The Ginsu - a new TWF build concept

[Inoukchuk]

I had a 12 rng / 8 ftr tempest last life that I really enjoyed, so I started checking to see if the build, or something similar, would be viable now after the ENH pass. So far, this is what I've come up with:

12 Fighter / 6 ranger / 2 monk - Human
The point: this build will combine the bonus damage and crit range from Kensei with the major bonuses from tempest, and stay centered to twist Dance of Flowers. The net results should be high str, good tactics for stunning blow, high damage (+8 to hit and damage from enhancements and +3[W] at all times from dance + imp power attack, extra threat range)

Stats:
Str - 18
Dex - 15
Con - 16
Int - 8
Wis - 10

Cha - 8

Progression: R-MM-RRRRR-FFFFFFFFFFFF

Feats:
1) Khopesh (and Bow Str, FE)
1H) stunning blow
2M) PA
3) Cleave
3M) Dodge (and evasion)
4) (rapid shot, TWF)
5) (die hard)
6) GC (and precise shot)
7) (FE)
8) (manyshot, ITWF)
9) IC: slashing
9F) PBS
10F) WF: slashing
12) GTWF
12F) WS: slashing
14) zen archery
15) Adept of Forms
16F) GWF
18) Master of Forms
18F) Imp precise shot
20F) GWS: Slashing
21) OC
24) OTWF or imp sunder

*edited to remove IC: ranged, CE, imp trip, imp sunder to make room from GWF (pre-reqs), adept of forms and master of forms. With +5 int tome could swap back to CE and imp trip if your stunning blow becomes lackluster*

Revised enhancements:

Tempest(22):
1 - Shield of whirling steel
1 - tempest
8 - whirling blades (1-4)
3 - improved reaction
6 - improved parry
3 - improved dodge

Kensei(33):

1 - kensei focus
1 - spiritual bond
1 - strike with no thought
1 - power surge
8 - weapon group specialization (1-4)
3 - action boost haste
2 - exotic weapon mastery
6 - tactics III
2 - weapon meditation (pre-req)
4 - Str II
1 - shattering strike I
1 - keen edge
1 - deadly strike
1 - one with the blade

DWS (6)
1 - far shot
3 - increased empathy
2 - versatile empathy

Human (8):
1 - vers
2 - str
3 - action surge
2 - imp recovery I

Ninja Spy (11):
1 - ninja training
2 - sneak attack training
3 - acrobatic
2 - fists of iron
3 - agility

OR

Shintao (11):
1 - bastion of purity
6 - deft strikes
2 - fists of iron
2 - reed in the wind


*still considering more pts in human for imp rec III (and possibly GH), but don't know where to take it from*

I won't get into equipment since that's all likely to change before I build this with all the new good random loot gen stuff. Figure by level 24 I have 60ish STR (+8 surge). Tactics with loot + twist should be 63 (67 trip) with surge running. Damage bonuses would be 43ish not counting other gear/weapons/FE/etc, and with drow khopesh would be 5[1d8] 13-20/x3.

Optionally swap out khopesh for another feat of your choice (quick draw maybe) and switch to Balizardes (4.5[1d10] 13-20/x3) at epic levels.

Thoughts?

[mezzorco]

It should be noted that your build as you posted it is 36pt.

[EllisDee37]

There's a lot to like in this build. Thumb's up!

I don't see Greater Weapon Focus in your feat list. That's a prereq of Keen Edge's prereq, so you're gonna have to fit it in if you want Keen Edge.

It should be noted that your build as you posted it is 36pt.

It converts to 32pt easily enough by scaling the starting con down from 16 to 14.


EDIT: I misread the level split thinking you were still doing the 12 ranger variant. Removed my "you get GTWF and Improved Precise Shot for free with the 11th ranger level" comments.)

[Inoukchuk]

There's a lot to like in this build. Thumb's up!

I don't see Greater Weapon Focus in your feat list. That's a prereq of Keen Edge's prereq, so you're gonna have to fit it in if you want Keen Edge.

It converts to 32pt easily enough by scaling the starting con down from 16 to 14.


EDIT: I misread the level split thinking you were still doing the 12 ranger variant. Removed my "you get GTWF and Improved Precise Shot for free with the 11th ranger level" comments.)

Thanks, and good catch! I missed that pre-req somehow. I'd be inclined to drop Imp Sunder and Imp Crit:ranged for it and shuffle around the feat order a bit, though it may work out better to drop CE and Imp Trip.

[Wipey]

Looks like you going with pyjamas, spend two feats for earth 3 for some con and another crit multi on 19-20 ?
Magical training for blue bar and echoes perhaps.
Also kensei-ed Balizarde crits on 13 ( so would drow khop ) .

[Teh_Troll]

I did the same thing but human, went heavy-blades to focus on using nightmares to kill CR70+ trash very fast. The DPS is outstanding, it's a complete "hjeal meh" build but good to have when you really need to kill stuff fast.

Messing around with Cacoon and DWS spell power, seems to be viable when you have to heal yourself.

[Inoukchuk]

I did the same thing but human, went heavy-blades to focus on using nightmares to kill CR70+ trash very fast. The DPS is outstanding, it's a complete "hjeal meh" build but good to have when you really need to kill stuff fast.

Messing around with Cacoon and DWS spell power, seems to be viable when you have to heal yourself.

Nice to know =)

On review I see that the tier 5 Kensei stuff only requires FTR level 5 (character level 12), so I think you could make almost the exact same build as 12 ranger / 6 ftr and gain cure moderate and a few other ranger spells I found useful last life and 6 caster levels to boost them. It's mostly out of combat healing, but adds a lot of solo-ability / self reliance. You could likely even go 11 ranger / 8 ftr / 1 monk since you no longer need evasion from monk, but I don't see the benefit to it. You'd lose power surge and a feat (3 feats, but you pick up GTWF and IPS for free), which you could dump PBS since it's no longer needed as a pre-req. So, option A gives you power boost for more damage and better tactics, option B gives you more self reliance / survivability.


Anyone know anything about the Empathic Healing from DWS? Could always make room for it somehow for some healing also.

[EllisDee37]

On review I see that the tier 5 Kensei stuff only requires FTR level 5 (character level 12)

They have a feat prereq (Greater Weapon Focus) that requires Fighter level 8. One of the hidden "gotcha"s of the new enhancements.

[unbongwah]

They have a feat prereq (Greater Weapon Focus) that requires Fighter level 8. One of the hidden "gotcha"s of the new enhancements.

See also: paladins being able to get Divine Might at lvl 2, even though they don't get Turn Undead (which is still necessary to power DM) until lvl 4. Almost got me with that one... "Swell" play balancing!

[rimble]

See also: paladins being able to get Divine Might at lvl 2, even though they don't get Turn Undead (which is still necessary to power DM) until lvl 4. Almost got me with that one... "Swell" play balancing!

You could, at least, fix that with Epic Destinies that grant the Turn Undead feat. I don't think there's any backup plan for requiring GWF.

[Inoukchuk]

Looks like you going with pyjamas, spend two feats for earth 3 for some con and another crit multi on 19-20 ?
Magical training for blue bar and echoes perhaps.
Also kensei-ed Balizarde crits on 13 ( so would drow khop ) .

Does it multiply with imp crit now? I know the old kensei only added 1, so 15-20 became 14-20 rather than 13-20. If they changed that then... sweet!

The monk stuff.... I'm frankly confused by. I didn't see any stances in the ehancements anymore, were they changed to auto-grant feats now or something? My current (paly) build has 2 monk and I saw nothing in any Enh trees that gave me stances, but I keep hearing about the great things monk stances grant you now?

[Teh_Troll]

Stances are feats.

[Inoukchuk]

See also: paladins being able to get Divine Might at lvl 2, even though they don't get Turn Undead (which is still necessary to power DM) until lvl 4. Almost got me with that one... "Swell" play balancing!

Ahh, right... I guess the original build is the right one then.
*edit* and the 11/8/1 split now makes sense also.

[Inoukchuk]

Stances are feats.

Really? I can't find anything about this in the wiki. No feats, nothing in release notes, nada. Are they free feats granted to monks or do you have to pay for (spend feats on) them now (which screws monks). If free, are they autogrant, or do I have to go back and LR to get them?

[rimble]

Really? I can't find anything about this in the wiki. No feats, nothing in release notes, nada. Are they free feats granted to monks or do you have to pay for (spend feats on) them now (which screws monks). If free, are they autogrant, or do I have to go back and LR to get them?

Monks get them for free at 6, 12, and 18. I think you'll have to use your LR+20 to pick them up for free on an existing Monk (would be nice if someone who knows for sure could confirm). Others can take them as regular Feats, as long as they have one level of Monk. Hence the load of Fighter/Ranger/Monks you're gonna start seeing...

[Inoukchuk]

Monks get them for free at 6, 12, and 18. I think you'll have to use your LR+20 to pick them up for free on an existing Monk (would be nice if someone who knows for sure could confirm). Others can take them as regular Feats, as long as they have one level of Monk. Hence the load of Fighter/Ranger/Monks you're gonna start seeing...

Aha! Thanks much!

[Crann]

...Others can take them as regular Feats, as long as they have one level of Monk. Hence the load of Fighter/Ranger/Monks you're gonna start seeing...

I was wondering about that also, I am using my previous free LR to modify a 8 fighter/6 Ranger/ 2 Monk who was to be a Helf's Angel. I am able to select "Adept of Forms" and "Master of Forms" but not Grandmaster. It is only listing Master and monk level 1 as prerequisites for Grandmaster, but it is greyed out.

[Fennario]

I was wondering about that also, I am using my previous free LR to modify a 8 fighter/6 Ranger/ 2 Monk who was to be a Helf's Angel. I am able to select "Adept of Forms" and "Master of Forms" but not Grandmaster. It is only listing Master and monk level 1 as prerequisites for Grandmaster, but it is greyed out.

You do indeed only need 1 monk level to take all of the forms up to grandmaster. However, you must be the correct character level to take them. You must be level 6 for adept, 12 for master, and 18 for grandmaster.

So I am guessing that the reason you are seeing grandmaster greyed out is that you are trying to take it before level 18.

[RavenStormclaw]

See also: paladins being able to get Divine Might at lvl 2, even though they don't get Turn Undead (which is still necessary to power DM) until lvl 4. Almost got me with that one... "Swell" play balancing!

divine might is powered by spell points now..at least the cleric and FvS versions are...I haven't checked the paladin version yet.

[PurpleTimb]

divine might is powered by spell points now..at least the cleric and FvS versions are...I haven't checked the paladin version yet.

In a sane world where things make sense you'd be able to assume that if the cleric version worked on SP and the favored soul version worked on SP then OF COURSE the paladin version would work the same way.

Alas, this is DDO.