Necro Cleric for new players

[pappo]

Sounds like you're getting close to picking up this from Exalted Angel (it's a core ability):

Transcendental Magic: Passive Bonus:+3 to the DC of all your spells.

That will make a big difference. Also, though it doesn't help you right away, eventually twisting in +3 DC from Magister School Specialist helps a lot too.

Thanks SirValentine - I should get the Transcendental soon. I have 15 points in the tree now. That will put my DC's into the 50's.
I will head for Magister after that.

You said "yes" on insta-kills. Which ones have you seen insta-kill on in Epics.

[SirValentine]

You said "yes" on insta-kills. Which ones have you seen insta-kill on in Epics.

All of them. I don't cast them for the minor damage on a passed save! That would be way too much SP for way too little damage. Slay Living, Destruction, and Implosion most commonly. Undeath to Death versus Undead. Mass Frog at level 28.

Oh, wait: instakills that work great in Heroic but that don't really work in EE: Dismissal & Banishment. They don't use a normal DC, they use a special caster-level-versus-hit-dice check, and EE mobs have bloated super-high numbers of hit dice, so it doesn't really scale. I don't even bother loading them for EE. Turn Undead ends up with a similar fate.

[IIVIIotha]

Ya mon gars.

[pappo]

Hello Ellis

I am up to level 24 now with your build.
I wondered what destiny do you think best suits this build ? I have been running in Exalted Angel for the +3 to DC from Transcendental Magic, but I wondered what others have tried on this Necro Cleric build.

It has been a lot of fun so far.

Thanks

[EllisDee37]

For me, it's Exalted Angel all the way.

A very strong case can be made for switching to Unyielding Sentinel while raid healing.

[pappo]

For me, it's Exalted Angel all the way.

A very strong case can be made for switching to Unyielding Sentinel while raid healing.

Any chance of you posting an image of your EA selections, showing what you took?

[EllisDee37]

Any chance of you posting an image of your EA selections, showing what you took?

Destiny (24 AP)

Exalted Angel

1. Radiant Power III, Endless Faith III, Healing Power III, Wisdom
2. Wisdom
3. Wisdom
4. Wisdom
5. Leap of Faith, Wisdom
6. Divine Wrath, Wisdom

Twists of Fate (11 fate points)

1. Renewal (Tier 3 Sentinel)
2. School Specialist: Necromancy (Tier 2 Magister)

[pappo]

Destiny (24 AP)

Exalted Angel

1. Radiant Power III, Endless Faith III, Healing Power III, Wisdom
2. Wisdom
3. Wisdom
4. Wisdom
5. Leap of Faith, Wisdom
6. Divine Wrath, Wisdom

Twists of Fate (11 fate points)

1. Renewal (Tier 3 Sentinel)
2. School Specialist: Necromancy (Tier 2 Magister)

Thanks EllisDee37
I appreciate you taking the time to do this.
I got to level 25 last night in 3BC Epic hard quests, and Slay Living was a big success.

[EllisDee37]

I'm gonna say that Chill Touch is actually a superior SLA to Nimbus, simply because it actually gets new dice each level up until level 5. Which means that you'll be doing Empowered/Maximized 5d3+15 damage, in addition to any negative spellpower you'll have.

I'm currently running my wizard through a sorc life on his way to completionist, and as such have been using the Shocking Grasp SLA. This is my first experience actually using a touch-range dps spell in any meaningful way.

All I have to say is, wow, touch-range dps spells ROCK at low levels. I have no doubt that you're correct about Chill Touch being better than Nimbus of Light.

Since Necrotic Bolt (the darkside SLA instead of Searing Light) can't be boosted by metamagics (right?) I still give the edge to the lightside, but I have no doubth that Chill Touch is super satisfying.

[SirValentine]

Destiny (24 AP)

Exalted Angel

1. Radiant Power III, Endless Faith III, Healing Power III, Wisdom
2. Wisdom
3. Wisdom
4. Wisdom
5. Leap of Faith, Wisdom
6. Divine Wrath, Wisdom

Twists of Fate (11 fate points)

1. Renewal (Tier 3 Sentinel)
2. School Specialist: Necromancy (Tier 2 Magister)

For another view, for comparison, I use:

Exalted Angel

1. Wisdom, Avenging Light, Radiant Power II, Healing Power I, Endless Faith I
2. Wisdom
3. Wisdom, Piercing Spellcraft III
4. Wisdom
5. Wisdom, Leap of Faith
6. Wisdom, Divine Wrath

Twists of Fate (the following costs 11 fate points)

1. School Specialist: Necromancy (Tier 2 Magister)
2. Acute Instincts (Tier 2 Fury of the Wild)
3. +1 Wisdom (Tier 1)

Actually, I have 4 twist slots, and put another +1 Wisdom in the 4th.

Overall, pretty similar; I find Avenging Light worth it, and want the Spell Pen.

And, personally, I don't twist Renewal. Divine Healing covers my cheap HoT requirements, and if I want to twist in a healing SLA, Cocoon fits in a lower tier, works through walls at great distance, and can work on myself. Anytime I feel I really need Renewal, I'm probably better off just running in Sentinel than Angel anyway.

[EllisDee37]

Yep, I agree with all that, SirValentine.

I just have renewal twisted because I'm forgetful and lazy; I'd hate to find myself healing a raid and have forgotten it. That's also why I still have Energy Shield: Electric as my third twist. heh.

I really need to get my twists squared away. I'm thinking maybe Precise Casting: Evocation might be worth considering, but then I'd need to ditch epic spell focus: necromancy for spell focus: evo.

[SirValentine]

I'm thinking maybe Precise Casting: Evocation might be worth considering...

For sure, it's a great choice. I use it on and off while leveling through an ER. If the last +1 Wisdom twist leave me at odd total Wisdom, it gets substituted to Precise Evo. But at level 28, I'm at even Wisdom, so I skip it.

[BigErkyKid]

What is your spell rotation like while in necro mode?

I've always wondered how purely necro focused clerics could be effective. The reason is that you have very few necromancy spells to work with, a pale master has a better arsenal to deal with mobs IMHO.

Cleric insta kills:

Implosion (which is EVO)
Slay living (touch spell, harder to use)
Destruction
Circle of death
Mass frog - only in end game

Pale Master insta kills:

Phantasmal killer (and phantasmal killer SLA if built accordingly, it is illusion but DCs should be to the level of implosion on a cleric)
Circle of death
Finger of death
Wail of the banshee (necro and hence better than implosion on a wizard)

However, a pale master can more easily cause helpless and use CC. Even specializing in necro, a wiz can have workable DCs in many other schools, such as enchantment, evocation or illusion. Also quite important, bursts, hell ball work better with a wiz IMO than with a cleric.

How would the cleric play, then? And how would you sell it to a new player?

[SirValentine]

...you have very few necromancy spells to work with...

"very few"? DDO Wiki says Clerics have 26 Necro spells (to Wizard's 35).

...a pale master has a better arsenal to deal with mobs IMHO.

Both Implosion & Mass Frog work on many things immune to Wail/Circle.

The big advantage I see Wizards having isn't instakill spell selection, it's CC. Greater Command and Cometfall are better than nothing, but not really up to the level of Otto's or Mass Hold, et cetera. Of course, Earthquake is supposed to be a Cleric spell...

(Though Wizards are still several points ahead on Necro DCs. Thunderforged proxy-nerfed 1 point of gap-closing divines had via Alchemical weapons, then the Harper Agent tree cranked Wizards way into the lead again.)

Cleric insta kills:
Circle of death

Nope, not a Cleric spell.

Phantasmal killer (and phantasmal killer SLA if built accordingly, it is illusion but DCs should be to the level of implosion on a cleric)

More ways to boost Evo. +3 for Sorc PLs, +2 for Draconic twist available. Plus, PK requires 2 saves to fail, not just 1.

What is your spell rotation like while in necro mode?

See post #148.

[BigErkyKid]

"very few"? DDO Wiki says Clerics have 26 Necro spells (to Wizard's 35).

Right, I meant the insta kills. But I am curious, aside from the killing and enervation, and perhaps a symbol now and then, what other necro spells do you use? Honest question.

Both Implosion & Mass Frog work on many things immune to Wail/Circle.

True. But have you managed to get implosion for end game working? I haven't. I know that end game is not all the game, but still irks me.

The big advantage I see Wizards having isn't instakill spell selection, it's CC. Greater Command and Cometfall are better than nothing, but not really up to the level of Otto's or Mass Hold, et cetera. Of course, Earthquake is supposed to be a Cleric spell...

I honestly think they are a tad ahead in insta kills with wail being easier to pump than implosion and having a bigger selection of spells. Yes, the CC and having an easier time getting mobs helpless, aside from better synergy with hell ball and e burst are also great and place them ahead of necro clerics, IMHO.

Nope, not a Cleric spell.

My bad, misplaced. Let's do this right the list would be (I add your DCs and Andoris's DCs next to the spells)

Wizard Pale Master

Circle of death - AOE (77 DC) - 30 secs
Wail - AOE (77 DC) - 60 secs
Power word kill - single target (SR) - 210 secs
Finger of death - single target (77 DC) - 8 seconds
Phantasmal killer - single target (65 DC) - 8 seconds

Cleric

Implosion - AOE (69 DC) - 60 secs
Mass frog - AOE (68 DC) - 60 secs
Destruction - single target (75 DC) - 8 secs
Slay living - single target (75 DC) - 8 secs

So better DCs, particularly on the mass kills (that work on more things, if they work for clerics). Worse DCs on the short rotation spells (PK is worse). However as you note, better CC and better nuking. Honestly I still feel the cleric seems to get the short end of the stick. Now if they got earth quake things would change.

[QUOTE=SirValentine;5579443]More ways to boost Evo. +3 for Sorc PLs, +2 for Draconic twist available. Plus, PK requires 2 saves to fail, not just 1.
You are right, it is worse to boost than evocation and the end DC is lower. Mid-early 60s? EDIT: 65 reports Andoris.

[SirValentine]

But I am curious, aside from the killing and enervation, and perhaps a symbol now and then, what other necro spells do you use? Honest question.

Cause Fear. Necrotic Ray. Undeath to Death. Energy Drain & Enervation. Bestow Curse. Inflict & Mass Inflict.

Destruction & Slay Living are by far the big two. But then, I seldom see Wizards casting any Necro spells other than Circle, Wail, and Finger.

But have you managed to get implosion for end game working?

Do I routinely implode Orcs in EE Storm Horns? No. Do I routinely implode other mobs in EE Storm Horns, and mobs in EE Orchard? Yes.

Let's do this right the list would be (I add your DCs and Andoris's DCs next to the spells)

Wizard Pale Master
Circle of death - AOE (77 DC) - 30 secs

Cleric
Destruction - single target (75 DC) - 8 secs

Note that 77 isn't even max for a Wizard. Andoris lowers DCs to build for a bit more DPS than I do (runs in Draconic, takes Ruin, twists Sense Weakness, etc.). And his numbers don't include Lasting Ability potions, which mine do. So the gap is actually wider.

[EllisDee37]

No changes were made when updating the output format. Here's the previous output:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Necro Cleric
Level 28 True Neutral or Neutral Good Human
(20 Cleric / 8 Epic) 

Abilities          28pt    32pt    34pt    36pt
Strength            10      10      10      10
Dexterity            8       8       8       8
Constitution        14      14      14      14
Intelligence        14      14      14      14
Wisdom              16      18      18      18
Charisma            12      10      12      14

Skills              Ranks
Concentration        23
Heal                 23
Spellcraft           23
Jump                 11 
UMD                  11
Tumble                1

Feats
 1 : Maximize Spell
 1H: Empower Spell (becomes Spell Penetration at level 11)
 1C: Follower of the Sovereign Host
 3 : Empower Healing Spell
 6 : Quicken Spell
 6C: Unyielding Sovereignty
 9 : Spell Focus: Necromancy or Past Life: Arcane Initiate
12 : Heighten Spell
15 : Greater Spell Penetration
18 : Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy or Spell Focus: Necromancy
21E: Epic Spell Penetration
24E: Enlarge Spell
26E: Toughness
27E: Great Ability: Wisdom or Empower Spell or Spell Focus: Evocation
28E: Guardian Angel

Exalted Angel
Wisdom VI
Healing Power III
Radiant Power III
Endless Faith III
Renewal III
Twist 1: Necromancy Specialist
Twist 2: Brace for Impact 
Twist 3: Boulder Toss


Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Cleric Bonus) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Divine Disciple Core: Divine Emissary of Light
Enhancement: DD Tier 1: Nimbus of Light I
Enhancement: DD1: Nimbus of Light II
Enhancement: DD1: Nimbus of Light III


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: DD1: Spell Points I
Enhancement: DD1: Spell Points II
Enhancement: DD1: Spell Points III
Enhancement: DD1: Spellpower: Light I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: DD Core: Sacred Defense
Enhancement: DD1: Spellpower: Light II
Enhancement: DD3: Searing Light I
Enhancement: DD3: Searing Light II


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: DD3: Searing Light III
Enhancement: DD1: Spellpower: Light III
Enhancement: DD2: Spellpower: Universal I
Enhancement: DD2: Spellpower: Universal II


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Enhancement: DD2: Spellpower: Universal III
Enhancement: DD3: Spellpower: Light I
Enhancement: DD3: Spellpower: Light II
Enhancement: DD3: Spellpower: Light III


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: DD4: Holy Smite I
Enhancement: DD4: Holy Smite II
Enhancement: DD4: Holy Smite III
Enhancement: DD Core: Sun Bolt


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant Core: Healing Domain
Enhancement: RS Tier 1: Extra Turning I
Enhancement: RS1: Extra Turning II
Enhancement: RS1: Extra Turning III


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: RS1: Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: RS2: Improved Turning I
Enhancement: RS2: Improved Turning II
Enhancement: RS2: Improved Turning III


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy or Past Life: Arcane Initiate
Enhancement: RS2: Mighty Turning I
Enhancement: RS Core: Pacifism
Enhancement: RS Core: Positive Energy Burst


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: RS1: Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: RS1: Wand Mastery III
Enhancement: RS2: Efficient Empower Healing I


***** RESPEC CHARACTER AFTER FINISHING 10, BEFORE TAKING 11 *****
Feat: (Exchange) Spell Penetration replaces Empower Spell
Divine Disciple Tree Reset
Enhancement: DD Core: Divine Emissary of Darkness
Enhancement: DD Core: Sacred Defense
Enhancement: DD1: Spell Points III
Enhancement: DD1: Spellpower: Universal III
Enhancement: DD2: Spellpower: Universal III
Enhancement: DD3: Spellpower: Universal III


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Enhancement: RS2: Efficient Empower Healing II
Enhancement: RS2: Efficient Empower Healing III
Enhancement: RS3: Wisdom
Enhancement: RS4: Wisdom
Enhancement: RS4: Endless Turning I
Enhancement: RS4: Endless Turning II
Enhancement: RS4: Endless Turning III


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: RS5: Positive Energy Aura
Enhancement: DD3: Wisdom


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Enhancement: DD2: Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: DD2: Spell Penetration II


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: DD Core: Enervation
Enhancement: DD Core: Necrotic Ray
Enhancement: DD4: Spell DC: Necromancy


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: DD2: Efficient Maximize I
Enhancement: DD2: Efficient Maximize II


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: DD2: Efficient Maximize III
Enhancement: DD4: Wisdom


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Enhancement: DD1: Spell Critical: Universal
Enhancement: DD2: Spell Critical: Universal


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy or Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Human Core: Skill Boost
Enhancement: Human1: Improved Recovery
Enhancement: RS Core: Improved Empower Healing


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Enhancement: DD3: Spell Critical: Universal
Enhancement: DD4: Spell Critical: Universal


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Core: Wisdom
Enhancement: DD Core: Power Word: Stun
Enhancement: DD Core: Transcend Darkness


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Spell Penetration


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Enlarge Spell


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Toughness


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Great Ability: Wisdom or Empower Spell or Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Guardian Angel

<End of Build>

[Doutrinador]

Cause Fear. Necrotic Ray. Undeath to Death. Energy Drain & Enervation. Bestow Curse. Inflict & Mass Inflict.

Destruction & Slay Living are by far the big two. But then, I seldom see Wizards casting any Necro spells other than Circle, Wail, and Finger.



Do I routinely implode Orcs in EE Storm Horns? No. Do I routinely implode other mobs in EE Storm Horns, and mobs in EE Orchard? Yes.




Note that 77 isn't even max for a Wizard. Andoris lowers DCs to build for a bit more DPS than I do (runs in Draconic, takes Ruin, twists Sense Weakness, etc.). And his numbers don't include Lasting Ability potions, which mine do. So the gap is actually wider.

When do you use Tthe inflict spells? I never tried to use on my FVS life. They are sp eficient?

[SirValentine]

When do you use Tthe inflict spells? I never tried to use on my FVS life. They are sp eficient?

Not to damage enemies! That would be pointless in Epic, though you maybe reasonably could in Heroic content.

Though I don't personally build or play primarily as a "healer", having the option to help out your teammates in emergencies is A Good Thing.

I've saved the rears of Palemaster party members with Inflict spells more often than you might think. A Mass Inflict does not have the ridiculously short range of the single-target; I keep one with metas on for those emergencies. A low-level single-target Inflicts with all metas off is SP-efficient for helping top up a PM between battles.

With their fewer spell slots, I wouldn't expect a FvS to be able to fit in two Inflict spells, but it's doable as a Cleric.

[EllisDee37]

A Mass Inflict does not have the ridiculously short range of the single-target

Nice tip!