Don't understand

[WilliamBraveheart]

Why would you take an enhancement system that is easy to understand and use and make it much more difficult to use and understand?

[DeKalbSun]

Personaly, I don't think the current system is all that easy to understand. It took me a while to figure out to check the little box to show
all enhancements, and I pretty much need to look at the wiki every time I go choose new ones to be sure I'm not messing up. Maybe
that is the fault of the current UI though. Anyway, just like anything else, once you get used to it, it won't be that big a deal.

[WilliamBraveheart]

guess I am in the minority here and will just have to deal with the dumbing down of the game and this more restrictive system.

[Tscheuss]

I think it more a matter of perspective. Those of us who worked to figure out the quirks of the current system, and frequently use it to its fullest, have a greater chance of disliking the new system. New, newer, and not-so-new players who do not have so much invested in fully learning the current system are more likely to accept, and even embrace the change.

From my experience working with the new system, I found it more difficult to work with initially, because I didn't know where anything was. As I worked with it more, I could see how it is a friendlier interface for new players. I believe the vets will come around as they get familiar with the new system, and they will learn the new combinations which are not possible with the current UI.

[jalont]

guess I am in the minority here and will just have to deal with the dumbing down of the game and this more restrictive system.

Some things. First, what we currently have on LIVE is actually a tree system. Some people just don't realize it because it is implemented in the most stupid way possible. The current system is literally a box with words in it. There's actually paths in there, but actually seeing the paths takes unneeded effort. When I say it couldn't be designed worse, I fully mean it. I can not come up with a worse way to implement a tree system... I mean, perhaps a word cloud where you click on a big word and hope for the best....

Second. I can understand some people complaining because the new system is over-complicated or because they can't go into the new system and build their toon the same. But, the new system being "dumbed down" sound likes something from someone who didn't attempt to use it. The current system on LIVE isn't as "deep" as people claim. There's only a very few ways to get to optimal, with a million gimp build options. With the enhancement pass, there's several more ways to get to optimal and still a million gimp build options. I really don't understand how it's dumbed down. It's deeper than we currently have.

[Vekseid]

Why would you take an enhancement system that is easy to understand and use and make it much more difficult to use and understand?

You claim to find it more difficult to use, presumably because you like waiting for a half second after every mouse click and scrolling through a hundred skill bonus options.

You also claim it's more difficult to understand...

guess I am in the minority here and will just have to deal with the dumbing down of the game and this more restrictive system.

Then you call it a 'dumbing down'.

[Flavilandile]

Why would you take an enhancement system that is easy to understand and use and make it much more difficult to use and understand?

They wanted a Tree UI... and while they were at it, they just scrapped the old system and made a new one instead of fitting the old system in a Tree UI.

[Ryiah]

guess I am in the minority here and will just have to deal with the dumbing down of the game and this more restrictive system.

Usually when I see the term "dumbing down" I usually think "easier". But your original post claims the new system is harder to understand. So which is it?

[Thrudh]

Why would you take an enhancement system that is easy to understand and use and make it much more difficult to use and understand?

The current system is extremely hard to understand... Even after 7 years, I almost always have to click on "Show all", and scroll through 200 pointless enhancements to find out why I can't take the 2nd level of some PrE, only to find I still need a feat or Jump II or something.

The new system's UI is far superior. And the enhancements themselves let you get pretty much everything you have on live, plus some new stuff.

[Thrudh]

guess I am in the minority here and will just have to deal with the dumbing down of the game and this more restrictive system.

How is it more restrictive?

Can you take stuff from 6 different PrEs on live now? My wizard gets like 75% of BOTH Palemaster and Archmage in the new system... My barbarian gets to play with stuff from 3 different barb PrEs instead of just Frenzied Berzerker on live.

[Impaqt]

guess I am in the minority here and will just have to deal with the dumbing down of the game and this more restrictive system.

Make up your mind. Is it dumbing down or is it harder to use?

Maybe you think its harder to use because you have been using one system for 5 years and now need to switch over? Instead of assuming the new system is bad, perhaps you should play with it a bit. Its actually much easier to use and quite a bit less restrictive than what we have been using for so long.

[Satyriasys]

They wanted a Tree UI... and while they were at it, they just scrapped the old system and made a new one instead of fitting the old system in a Tree UI.

A good thing too. Can you imagine some of the current prestiges in the new tree ui? Hunter of the Dead for example, Better Turn Undead, More Turns, Restoration sla, Ghost touch. Wow what a fun tree.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

I see this type of resistance to change all the time at work. We've been deploying Office 2010 (yeah my work is behind the times) and the amount of constant complaints about it is just silly. But they have no choice to use it, And you know what, almost everyone that was so against it before they actually received it, find it better and easier than the 2003 they were used to. So I understand people resisting such a large change, most people want to avoid rocking the boat. But often, rocking the boat brings around better things. I'm sure a few months from now there will be some rock solid builds that wouldn't have been possible before the changes. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

And no, the current enhancement system is not easy to use. Well, it's easy to select something, but viewing and planning with it in game was just ludicrous. I've been reading about it and I think I like what I see. It is very similar to the old ability system in their Asheron's Call 2 game and I really liked that system.

[EllisDee37]

Outside of the "points spent in tree" gating mechanism -- which makes it fundamentally more restrictive than what we have on live -- my only real complaint with the new system is that there are way more "gotcha!" traps.

There are lots and lots of enhancements that buffs feats you may never get. Consider that in another thread, someone suggested something like 12 fighter/6 monk/2 paladin to take advantage of pally saves and divine might, now that divine might is only tier 2 so is available for 2 pally levels.

Sounds great. Now imagine they wanted to frontload a bunch of combat feats to get up and running quickly, so they start off with 3 monk levels and 2 fighter levels, then grab the two pally levels. Since divine might is expensive (2 AP per rank) imagine they hold off for a couple levels before taking it. After all, may as well wait until you can equip your +6 cha item @ 9, right?

So level 9 rolls around and they take divine might. Only then do they discover that Divine Might requires Turn Undead and pallies don't get turns until pally level 4. So now at level 9 they all of a sudden have to rethink their build to try and compensate for an otherwise unknowable issue the new tree interface makes no mention of whatsoever.

The old system would never let you take enhancements that buff a feat you don't have. The new system almost revels in buffing feats you don't have. I view this as poor design.

[Tscheuss]

Outside of the "points spent in tree" gating mechanism -- which makes it fundamentally more restrictive than what we have on live -- my only real complaint with the new system is that there are way more "gotcha!" traps.

There are lots and lots of enhancements that buffs feats you may never get. Consider that in another thread, someone suggested something like 12 fighter/6 monk/2 paladin to take advantage of pally saves and divine might, now that divine might is only tier 2 so is available for 2 pally levels.

Sounds great. Now imagine they wanted to frontload a bunch of combat feats to get up and running quickly, so they start off with 3 monk levels and 2 fighter levels, then grab the two pally levels. Since divine might is expensive (2 AP per rank) imagine they hold off for a couple levels before taking it. After all, may as well wait until you can equip your +6 cha item @ 9, right?

So level 9 rolls around and they take divine might. Only then do they discover that Divine Might requires Turn Undead and pallies don't get turns until pally level 4. So now at level 9 they all of a sudden have to rethink their build to try and compensate for an otherwise unknowable issue the new tree interface makes no mention of whatsoever.

The old system would never let you take enhancements that buff a feat you don't have. The new system almost revels in buffing feats you don't have. I view this as poor design.

Hopefully, they will add the feat prereq gate in the patch. :/

[Flavilandile]

A good thing too. Can you imagine some of the current prestiges in the new tree ui? Hunter of the Dead for example, Better Turn Undead, More Turns, Restoration sla, Ghost touch. Wow what a fun tree.

Well it's Hunter of the Dead after all.
As it would have kept all the base enhancements along we would have had : 1 Racial Tree, 1 Basic Class tree and several ( 3 ) PRE Trees.
With the same old gating system ( points spent overall and prerequisite ) it would have worked fine IMHO.

Outside of the "points spent in tree" gating mechanism -- which makes it fundamentally more restrictive than what we have on live -- my only real complaint with the new system is that there are way more "gotcha!" traps.

Between the ones you won't be able to pick up ( or be able to pick up but won't be able to use ) and the ones you will have to take to pad the ******** idiotic stupid points spent in tree count, you'd be lucky if in the end you end up with half of your enhancements that are really wanted and useful.

And I'm not even starting on the clickiefest that will make the game look like SWTOR or NWN where you just cycle through clickie mindlessly and wait for the cooldown to happen.
For some classes you'll have to be a chimpanzee to be able to both move and use all the clickies.

The old system would never let you take enhancements that buff a feat you don't have. The new system almost revels in buffing feats you don't have. I view this as poor design.

Yes, while the new will let you gimp yourself without any warning.

[Deathdefy]

Yes, while the new will let you gimp yourself without any warning.

That complaint is literally limited to Divine Might no? Are we even sure that the +1 Turns per rest from T1 of KoTC don't give you access?

EDIT: Tested myself and it definitively does not give you access. Spent about 5 mins in a Tavern with plenty of Charisma and 3/3 Extra Turning and Divine Might on a 2 Pal / 2 Ranger. DM Counter just sat at 0.

I'm still not on board with the claim that "The new system almost revels in buffing feats you don't have" since it is just this one instance that's gone unfixed until now.

[EllisDee37]

I'm still not on board with the claim that "The new system almost revels in buffing feats you don't have" since it is just this one instance that's gone unfixed until now.

I started a thread on the subject a few days ago, and it is most certainly not limited to one ability. Here's the OP of that thread reproduced in its entirety:


Devs, what are your thoughts on enhancing an ability you don't have?

Currently on live you can't take any enhancement that buffs an ability you don't possess. This is right and proper, IMO. In the new enhancement trees, however, it seems like buffing an ability you don't have is the norm. Been working on a respec of my pally today, and just that alone shows:

KotC tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Turn Undead (pallies can't turn undead until level 4)
Divine Light (buffs turn undead; again, turns are ML4)
Extra Remove Disease (pallies don't get remove disease until level 6)

KotC tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Turning (again, level 4)
Divine Might (requires turn undead, level 4)

KotC tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Restoration (buffs Remove Disease, which again is level 6)


Sacred Defender tier 1: (Available at level 1)
Extra Lay On Hands (pallies don't get LoH until level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (Sacred Defense is a stance acquired from tier 3 core ability, minimum level 6)

Sacred Defender tier 2: (Available at level 2)
Improved Sacred Defense (buffs the stance you don't get until 6)

Sacred Defender tier 3: (Available at level 3)
Improved Sacred Defense (still buffing the ML6 stance)
Greater Sacred Defense (same deal, now with more "no effect")

Sacred Defender tier 4: (Available at level 4)
Greater Sacred Defense (Just how much can we buff a stance we don't qualify for?)
Swift Defense (Apparently a lot! Still buffing that ML6 stance...)



This is just what I ran across while designing a single build. No doubt this type of thing is all over the other trees. Don't you think this will be very confusing and un-intuitive for new players?

[EllisDee37]

Also, if they "fix" it by re-introducing feat prereqs, there will still be an issue. Three of the five enhancements in KotC tier 1 aren't available until pally level 4 or 6. Leaving you only 2 enhancement lines left to work with for 4 levels. One is extra smites; a solid ability most every pally wants. All good, but that's only 2 AP, combined with the 1 AP for the first core ability and you still need to spend 2 AP just to unlock tier 2.

The only other ability in all of kotc tier 1 is...Attack Boost, 2 AP per rank. So you throw away 2 AP on the first rank just to open up tier 2, and will be respecing the tree to drop those wasted 2 AP as soon as you hit level 4.

It's a poor, inelegant design with or without feat prereqs.

EDIT: And I guarantee that there will be new players who can't make heads or tails out of the SD tree. They'll keep taking all these "improved sacred defender stance" enhancements without actually having the stance or even knowing what a stance is.

[Deathdefy]

Wow - I sit corrected.

Maybe just stamp pally trees with giant red flags.