Shiradi Shuricannon

[Tilomere]

No you really cannot get away without raids or challenges in my opinion. All the necessary gear is from those sources. You cannot build an epic viable thrower without spelltouched, greensteel and/or thunderforged shuriken and the most necessary offhand weapons (Rebellion, Celestia, Thunderforged) also come from raids. Above level 20 you will not get far with only a Shadow Star, a Snowstar and Treason or at least i think you will not have much fun.

I agree they won't let the crit stack, just wishful thinking.

The Morning Star isn't bad. The EE one is still a level 27 blue shuriken with a red slot. It may not be godly, but it certainly is decent.

[jakeelala]

For some people UMD seems to be a must-have. I'm not one of them. And i still don't think you need it or even can get it high enough to make good use of it on this build. It is a bit of a paradox if you need GH to have a better chance to cast GH scrolls.

For GH i have a Planar Gird and a Draconic Necklace, for True Seeing i switch in a yellow Planar Focus and with the high reflex save i never missed being able to cast fireshield which i think is too short-lived cast from a scroll anyway. If i need FoM i switch in Kundarak Delving Boots. Never missed using heal scroll between fights since i have the Fast Healing epic past life feat but if it really was necessary that's what monks have the free 'Healing Ki' feat for (which should fully heal you with a high WIS) or you simply throw in a quick cocoon. So far i never had a single quest where i used up my spellpoint pool and had to drink a potion or use a bauble.

Maybe it's also because i'm not fond of switching lots of items back and forth during a quest and fill my inventory space with scrolls. But to each his own. If i could reach a high enough UMD to cast no-fail Raise scrolls without switching an item then i would probably go for it but so far i do well enough with my Ring of the Ancestors and my Triple Pos GS shuriken and i will probably leave UMD for Completionists with some Artificer Past lifes and a UMD skill tome from the store.

If you really want to go that way though i think you can also take skillpoints from Move Silently if you don't use it that much. And another good thing to boost your UMD is the Epic Martial Past Life feat 'Skill Mastery' which gives you +3 to all skills which you can turn on and off in favor of 'Brace' as you need it. Of course yugo pots and store pots help with UMD too. Keep in Mind that for a bound +6 CHA shard you need 150 arcane crafting skill (which i do not have on my crafter).

I have no idea though why you want to use Cacophonic Verge in epics at all except maybe to break some boxes and even then you will not be centered anymore if you switch it in. Or did i miss any hidden effects on it? My Sorc has one but surely never uses it in epic content.

If you're missing out on Tensors full-time from Scroll or enhancements you are missing out on a SIGNIFICANT source of DPS.

UMD is very important in that case.

[Firewall]

If you're missing out on Tensors full-time from Scroll or enhancements you are missing out on a SIGNIFICANT source of DPS.

UMD is very important in that case.

Full time Tensors? If i may quote you from another source you said that with Tensors scrolls you 'would have been lucky to manage 70%, realistically'.

And it also looks like you completely missed my point. In post #404 i said people who can easily reach 40 UMD for Heal scrolls, Tensor scrolls and whatnot might as well go for it. It just is not something for *me*.

I always said i don't like to switch gear, like to have few buttons to press, don't like to have my inventory crowded with stacks of scrolls and don't have a character with triple completionist past lifes. So since i cannot reasonably reach that UMD threshold permanently it makes no sense for me to aim for it only to be able to use Tensors scrolls with casting failure since i already have the other buffs as clickies or on gear. The shuricannon is built for my playstyle and i go for DPS as much as survivability and convenience so this build is not optimized for max DPS but for myself. And since i suppose 99% of the shuricannon users cannot reach a permanent UMD of 40 like me i will not change the build to encourage it. I reasonably think the 1% of the powergamers who have an easy time reaching that threshold are experienced enough to modify the build according to their needs.

[bruener]

Been having a quick play with this (was looking for something different and this fitted ) but I do have a couple of quick questions (apologies in advance if they are covered more fully in the thread, but 20 plus pages makes it a little tricky to find the exact answer)

One of the things that surprised me most was carrying something in the off hand. Aside from combat feat bonus (ie trip stun etc) I was under the impression that weapon effects only applies to the weapon that was doing the hitting. From what I can gather, from the information in the thread, this is not the case with thrown weapons. Is there a (more or less) exhaustive list of what effects DO carry over to your thrown weapon? I know elemental and other damage effects don't but what about crippling etc (I gather deception does- Correct?)

Finally, can I get away without having raid/challenge loot? I can craft more or less anything from Cannith Crafting (my boredom threshold was much higher then). I accept it's not optimal (do have a couple of pieces from a long time ago - Treason amongst them) but I heartily dislike raiding and as for the challenges.... put it this way - I'll step foot in the shroud three weeks after never, and start the challenges a couple of weeks after that

Many thanks

I crafted a Kama with tendon slice and seeker for my off hand. Works great so far. Being someone who never bothered with crafting or challenges, I had to bite the bullet on both for this build and I think without them this build would be kind of meh. Shurikens in this game suck. But with crafting you can make pretty much whatever you need. Granted no smiting, disrupting or banishing. But you can craft greater constuct, undead and elemental bane as I have to get by. As far as running shroud it isn't mandatory but a trip positive shuriken at lvl 12 is quite nice. But like I said, craft a holy burst of greater undead bane and get my ok.

[jakeelala]

Full time Tensors? If i may quote you from another source you said that with Tensors scrolls you 'would have been lucky to manage 70%, realistically'.

And it also looks like you completely missed my point. In post #404 i said people who can easily reach 40 UMD for Heal scrolls, Tensor scrolls and whatnot might as well go for it. It just is not something for *me*.

I always said i don't like to switch gear, like to have few buttons to press, don't like to have my inventory crowded with stacks of scrolls and don't have a character with triple completionist past lifes. So since i cannot reasonably reach that UMD threshold permanently it makes no sense for me to aim for it only to be able to use Tensors scrolls with casting failure since i already have the other buffs as clickies or on gear. The shuricannon is built for my playstyle and i go for DPS as much as survivability and convenience so this build is not optimized for max DPS but for myself. And since i suppose 99% of the shuricannon users cannot reach a permanent UMD of 40 like me i will not change the build to encourage it. I reasonably think the 1% of the powergamers who have an easy time reaching that threshold are experienced enough to modify the build according to their needs.

It's not about easily reaching 40 UMD.

The benefit of tensors is massive. The ability to use a heal scroll is an ok perk but not really the point. That's four stacking dex 1 minute at a time. That's close to a 10% DPS increase.

You don't think that's worth building for?

[Firewall]

It's not about easily reaching 40 UMD.

The benefit of tensors is massive. The ability to use a heal scroll is an ok perk but not really the point. That's four stacking dex 1 minute at a time. That's close to a 10% DPS increase.

You don't think that's worth building for?

It's an 8% chance to throw another shuriken, +2 damage and a low increase in attack speed. That's not necessarily 10% DPS. I let others do the math on that.
What is important to me is this buff only lasts for 66 seconds so i would have to cast it every minute and i already loose DPS from switching gear, casting the spell and switching my normal gear back in place. It is even more impractical if you have to recast it during a fight. It costs me money and an inventory slot (actually two if i need an item to even get my UMD remotely close) and time to restock on scrolls every few quests if you try to keep it up constantly.

And since you didn't seem to get my point again: The biggest thing about it is simply that you cannot reach 40 UMD reliably on a build without Artificer Past lifes, Completionist feat, UMD Skill tomes, Store and/or Yugo pots, Skill Mastery epic past life feat, a high CHA tome and whatever else. So if you only have something like a 60% chance to cast it while jumping and running around with a scroll in your main hand and an switched-in UMD item in another slot in the middle of a fight it costs you even more time and is annoying at best. Thats the absolute main reason i don't go for it.
And as i also said i'm currently working on my epic completionist so i'm almost never at level 28 which would be necessary to even get close to the 40 points that you need.

With this build i can solo everything on EE that i like. The shuricannon is good enough without that small bit of additional DPS and i will gladly sacrifice the DPS from Tensers for my convenience and the fact that the only thing i have to worry about in a fight is pushing my 10k stars button. I know store pots and yugo pots boost DPS too but still i don't use them and i don't need or miss them. And why would i? To kill a mob 2 seconds faster? My build can get the job done without it and i don't try to break zerg records.

So the answer is YES - for ME (and i think 99% of the playerbase too) it is not worth building for since i cannot get a high enough UMD that it is convenient enough for me to use it. Your character and your playstyle might be different so if you want Tensers and/or UMD with this build and can reach a satisfying value feel free to go for it. I agree it surely is a nice boost if you can aquire it at your convenience.

[EllisDee37]

And since you didn't seem to get my point again: The biggest thing about it is simply that you cannot reach 40 UMD reliably on a build without Artificer Past lifes, Completionist feat, UMD Skill tomes, Store and/or Yugo pots, Skill Mastery epic past life feat, a high CHA tome and whatever else.

You keep saying this, but it's important to point out that it's you personally who can't hit 39 UMD. The build can hit it just fine.

11 ranks
6 greensteel cha skills (comes with a stacking 100 spell points for cocoon)
3 persuasion
8 epic levels
2 good luck
4 greater heroism
5 charisma mod (20 charisma = 10 base +8 item +2 tome)
---
39 umd = no-fail tensor's, heal and (of course) teleport

Note how not one thing you mentioned is in this list. No umd skill tome. No artie past lives. No completionist. No store or yugo pots. No skill mastery epic past life feat. No high cha tome. None of it, and 39 is still achievable by the build.

I get that you personally can't hit it because you don't stay 28, but you are misleading people by stating that it can't be done. The build can do it easily.

Think of it this way: If you're saying UMD isn't viable because you keep epic TRing, then logically you should also be saying that thunderforged weapons aren't viable for this build either because they have too high ML. Think of UMD (ie: Tensor's) as part of the same "package" that includes thunderforged throwers.

So the answer is YES - for ME (and i think 99% of the playerbase too) it is not worth building for since i cannot get a high enough UMD that it is convenient enough for me to use it.

I think you have the %s backwards. I think it's worth it for 99% of the playerbase. I think you're part of the 1%.

[Firewall]

You keep saying this, but it's important to point out that it's you personally who can't hit 39 UMD. The build can hit it just fine.

11 ranks
6 greensteel cha skills (comes with a stacking 100 spell points for cocoon)
3 persuasion
8 epic levels
2 good luck
4 greater heroism
5 charisma mod (20 charisma = 10 base +8 item +2 tome)
---
39 umd = no-fail tensor's, heal and (of course) teleport

Note how not one thing you mentioned is in this list. No umd skill tome. No artie past lives. No completionist. No store or yugo pots. No skill mastery epic past life feat. No high cha tome. None of it, and 39 is still achievable by the build.

I get that you personally can't hit it because you don't stay 28, but you are misleading people by stating that it can't be done. The build can do it easily.

Think of it this way: If you're saying UMD isn't viable because you keep epic TRing, then logically you should also be saying that thunderforged weapons aren't viable for this build either because they have too high ML. Think of UMD (ie: Tensor's) as part of the same "package" that includes thunderforged throwers.

I think you have the %s backwards. I think it's worth it for 99% of the playerbase. I think you're part of the 1%.

You are right and i emphasized it many times in my last posts (for example read the last lines in post #426 where you quoted only one sentence out of context from!) that it is ME PERSONALLY that i'm referring to. I never said it is not achievable and i never said it might not be a viable option for other people. Quite the contrary. I said that it is not convenient and easily achievable for ME. And i also think that is true for a lot of other people if you read the posts in this thread carefully where there are many players asking questions that want to do this as a first- or second-life build. Check the videos of Spencerian and you will see that he is no powergamer too.

So where is your problem?

In your list you have a +8 CHA item (or augment which i would have to buy for turbine points in the store) that i cannot fit permanently into my gearset (except if i would drop something else), a GS CHA skill item that i would have to craft only for that purpose and a +3 Persuasion item (does Persuasion even stack with GS CHA skill?) that i would have to craft by Cannith crafting (these items fall under 'whatever else' in the sentence you quoted from me). Including the scroll itself that would be three to four items that i would have to switch back and forth every minute to keep Tensers going during fights. That is no reasonable option for me just for a short-time damage boost and especially not during a fight. And that is also three to four inventory slots i have to fill just for this purpose and i would not want to miss any of the items or augment slots in my permanent gearset so far to exchange them permanently for UMD or CHA increasing items. For ME PERSONALLY the effort is too high and annoying for the short-time benefit Tensors provides. I prefer to have a build with one lazy button to press and have a good time with it. Why is that so hard to understand?

Leave me to my playstyle and i leave you to yours. As i already said: Anybody else feel free to go for UMD if you like the benefits of it and can get your skill high enough to make use of it.

[Cardtrick]

does Persuasion even stack with GS CHA skill?

Yes. Persuasion is a competence bonus. It stacks with the exceptional bonus from greensteel. It also stacks with the relatively rare enhancement bonus from the epic crystal cove spyglass or the big top. It does not stack with other competence bonuses, like the Command enchantment or the various straight UMD bonuses on equipment like the Golden Cartouche or the Flameward.

Not arguing with you or anyone else, just answering a mechanics question in a thread that a lot of newer players look at.

[jakeelala]

You take Monk Capstone for 2 Dex and 5 Damage/Shuriken.

But you think a modest investment in UMD for +4 Stacking Dex (more valuable than +2 Dex and Vorpal Shurikens BTW but I don't want to tear down your build) is too much?

This is a little over the top.

[Firewall]

You take Monk Capstone for 2 Dex and 5 Damage/Shuriken.

But you think a modest investment in UMD for +4 Stacking Dex (more valuable than +2 Dex and Vorpal Shurikens BTW but I don't want to tear down your build) is too much?

This is a little over the top.

Yes...since for me it is more than a modest investment and simply contradicts my playstyle. Your bonus is only a temporary one and takes switching gear and time to activate and keep going which makes it quite a lot less valuable for me. If i could have the UMD permanently that high without sacrificing or switching gear and simply use a Tensers scroll that would likely be a different issue.

The Ninja Spy capstone is permanently active (which is exactly what this is all about) and will hopefully soon add the enhanced crit range too which will benefit the build in multiple other ways. And also you get other bonuses by going pure monk so this falls conveniently into place without much thinking about it. (btw i thought you like to have permanent bonuses over temporary ones too by building for perma Tensers instead of scrolling it again and again with your other build? That was your own argument at least for choosing a bit less DPS by going that way)

I have no idea why you try so hard to push me in that direction and cannot simply accept that people have different preferences, playstyles and resources. I don't want to convince you that you stop skilling UMD and use Tensers either. Play the game however you like to do and accept that i do the same.

[Caprice]

Adding fuel to the fire: I guess I am also one of the "1%", like Firewall. I agree that UMD is an excellent addition to the build, and well worth pursuing for anyone who cares to, but for me personally I am not that interested. I think you probably can fit the gear into your default setup so swapping gear isn't necessary, but just the process of swapping in a scroll, casting it, and swapping the shuriken back in is going to be at best a couple percentage points of increase in sustained DPS and may even be break even. You will get higher bursts of DPS, and since you are not in combat constantly this means that it is definitely a net gain to do so, but it is a slight hassle as well. The hassle is probably worth it generally but I can't get excited by it. I am more interested in UMD for using teleport scrolls as needed than for combat.

I'd quibble about 99% of players building around UMD, though. 99% of EE soloists, almost certainly, and 99% of EE group players, highly likely. But 99% of players? I'd be shocked.

[Sleek1]

Count me in the 1% as well. The build is already strong enough for me to run most everything on EE, and Hell, I have even been soloing FoT, granted, it takes me almost an hour to do it but I'm doing it :-) Call me lazy, but I'm happier concentrating on my kiting and ensuring all the good little mobs stay in a perfect line than I am having to worry about watching for my Tensers to run out and then switching gear, casting a scroll, getting my gear switched back, and then going back to my kiting. Maybe some day I will change my mind, but today is not that day :-)

[jakeelala]

Adding fuel to the fire: I guess I am also one of the "1%", like Firewall. I agree that UMD is an excellent addition to the build, and well worth pursuing for anyone who cares to, but for me personally I am not that interested. I think you probably can fit the gear into your default setup so swapping gear isn't necessary, but just the process of swapping in a scroll, casting it, and swapping the shuriken back in is going to be at best a couple percentage points of increase in sustained DPS and may even be break even. You will get higher bursts of DPS, and since you are not in combat constantly this means that it is definitely a net gain to do so, but it is a slight hassle as well. The hassle is probably worth it generally but I can't get excited by it. I am more interested in UMD for using teleport scrolls as needed than for combat.

I'd quibble about 99% of players building around UMD, though. 99% of EE soloists, almost certainly, and 99% of EE group players, highly likely. But 99% of players? I'd be shocked.

This is why it's a natural progression to make a build with full time Tensors to increase your DPS. Unless and until they fix Monk Capstone.

[EllisDee37]

So where is your problem?

My only problem is that you repeatedly frame it as if UMD simply can't work for the build. Even with your many disclaimers about being just about you, your phrasing very much implies that it simply can't work with the build at all.

As an example, with bolding and underlining by you:

And since you didn't seem to get my point again: The biggest thing about it is simply that you cannot reach 40 UMD reliably on a build without Artificer Past lifes, Completionist feat, UMD Skill tomes, Store and/or Yugo pots, Skill Mastery epic past life feat, a high CHA tome and whatever else.

This is highly misleading and incorrect, and there's no disclaimer about this assertion being only about your playstyle. This is clearly stating that the build simply cannot achieve meaningful UMD without extreme grind/effort.

That's what I'm objecting to. It's quite easy to get effective UMD on this (or any) build. I totally get that the hassle is a dealbreaker for many. Hell, I personally don't use tensor's on any of my melees despite all of them having 40+ UMD because 1-minute buffs are a major hassle even if they're native spells/clickies. (My kensei's Power Surge, for example.) If you have to switch to a scroll every minute, that would drive me insane. So I totally get it.

But you're doing a disservice to newer players with your loud (bolded, underlined) proclamations that UMD is simply not attainable in any reasonable way. It most certainly is attainable without too much effort.

[EllisDee37]

On another topic, this build may be one of the few that gets a real, tangible benefit out of a crystal cove healing flask. Tons of grind, sure, but a nice bit of healing.

I think I might roll mine up ahead of schedule just to be sure he gets a flask during this week's cove event.

[Firewall]

UMD surely can work for the build. And the disclaimer to the sentence you quoted comes at the end of the post so that's what you did not quote.

The point where we have different opinions on is how high of an effort you have to invest to get a 40 UMD. I think especially for new players already crafting a Tier 3 greensteel item just for the purpose of getting +6 CHA skills is very much of a grind. Especially since the build can make better use of Triple positive shuriken or Mineral II or a permanent Blur item which i would definately prioritize. And the other thing is that this item will only give you a benefit at (or near) level 28 since only in high epic levels you get the skill high enough to use the interesting scrolls and i would not advise anyone to spend all that grinding for materials for an item that is only useful in endgame for some temporary buffs. And switching three or four items around everytime to be able to cast a scroll is not a very usable solution to me either.

But anyway...we need not necessarily agree on this one and i think people reading this can build their own opinions on if they think it is worth the effort or not.

@Bottomless Flask of Rum: Yes i have one of those but i rarely use it for healing because of the 5 minute cooldown. It is good for emergencies but i usually save it to get rid of stat damage or a negative level. In that regard it is very useful since stat damage can become really annoying.

[EllisDee37]

crafting a Tier 3 greensteel item just for the purpose of getting +6 CHA skills is very much of a grind.

I was more thinking along the lines of getting 100 stacking spell points for cocoon from the same effect that gives +6 cha skills. Something like this, which gives 25 hp, 100 sp, +6 umd, +4 dex skills and a displacement clickie. Lacking the smoke effect makes it super cheap, which is nice for newer players. (2 LDS, 3 large stones.)

@Bottomless Flask of Rum: Yes i have one of those but i rarely use it for healing because of the 5 minute cooldown. It is good for emergencies but i usually save it to get rid of stat damage or a negative level. In that regard it is very useful since stat damage can become really annoying.

Does it work for that? I thought they were bugged and only gave positive healing power but none of the "extras" you normally get from the heal spell. Like, does it remove poison?

(I generally carry restoration scrolls, so it's mostly moot for me. Just curious.)

[Blackheartox]

I was more thinking along the lines of getting 100 stacking spell points for cocoon from the same effect that gives +6 cha skills. Something like this, which gives 25 hp, 100 sp, +6 umd, +4 dex skills and a displacement clickie. Lacking the smoke effect makes it super cheap, which is nice for newer players. (2 LDS, 3 large stones.)

Does it work for that? I thought they were bugged and only gave positive healing power but none of the "extras" you normally get from the heal spell. Like, does it remove poison?

(I generally carry restoration scrolls, so it's mostly moot for me. Just curious.)

But, restoration scrolls require umd.

O wait...

Nvm..

Heal flask shares cd with fom flask, not worth it imo.
Easier to resto scroll and also heal flask doesnt remove all neg levels either, only 1, adding in the fact that you need horribly huge amp to get any valuable hp back from it, its one of those cool at first sight but garbage when you actualy look at it when you calculate time needed to get it.

[Nodoze]

I guess I am in the 1% also. I have 6 accounts and 40+ characters and there is no way I am going to grind green-steel, cove spyglass, etc for some transient bonus that requires a lot of effort to maintain. The min/maxing isn't important enough to me to focus on and I have too many builds and not enough time for all of them... If I ever truly decided on a single "main" and this was the "one" that I really wanted to focus on and it was critical to the effectiveness of the build then maybe I would do the grind... Unless it is required to me it is a Quality of Life decision (QoL) from two perspectives:

- Too much effort grind to get;
- Too much effort/swapping to maintain once gotten;

That being said it is certainly doable and valid to point out and may even add a boost overall to the DPS (but, from the videos, maybe isn't needed).

One word of warning is that a big part of the playstyle is kiting and situational awareness and, at least for me, a rhythm is very helpful me in that dance... For me the risk of trying to do all that swapping wouldn't be worth it nor really fun. I do say that from experience on my Artificer and my AA both which have UMD & play similarly and I don't like swapping there either even when I can easily hit the UMD (at least on my Artie)...