you can "catch up" in ranks. Combined with the evasion idea mentioned above, this makes taking the 2 rogue levels in an 18/2 build @ 1 & 7 pretty attractive.


Spells are the easiest to understand of all. Consider wizard, who gets firewall at level 7. In my 18/2 wizard/rogue build I take 1 rogue, then 7 wizard levels (race to firewall), then the second rogue for evasion at 9. In this case, firewall > evasion.


Enhancements are generally the least important reason for level order but they still play a role. If all other things are equal, plan your level order to get the cool enhancements earlier.

Thought I'd add on to this.

If your split involves a melee animal form druid you want to take the 9 druid levels as quickly as possible with all 9 druid levels by level 12 at the latest so that you can use the feats at 12,15,18 for natural fighting.