Shiradi Shuricannon

[Firewall]

For some people UMD seems to be a must-have. I'm not one of them. And i still don't think you need it or even can get it high enough to make good use of it on this build. It is a bit of a paradox if you need GH to have a better chance to cast GH scrolls.

For GH i have a Planar Gird and a Draconic Necklace, for True Seeing i switch in a yellow Planar Focus and with the high reflex save i never missed being able to cast fireshield which i think is too short-lived cast from a scroll anyway. If i need FoM i switch in Kundarak Delving Boots. Never missed using heal scroll between fights since i have the Fast Healing epic past life feat but if it really was necessary that's what monks have the free 'Healing Ki' feat for (which should fully heal you with a high WIS) or you simply throw in a quick cocoon. So far i never had a single quest where i used up my spellpoint pool and had to drink a potion or use a bauble.

Maybe it's also because i'm not fond of switching lots of items back and forth during a quest and fill my inventory space with scrolls. But to each his own. If i could reach a high enough UMD to cast no-fail Raise scrolls without switching an item then i would probably go for it but so far i do well enough with my Ring of the Ancestors and my Triple Pos GS shuriken and i will probably leave UMD for Completionists with some Artificer Past lifes and a UMD skill tome from the store.

If you really want to go that way though i think you can also take skillpoints from Move Silently if you don't use it that much. And another good thing to boost your UMD is the Epic Martial Past Life feat 'Skill Mastery' which gives you +3 to all skills which you can turn on and off in favor of 'Brace' as you need it. Of course yugo pots and store pots help with UMD too. Keep in Mind that for a bound +6 CHA shard you need 150 arcane crafting skill (which i do not have on my crafter).

I have no idea though why you want to use Cacophonic Verge in epics at all except maybe to break some boxes and even then you will not be centered anymore if you switch it in. Or did i miss any hidden effects on it? My Sorc has one but surely never uses it in epic content.

[Cardtrick]

For some people UMD seems to be a must-have. I'm not one of them. And i still don't think you need it or even can get it high enough to make good use of it on this build. It is a bit of a paradox if you need GH to have a better chance to cast GH scrolls.

I realize it's not really the point, but it's relatively easy to get a Draconic neclace with a single clicky of GH. They're exclusive, but you can use the one use per rest you're allowed to sort of "boot strap" yourself into GH if you're struggling to hit the necessary UMD score. Just be sure to re-apply the GH from a scroll before the +4 morale points from the first GH wear off.

All that aside, for me the biggest reason I put UMD on absolutely every character I build is to get Teleport. I hate unnecessary running. The other uses of UMD -- especially fire shield and heal -- have more impact on successful quest completion, but Teleport is way more important to my enjoyment of the game.

I have no idea though why you want to use Cacophonic Verge in epics at all except maybe to break some boxes and even then you will not be centered anymore if you switch it in. Or did i miss any hidden effects on it? My Sorc has one but surely never uses it in epic content.

It's mostly just that it's great at breaking boxes. I agree that it's probably not worth using on a centered build, but I love it on most of my characters. Your sorc would have no need for it since you can just cast Sonic Blast innately (or an un-metaed fireball or something), but for most characters it's really nice to have an AOE breakable smasher. As for hidden effects, it does work through some floors and walls like any use of Sonic Blast, but that's rarely useful -- especially in epics.

[EllisDee37]

Wait, wands make you uncentered? What real effect does that have if I switch it in, break a group of barrels, and switch it out? (The only way I use it.) And do scrolls make you uncentered too?

What makes cacophonic verge so good is that it never runs out, regaining a charge every 2 seconds. Plus it has no ASF check, being a wand. And it's essentially weightless, compared to stacks of 100 scrolls.

For some people UMD seems to be a must-have. I'm not one of them. And i still don't think you need it or even can get it high enough to make good use of it on this build. It is a bit of a paradox if you need GH to have a better chance to cast GH scrolls.

If UMD didn't let you use any scrolls at all except teleport it would still be worth it. That alone is priceless. The "quality of life" improvement you get with teleport is massive.

Greater Heroism and True Seeing scrolls both last 11 minutes. It is trivially easy to keep them both going 24/7 just by casting both after quest entry and each shrine. It isn't a hardship to swap to a UMD ring each shrine, and is a net gain if you no longer have to switch to a sub-optimal gearset when you need True Seeing.

The rest of UMD's value is marginal, IMO. Raise dead scrolls are okay, but the vast majority of my raising uses the single +++ greensteel clickie all my alts have. It's pretty rare I actually resort to a raise scroll, but in those rare occasions it's definitely nice.

Fire shield is really just for ice flensers with their no-save polar rays, but that's even more marginal/rare than raise dead scrolls.

FoM is not reliably UMD-able since you can't buy scrolls.

[Firewall]

I just said that UMD is not worth the investment in such low numbers for *me*. If it is for you then that is absolutely ok. Since i have *two* 11 minute GH clickies every shrine i really don't have to bother switching in a ring, some scrolls etc. everytime to cast it on me. Especially not if i have to first use a clickie to be able to use the scroll more or less reliably with the second cast from a scroll. I don't know a quest where you need more than 22 minutes of GH in between shrines.

And i also don't have to switch to a sub-optimal gearset for True Seeing since as i said i have Celestia equipped all the time and it is just a minor switch from a red to a yellow planar focus which changes my setbonus from +4 damage and 15 PRR to True Seeing and +8 Sneak attack damage. And this really has to be done very seldom since very few mobs use displacement and blur and you can switch it easily back after the kill.

Teleport is another thing of course but still i don't bother since i usually use my Eveningstar key and then run to the guild ship which can take me everywhere i want to go and with the high running speed from monk and a phiarlan pendant of time and Abundant Step that is not worth for me to invest heavily into the skill since i will only be able to get it to mediocre levels anyway and only at level 28 (because the augment in the ring will only let you switch it in at that level and you need the skill points from epic levels). Since i'm actually in the process to get my epic completionist i'm almost never spend any time at lvl 28 right now. As i said - if i could get it to high levels some other way i would invest into it but i don't have a completionist feat nor any artificer past lifes. But that's just me. Feel free to change whatever you like to make the build optimal for you to have fun!

The reason i would want it for raise scrolls is that in the new raids on higher difficulties you often have lots of deaths and two clickies might not always be enough there if things go bad.


And yes, wands make you uncentered. This is not really a big issue if you are not in a fight but it is still annoying since you have to turn Water Stance and Sting of the Ninja Stance back on everytime after you used the wand and during that time you loose all bonuses that require you to be centered.

[EllisDee37]

Out of curiosity, what is your AC and what are your saves, fully buffed at 28? My natural instinct is that Resilience > Combat Expertise.

[Yoursuperior]

Out of curiosity, what is your AC and what are your saves, fully buffed at 28? My natural instinct is that Resilience > Combat Expertise.

The combat expertise doesn't only give you bonus to AC but it also gives 20PRR when you twist improved combat expertise from the LD Epic Destiny. Saves are for me i'm at 70 FORT 79 Reflex and 71 Will fully buffed.

[Firewall]

Out of curiosity, what is your AC and what are your saves, fully buffed at 28? My natural instinct is that Resilience > Combat Expertise.

I posted the approximate stats i can reach at lvl 28 in post #353.

If you go for AC you have to invest all or nothing to get any value out of it. Due to the mechanics of AC the higher the CR of a monster is the higher is the threshold you have to overcome to start getting any use out of AC. That also means that even if you get diminishing returns out of points invested in AC at monsters close to your level they will still have increasing returns against a mob in EE endgame. This is why you cannot simply loose the 10% AC bonus from combat expertise since it is worth a lot more than 10 AC at values far above 100. If you want to calculate the value of different amounts of AC yourself you can find the formula here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5194676.

The difference between an AC of 150 and an AC of 135 against a CR 70 monster (EE Stormhorns) is 7% miss chance with total values of 38% versus 31%. That is a relative loss of 20% total. And we have monsters which have even higher CR where the difference would be greater. (An AC value of 97 or below would be useless because you drop below the 5% miss chance that you always have)

Against a CR 45 Boss (Lord Grulemith im EE Demonweb) the difference would be 59% vs. 54% so the relative and absolute differences are not as high but it still is another 5% of an additional non-dispellable layer of defense. (An AC value of 65 or below would be the threshold to uselessness here).

That is why i would also never switch the white dragon robe for something else.
This is calculated for water stance and with my a bit outdated gear. Of course you can reach higher AC values and if you switch to tank mode in mountain stance you can even reach a lot higher miss chances.


The saves on the build are great for all existing EE endgame quests so up until now i have not seen the need to go for even better saves. Since my values are with only a +7 resistance item i guess there can still be a good improvement with upcoming content and gear anyway. Also the build has secondary defenses against spells and traps in the form of Spell Resistance, Improved Evasion and an EE Jeweled Cloak with 25 charges of spell absorption per rest.

[Firewall]

Vargouille introduced the new Swashbuckler PrE. I see more throwing weapon builds coming: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...er#post5318269

[EllisDee37]

The difference between an AC of 150 and an AC of 135 against a CR 70 monster (EE Stormhorns) is 7% miss chance with total values of 38% versus 31%.

Thanks much; exactly the kind of breakdown I was looking for. Your analysis is compelling.

[TeacherSyn]

Vargouille introduced the new Swashbuckler PrE. I see more throwing weapon builds coming: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...er#post5318269

I saw this as well. I enjoyed a NWN2 version of this, which was a Rogue, not Bard prestige class. But I suspect this works better for Bards as a whole but it's early design purposefully encourages crossclassing for some interesting diversity you don't see in much at all in a single tree. Hard to say if such as thrower would have greater attack speed, but daggers will have...what? Twice the base damage?

Throwing dagger prices are going to rise; stock up!

[Firewall]

I saw this as well. I enjoyed a NWN2 version of this, which was a Rogue, not Bard prestige class. But I suspect this works better for Bards as a whole but it's early design purposefully encourages crossclassing for some interesting diversity you don't see in much at all in a single tree. Hard to say if such as thrower would have greater attack speed, but daggers will have...what? Twice the base damage?

Throwing dagger prices are going to rise; stock up!

That PrE as it is planned now will hardly be a match for any shuriken monk build. Reason: You cannot get an extra attack from Ninja II and you will not have additional attacks from 10k stars even if you use shuriken and Shuriken Expertise. That is quite a number of attacks that will never be compensated by the increased damage and better crit multiplier. Especially lesser number of attacks will make Shiradi also a lot less useful because you will have lesser procs per minute.

Due to the alignment restrictions you will not be able to splash monk or paladin which are quite popular.

Also so far there is no DEX to damage enhancement in the tree so you will have to invest in DEX *and* STR for attack and damage with throwers (except if you take halfling).

[TeacherSyn]

That PrE as it is planned now will hardly be a match for any shuriken monk build. Reason: You cannot get an extra attack from Ninja II and you will not have additional attacks from 10k stars even if you use shuriken and Shuriken Expertise. That is quite a number of attacks that will never be compensated by the increased damage and better crit multiplier. Especially lesser number of attacks will make Shiradi also a lot less useful because you will have lesser procs per minute.

Due to the alignment restrictions you will not be able to splash monk or paladin which are quite popular.

Also so far there is no DEX to damage enhancement in the tree so you will have to invest in DEX *and* STR for attack and damage with throwers (except if you take halfling).

Agreed. It does offer an interesting edge for the Chaotic aligned, it seems. But yeah, it's totally missing the double-throwing ninja goodness.

[HastyPudding]

That PrE as it is planned now will hardly be a match for any shuriken monk build. Reason: You cannot get an extra attack from Ninja II and you will not have additional attacks from 10k stars even if you use shuriken and Shuriken Expertise. That is quite a number of attacks that will never be compensated by the increased damage and better crit multiplier. Especially lesser number of attacks will make Shiradi also a lot less useful because you will have lesser procs per minute.

Due to the alignment restrictions you will not be able to splash monk or paladin which are quite popular.

Also so far there is no DEX to damage enhancement in the tree so you will have to invest in DEX *and* STR for attack and damage with throwers (except if you take halfling).

^this^


Swashbuckler is better for a one-handed rapier/short sword build, although I can see it easily being splashed with sorcerer's eldritch knight or artificer's battle engineer for the rune arm use.

[Tilomere]

Agreed. It does offer an interesting edge for the Chaotic aligned, it seems. But yeah, it's totally missing the double-throwing ninja goodness.

True, but a halfling Nightforge Spike thrower that was a barb (critical rage)/bard (swashbuckler) might have a pretty gnarly final crit profile, depending on how things stack and their interactions with IC:Thrown.

Critical rage gives 3 crit with IC:Thrown, so if the bard one also gave 3 after IC:Thrown, and the halfing one gave 2 after IC:Thrown, and you added in Divine Crusader's 2 after IC:Thrown, and everything stacked, you would have ...

4-20x4 crit profile.

Sniper shot could make it 0-20x6. << If so, sign me up.

The crit multipliers are probably like death frenzy and OC though, and only on 19-20 regardless of saying increased crit by 1-2. And who knows how they all stack.

[Sleek1]

Might be worth to mention that even if the active weapon enhancements might not work on the main hand it would be interesting to craft a shortsword with

Tier 0: Orange Augment Slot
Tier 1: 150 devotion spellpower
Tier 2: Armor Piercing 35% or Purple Augment slot (or if it works Wrath of Flame)
Tier 3: healing spell crit 22%, Colorless Augment Slot

This would have an orange augment slot for slotting spellpoints or deathblock and a colorless augment slot for another bonus (vitality, attribute, globe of true imperial blood, heal skill,...). If Wrath of Flame would work on the main hand and you added it instead of the armor piercing this might be a better offhand weapon than Celestia i would say.

I apologize if I've missed this somewhere, but has anyone confirmed if Wrath of Flames on the offhand carries over to the Shuriken? BTW, absolutely love this build! :-)

[Garix]

Been having a quick play with this (was looking for something different and this fitted ) but I do have a couple of quick questions (apologies in advance if they are covered more fully in the thread, but 20 plus pages makes it a little tricky to find the exact answer)

One of the things that surprised me most was carrying something in the off hand. Aside from combat feat bonus (ie trip stun etc) I was under the impression that weapon effects only applies to the weapon that was doing the hitting. From what I can gather, from the information in the thread, this is not the case with thrown weapons. Is there a (more or less) exhaustive list of what effects DO carry over to your thrown weapon? I know elemental and other damage effects don't but what about crippling etc (I gather deception does- Correct?)

Finally, can I get away without having raid/challenge loot? I can craft more or less anything from Cannith Crafting (my boredom threshold was much higher then). I accept it's not optimal (do have a couple of pieces from a long time ago - Treason amongst them) but I heartily dislike raiding and as for the challenges.... put it this way - I'll step foot in the shroud three weeks after never, and start the challenges a couple of weeks after that

Many thanks

[Firewall]

@Tilomere: I sincerely think that the Devs will make sure that the crit enhancements will definately not stack like you suggest. But even if you could achieve a 100% crit chance (and also a 100% armor piercing) the low base damage from throwers would make the build hardly overpowered since you miss so much damage from other sources like shiradi, spelltouched, poison, Sneak Attack damage, Celestia and Planar Focus set, No Mercy, Vorpal and whatnot. Also i would use a Thunderforged Mortal Fear throwing weapon in favor of a ML8 thrower anytime and if you want to go for crits on a shuriken build the Snowstar has almost the same crit profile with only one less multiplier. I think the viability for EE with such a build will depend much on the Single Weapon Fighting Feats for throwing weapons but the Devs already said that they will postpone the implementation for throwers for a future update somewhen.

@Sleek1: I have not tested it yet but i hope i find the time to do it when they reopen Lamannia next thursday. Would be nice if someone else already had an answer to this though.

@Garix: Answer is in post #317.

No you really cannot get away without raids or challenges in my opinion. All the necessary gear is from those sources. You cannot build an epic viable thrower without spelltouched, greensteel and/or thunderforged shuriken and the most necessary offhand weapons (Rebellion, Celestia, Thunderforged) also come from raids. Above level 20 you will not get far with only a Shadow Star, a Snowstar and Treason or at least i think you will not have much fun.

[Garix]

@Garix: Answer is in post #317.

No you really cannot get away without raids or challenges in my opinion. All the necessary gear is from those sources. You cannot build an epic viable thrower without spelltouched, greensteel and/or thunderforged shuriken and the most necessary offhand weapons (Rebellion, Celestia, Thunderforged) also come from raids. Above level 20 you will not get far with only a Shadow Star, a Snowstar and Treason or at least i think you will not have much fun.

Many thanks.

I guess I'll find out as/when/if I ever get there. Character was a WF Monk who'd been parked at 20 since.....actually I've no idea since when.... and I had a spare heart - so it's not like I'm really losing anything if it all goes pear shaped

Fun build so far though.

[Janitorman]

Didn't see it anywhere in this thread, but recently tested a ruby eye of inferno in the offhand to see if the aoe effect proc'd on a thrown weapon.

It does not as far as I could tell. Only tested ruby eye of inferno but assume all the others function similarly.

Dreams of slotting meteoric star and 2 other eyes in luck blade were squashed.

If anyone finds anything contrary please correct.

[Firewall]

Didn't see it anywhere in this thread, but recently tested a ruby eye of inferno in the offhand to see if the aoe effect proc'd on a thrown weapon.

It does not as far as I could tell. Only tested ruby eye of inferno but assume all the others function similarly.

Dreams of slotting meteoric star and 2 other eyes in luck blade were squashed.

If anyone finds anything contrary please correct.

Yes i fully expected this to be the case. The proc explicitly says that it is an 'On Hit'-ability which should only work on a hit of the weapon it is on. That is why i fully expect Thunderforged Tier 2 effect 'Wrath of Flames' also NOT to work on the mainhand weapon. But still it is nice if someone can confirm it.