Devs, what are your thoughts on enhancing an ability you don't have?

[EllisDee37]

Currently on live you can't take any enhancement that buffs an ability you don't possess. This is right and proper, IMO. In the new enhancement trees, however, it seems like buffing an ability you don't have is the norm. Been working on a respec of my pally today, and just that alone shows:

KotC tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Turn Undead (pallies can't turn undead until level 4)
Divine Light (buffs turn undead; again, turns are ML4)
Extra Remove Disease (pallies don't get remove disease until level 6)

KotC tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Turning (again, level 4)
Divine Might (requires turn undead, level 4)

KotC tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Restoration (buffs Remove Disease, which again is level 6)


Sacred Defender tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Lay On Hands (pallies don't get LoH until level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (Sacred Defense is a stance acquired from tier 3 core ability, minimum level 6)

Sacred Defender tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (buffs the stance you don't get until 6)

Sacred Defender tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Sacred Defense (still buffing the ML6 stance)
Greater Sacred Defense (same deal, now with more "no effect")

Sacred Defender tier 4: (Available at level 4)
Greater Sacred Defense (Just how much can we buff a stance we don't qualify for?)
Swift Defense (Apparently a lot! Still buffing that ML6 stance...)



This is just what I ran across while designing a single build. No doubt this type of thing is all over the other trees. Don't you think this will be very confusing and un-intuitive for new players?

[Systern]

Currently on live you can't take any enhancement that buffs an ability you don't possess. This is right and proper, IMO. In the new enhancement trees, however, it seems like buffing an ability you don't have is the norm. Been working on a respec of my pally today, and just that alone shows:

KotC tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Turn Undead (pallies can't turn undead until level 4)
Divine Light (buffs turn undead; again, turns are ML4)
Extra Remove Disease (pallies don't get remove disease until level 6)

KotC tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Turning (again, level 4)
Divine Might (requires turn undead, level 4)

KotC tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Restoration (buffs Remove Disease, which again is level 6)


Sacred Defender tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Lay On Hands (pallies don't get LoH until level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (Sacred Defense is a stance acquired from tier 3 core ability, minimum level 6)

Sacred Defender tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (buffs the stance you don't get until 6)

Sacred Defender tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Sacred Defense (still buffing the ML6 stance)
Greater Sacred Defense (same deal, now with more "no effect")

Sacred Defender tier 4: (Available at level 4)
Greater Sacred Defense (Just how much can we buff a stance we don't qualify for?)
Swift Defense (Apparently a lot! Still buffing that ML6 stance...)



This is just what I ran across while designing a single build. No doubt this type of thing is all over the other trees. Don't you think this will be very confusing and un-intuitive for new players?

All the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Turn Undead Abilities are useful to a Cleric 18/Pally 2 build, however...

[Hajutze]

Or for a Sacred Defender Paladin who doesn't want to waste 20 AP to get to the extra turns (if they move them to tier 4 just because a paladin can't turn before lv4)

Those enhancements - all of them - are put on a lower tier so you dont have to waste point to get them on the upper tiers. Jesus, it's so simple. Does "An extra 1 turn undead per rest" sound like a Tier 4 ability to you ?

[EllisDee37]

All the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Turn Undead Abilities are useful to a Cleric 18/Pally 2 build, however...

How useful are the Extra Remove Disease or Improved Sacred Defense enhancements for an 18/2 Cleric/Pally?

Is it good design when you can take enhancements that will literally do nothing, ever?

[Satyriasys]

Well you guys are both right, the sad truth is the ep just isn't very elegant. Why we didn't get generic class trees to cover the basics and unlock prestiges is a mystery to me. I am still looking forward to them however since they're 100 times better than what we have now.

[Cetus]

Great post, all factual observations.

[Tscheuss]

The problem with freedom of choice is that we may choose wisely or poorly.
The beauty of freedom of choice is that we may choose wisely or poorly.

I prefer to have the option to choose poorly rather than no choice at all.

[EllisDee37]

At least be consistent and remove the feat prereqs for efficient metamagic, fighting style (+6% glancing blow weapon procs, requires THF), etc... since clearly there are many feat-buffing enhancements that don't require the feat. (LoH, Turn Undead and Remove Disease are all feats.)

[lyrecono]

Currently on live you can't take any enhancement that buffs an ability you don't possess. This is right and proper, IMO. In the new enhancement trees, however, it seems like buffing an ability you don't have is the norm. Been working on a respec of my pally today, and just that alone shows:

KotC tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Turn Undead (pallies can't turn undead until level 4)
Divine Light (buffs turn undead; again, turns are ML4)
Extra Remove Disease (pallies don't get remove disease until level 6)

KotC tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Turning (again, level 4)
Divine Might (requires turn undead, level 4)

KotC tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Restoration (buffs Remove Disease, which again is level 6)


Sacred Defender tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Lay On Hands (pallies don't get LoH until level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (Sacred Defense is a stance acquired from tier 3 core ability, minimum level 6)

Sacred Defender tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (buffs the stance you don't get until 6)

Sacred Defender tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Sacred Defense (still buffing the ML6 stance)
Greater Sacred Defense (same deal, now with more "no effect")

Sacred Defender tier 4: (Available at level 4)
Greater Sacred Defense (Just how much can we buff a stance we don't qualify for?)
Swift Defense (Apparently a lot! Still buffing that ML6 stance...)



This is just what I ran across while designing a single build. No doubt this type of thing is all over the other trees. Don't you think this will be very confusing and un-intuitive for new players?

it is there on fighters too!

why they did this?
well afer reaching lv 6 you can reset your enhancements.
press "reset all tree's and look at the shard (wich commes first) and plat cost.
this might be the reason for the low tier enhancements needing lv in a given class.

imagine the cost at lv 20 after a couple of forced resets because things didn't work as plannned....
i have seen 600k plat already though i don't rememder the shard costs tough....