Quest Ransack AKA how to kill a (part of the) game

[caissede12]

Today, I'm willing to repeat quests. The way I read this, this change will mean I don't join a group for any quest/difficulty that I have done.

I don't think that will help grouping.

Well, if you capped the quest and there is a group open for XYZ difficulty, no you probably wont wanna join, but the same apply whit current system. Where it change is if you farmed the quest to max (or event just once) 18h before, penalty will be reduced by 50% (so if you were at -80% penalty cap, you can do it whit a -30% xp penalty (+20% from daily), so only a -10% penalty, while on live, you would run it again at -90% and there is no way to get the penalty removed)

I've already stated a SIMPLE solution:

1) Leave the current system as it is
2) Let the penalty wears off after a week
3) Rework the exp of packs like Armath and cannith
4) Add the daily bonus

And EVERYONE would be happy. No need for all of this. And the main point of this sentence is EVERYONE. Not just I, me, my friend. EVERYONE.

We could also set the BB to apply on every run, and/or remove penalty xp completely. Im sure EVERYONE would be happy about it... or maybe not. One thing I learned is, while doing negotiation or disputing a point of view, always speak has "I" and not "us" or anything. You cant include others in your opinion because they are, after all, your opinion. Even including 4-5 persons because sometimes they will agree simply because they dont feel like fighting in arguments or whatever. (On a side note, there is a difference between giving MY opinion and being selfish)

I like your idea, for sure, but its too much gain... specially for hardcore farmer. The best quest could be rerun every 18h five time (-50% penalty = 5 run at -10% down to cap again), which would mean a lot more easy xp/min farming possible. Like some would say, TRing isnt too much "effort" whit the current system, and increasing too much the xp income would make TRing a joke. It would give a huge bonus, but without any loss. What they are offering seems fair to me. I would personally prefer a -15% penalty (instead of the 20%), or reduce the penalty decay to 30% and leave the current 10%, but this is my opinion.

[redoubt]

I like your idea, for sure, but its too much gain... specially for hardcore farmer. The best quest could be rerun every 18h five time (-50% penalty = 5 run at -10% down to cap again), which would mean a lot more easy xp/min farming possible. Like some would say, TRing isnt too much "effort" whit the current system, and increasing too much the xp income would make TRing a joke. It would give a huge bonus, but without any loss. What they are offering seems fair to me. I would personally prefer a -15% penalty (instead of the 20%), or reduce the penalty decay to 30% and leave the current 10%, but this is my opinion.

I don't even consider myself a hardcore farmer, but I do occassionaly farm a quest. Take litany for example.

I'll run it 10-15 times in 2-2.5 hours. I'll probably run out the other quests at level 15 the same day and then take my next level. Or if I have less play time, I'll take two days to go through the level 15 quests.

If I take two days, I could rerun litany with the daily bonus and whatever the reset is for one day, on my second day of level 15 quests. The trouble I see is that even over two days, I won't get enough runs with good xp to make it to the next level. (And right now the numbers are in flux, so its even harder to estimate.)

Now take an actual hardcore gamer and realize that any one level will be done in a single day. There is no next day for them. Heck, there is rarely a next day for me, and I don't hold a candle to the powergamers (3 weeks of steady playing is my norm for 1-20.)

[unacceptable]

I don't even consider myself a hardcore farmer, but I do occassionaly farm a quest. Take litany for example.

I'll run it 10-15 times in 2-2.5 hours. I'll probably run out the other quests at level 15 the same day and then take my next level. Or if I have less play time, I'll take two days to go through the level 15 quests.

If I take two days, I could rerun litany with the daily bonus and whatever the reset is for one day, on my second day of level 15 quests. The trouble I see is that even over two days, I won't get enough runs with good xp to make it to the next level. (And right now the numbers are in flux, so its even harder to estimate.)

Now take an actual hardcore gamer and realize that any one level will be done in a single day. There is no next day for them. Heck, there is rarely a next day for me, and I don't hold a candle to the powergamers (3 weeks of steady playing is my norm for 1-20.)

If you are running a quest 15 times you are currently getting 600%base xp over those 15 runs. With the new system you will be getting 475% base xp. I am still not seeing how you lose on this when you are getting 25% additional base xp on every quest you run for the first time.

What percentage of your quest xp comes from farming vs. one and dones? Which quests do you farm each life? That might help understand the issue better.

[redoubt]

If you are running a quest 15 times you are currently getting 600%base xp over those 15 runs. With the new system you will be getting 475% base xp. I am still not seeing how you lose on this when you are getting 25% additional base xp on every quest you run for the first time.

What percentage of your quest xp comes from farming vs. one and dones? Which quests do you farm each life? That might help understand the issue better.

Not going to question the math as I've not done any. Just posting concern based on experince in how many quests I need to run on live.

Now, please explain your comment on the +25%. You said every quest. I thought of was just a few select quests which would vary by day. My info may very well be old.


Thanks.

[EllisDee37]

Now, please explain your comment on the +25%. You said every quest. I thought of was just a few select quests which would vary by day. My info may very well be old.

Your info isn't old so much is that it was an old misinterpretation of the original announcement. It was never for a select few quests.

The 25% daily bonus applies to every quest, every day.

Now take an actual hardcore gamer and realize that any one level will be done in a single day. There is no next day for them. Heck, there is rarely a next day for me, and I don't hold a candle to the powergamers (3 weeks of steady playing is my norm for 1-20.)

A hardcore farmer no longer "uses up" a quest, though. You get something like 50% back each day, meaning in 2 days you're back to full xp. So let's say the farmer takes level 11 and then farms out both VON3 and ShadowCrypt. Since that farmer still found both those quests worth running with a -50% penalty (just to pull out a random number) due to repeats, that means they'll now get a brand new ability to run them again at level 12, 13, 14, and 15 since the repetition penalties go away so quickly and the overlevel penalty doesn't get them below 50% (on elite) until level 16.

If we say 1 level per day, under the new system the farmer gets fewer shots at VON3+Shadow Crypt at level 11. If you want at least 40% as the cutoff, they get 6 or 7 runs. (Not sure which.) Next day they take level 12. The day after that they take 13 and get to re-farm VON3 and Shadowcrypt 4 times each (with a 10% overlevel penalty) as if they'd never been run before, minus the bravery and "first time on difficulty" bonuses.

[EllisDee37]

Let's look over the specific numbers for VON3, a common XP farm, including ransack & conquest but not ingenious, plus a greater tome. Let's say you run elite for bravery, farm it on hard until down to a 60% repetition penalty, then run normal and call it done. That's EHx8N. Let's further assume 1 level per day.

As I understand it, the current dev plan is 20% ransack penalty per run, 80% max, 50% removed per day, with a flat 25% bonus every day on every quest.

On Live (EHHHHHHHHN)
1E: 420% = 150% bravery + 80% first time + 50% tome + 40% bonuses (conquest & ransack)
2H: 200% = 40% first time + 20% tome + 40% bonuses
3H: 160% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses
4H: 150% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 10% repetition
5H: 140% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 20% repetition
6H: 130% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 30% repetition
7H: 120% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 40% repetition
8H: 110% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 50% repetition
9H: 100% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 60% repetition
10N: 150% = 20% first time + 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 10% overlevel
Grand Total: 1680% for 10 runs, quest is now depleted forever (168% per run average)

Quest Ransack
Day 1 (level 11)
1E: 445% = 25% first run + 150% bravery + 80% first time + 50% tome + 40% bonuses (conquest & ransack)
2E: 140% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 20% repetition
3E: 120% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 40% repetition
4E: 100% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 60% repetition
5H: 200% = 40% first time + 20% tome + 40% bonuses
6N: 150% = 20% first time + 40% bonuses + 20% tome - 10% overlevel
Total Day 1: 1155%
Day 2 (level 12)
1E: 155% = 25% first run + 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 30% repetition
2E: 110% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 50% repetition
Day 3 (level 13)
1E: 155% = 25% first run + 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 10% overlevel - 20% repetition
2E: 110% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 10% overlevel - 40% repetition
Day 4 (level 14)
1E: 150% = 25% first run + 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 25% overlevel - 10% repetition
2E: 105% = 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 25% overlevel - 30% repetition
Day 5 (Level 15)
1E: 130% = 25% first run + 20% tome + 40% bonuses - 50% overlevel
5 Day Grand Total: 2070% for 13 runs, repetition expires for epic levels (159% per run average)

Okay, obviously a few things will impact this. You may not have a pot going the whole time over 5 days whereas on live you could drink a single pot and do the whole farm without concern. You also may want to level faster than 11-15 in 5 days, which cuts into the # of runs you can do. So the above breakdown is likely very optimistic.

However, that very optimistic breakdown ends up with a net advantage in amount of xp compared to live -- albeit at a slightly reduced xp per run average -- while also wiping away VON3 repetitions for epic levels.

I don't see this as a huge hit to farmers except for the 5-day-life tr ironmen. It could easily be a net gain to a large % of the farming population. The one area I see being hit is Turbine, with the potential loss of xp pot store purchases if people can't justify buying as many pots since you can't reliably do an entire farm on a single pot.

Another (perhaps unintended) bonus is that we all of a sudden see a valid reason to run "non-bravery" groups. That could open up a lot of possibility for pugging, which is nice. (VON3 9-11 for bravery on day 1, 9-12 on day 2, 10-13 on day 13, 11-14 on day 4, and 12-15 on day 5.)

[Henky]

Your info isn't old so much is that it was an old misinterpretation of the original announcement. It was never for a select few quests.

The 25% daily bonus applies to every quest, every day.

Me and my guildies when we do a TR group we just usually do a Elite run on every quest that we dont hate and move on.

We level up as we make quests so we can keep the bravery bonus maximized, and we dont farm any quest until we get to Shadow Crypt (until -50% only), then we don't farm nothing again until Necro IV and Litany (again until -50%), and from there till 20 we farm nothing. Usually with Wilderness areas, challenges and quests we hit 20 without stepping on Amrath/Cannith/IQ quests.

We do that way because that system will give us 750 turbine points in favor (3000+), its not the best system in xp/min, but for us is more fun.

So... with the new system we get a 25% extra on every quest that we do the first time on each day? This will mean that we dont have to farm litany again EVER. Yes, atm we hate farming litany, too many runs on that quest.

[EllisDee37]

Me and my guildies when we do a TR group we just usually do a Elite run on every quest that we dont hate and move on.

We level up as we make quests so we can keep the bravery bonus maximized, and we dont farm any quest until we get to Shadow Crypt (until -50% only), then we don't farm nothing again until Necro IV and Litany (again until -50%), and from there till 20 we farm nothing. Usually with Wilderness areas, challenges and quests we hit 20 without stepping on Amrath/Cannith/IQ quests.

We do that way because that system will give us 750 turbine points in favor (3000+), its not the best system in xp/min, but for us is more fun.

So... with the new system we get a 25% extra on every quest that we do the first time on each day? This will mean that we dont have to farm litany again EVER. Yes, atm we hate farming litany, too many runs on that quest.

I do exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason. And yeah, I earmark 750 TP from every life, heh. (Also, running different quests is just more interesting than running the same one a dozen times in a row.)

For those like us this change is a massive improvement.

[Wizza]

Let's look over the specific numbers for VON3, a common XP farm, including ransack & conquest but not ingenious, plus a greater tome. Let's say you run elite for bravery, farm it on hard until down to a 60% repetition penalty, then run normal and call it done. That's EHx8N. Let's further assume 1 level per day.

As I understand it, the current dev plan is 20% ransack penalty per run, 80% max, 50% removed per day, with a flat 25% bonus every day on every quest.

On Live (EHHHHHHHHN)
Grand Total: 1680% for 10 runs, quest is now depleted forever (168% per run average)

Quest Ransack
5 Day Grand Total: 2070% for 13 runs, repetition expires for epic levels (159% per run average)

Okay, obviously a few things will impact this. You may not have a pot going the whole time over 5 days whereas on live you could drink a single pot and do the whole farm without concern. You also may want to level faster than 11-15 in 5 days, which cuts into the # of runs you can do. So the above breakdown is likely very optimistic.

However, that very optimistic breakdown ends up with a net advantage in amount of xp compared to live -- albeit at a slightly reduced xp per run average -- while also wiping away VON3 repetitions for epic levels

The most important bit of your post is the one in yellow.

Over the course of FIVE days and THREE more runs I gain a ~24% exp.

As you said, I may have outlevelled this quest the very next day or I will not have a pot going on for 5 days with the new system.

I can't see the point for this new system. There are many elegants solution out there and in this same thread that I will never be able to justify THIS system.

[EllisDee37]

I can't see the point for this new system. There are many elegants solution out there and in this same thread that I will never be able to justify THIS system.

This system hurts the most rabid, hardcore farmers. The ones who run an entire life from 1-20 in 7 days or less. I will never believe this is even close to 1% of the population; likely more like 0.1%.

If you take 2 weeks or more to level a third life, this system is either going to be break even or (more likely) a net gain.

If you take a month or more to level a third life, this system is a big improvement.

Aside from that, there are other advantages to this system:

1) We will see more LFMs not limited to the bravery range. Some players feel the bravery range is too restrictive, and this change addresses that issue effectively, if unintentionally.

2) This corrects the problem of heroic repetitions counting toward epic quests.

3) This system is a huge help to players who only own limited content, making the game more viable "purely for free." That could help draw more players who otherwise wouldn't consider it, and then those players might actually start to pay money. (This describes me, actually; I only joined because it was free and fully intended to never spend any money on the game. And now here I sit, hundreds of dollars later...)


For me, the big reason I've become a fan of this system (as of like 2 hours ago) is solely because it shatters the bravery range. I see this as a massive improvement to the game, and am willing to sacrifice a little of the xp efficiency of 7-day-life ultra-farmers to achieve that.

[Nascoe]

The most important bit of your post is the one in yellow.

Over the course of FIVE days and THREE more runs I gain a ~24% exp.

As you said, I may have outlevelled this quest the very next day or I will not have a pot going on for 5 days with the new system.

I can't see the point for this new system. There are many elegants solution out there and in this same thread that I will never be able to justify THIS system.

Actually depending on what you want to achieve, the important part could also be the fact that you are NOT repleted for Epic levelling in any quests though.

Also, is the math right? I understood that the second time you run on a difficulty that day, you do not get the daily bonus but also do not yet suffer a ransack penalty. That would make the amount of runs per day higher, shortening it to about 3 days, I guess (if anyone can check that - assumption + maths), which is not all that bad anymore.

[EllisDee37]

Also, is the math right? I understood that the second time you run on a difficulty that day, you do not get the daily bonus but also do not yet suffer a ransack penalty.

I thought that too but couldn't find a concrete cite for it, so I went with worst-case.

Also, consider if you skip days 3, 4 and 5 in the example above:

Grand Total: 1680% for 10 runs, quest is now depleted forever (168% per run average)

2 Day Grand Total: 1420% for 8 runs, repetition expires for epic levels (177.5% per run average)

[slarden]

Not going to question the math as I've not done any. Just posting concern based on experince in how many quests I need to run on live.

Now, please explain your comment on the +25%. You said every quest. I thought of was just a few select quests which would vary by day. My info may very well be old.


Thanks.

My understanding is that you get a 25% daily bonus the first time you run that quest in a day (18 hour day so it resets after 18 hrs). Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

[Wizza]

This system hurts the most rabid, hardcore farmers. The ones who run an entire life from 1-20 in 7 days or less. I will never believe this is even close to 1% of the population; likely more like 0.1%.

If you take 2 weeks or more to level a third life, this system is either going to be break even or (more likely) a net gain.

If you take a month or more to level a third life, this system is a big improvement.

Aside from that, there are other advantages to this system:

1) We will see more LFMs not limited to the bravery range. Some players feel the bravery range is too restrictive, and this change addresses that issue effectively, if unintentionally.

2) This corrects the problem of heroic repetitions counting toward epic quests.

3) This system is a huge help to players who only own limited content, making the game more viable "purely for free." That could help draw more players who otherwise wouldn't consider it, and then those players might actually start to pay money. (This describes me, actually; I only joined because it was free and fully intended to never spend any money on the game. And now here I sit, hundreds of dollars later...)


For me, the big reason I've become a fan of this system (as of like 2 hours ago) is solely because it shatters the bravery range. I see this as a massive improvement to the game, and am willing to sacrifice a little of the xp efficiency of 7-day-life ultra-farmers to achieve that.

And? Some of us ARE hardcore farmers. Why should we take a hit when there are other solutions that achieve this same goal in a better way?

Again, I'm tired of answering the same argumentations (moar lfms! newbies friendly! no epic repetition!). Take a look at this same thread and you will find tons of answers to those arguments.

[EllisDee37]

I can't see the point for this new system.

Actually, it's pretty obvious: There are only a teeny tiny number of quests you can run to generate the 3.6 million xp to get from level 25 to 28. Clearly, any system that makes you wait a week to remove repetition penalties is a non-starter; repetitions need to come off the stack quickly or the 25-28 leveling process isn't viable.

With that as the premise, of course farming needed to be reigned in. Imagine getting a full VON3 farm same as on live, and then get to repeat that entire VON3 farm 2 days later. That would be beyond broken.

That's the reason in a nutshell.

[slarden]

I thought that too but couldn't find a concrete cite for it, so I went with worst-case.

Also, consider if you skip days 3, 4 and 5 in the example above:

Grand Total: 1680% for 10 runs, quest is now depleted forever (168% per run average)

2 Day Grand Total: 1420% for 8 runs, repetition expires for epic levels (177.5% per run average)

I think the best point for me here is that I won't suffer penalties when running epics I can also farm less because of the daily bonuses I get. The benefits are great and the drawbacks few. Based on some of the #s I've seen posted, I can't see too many people suffering from this, especially since most of the xp comes from the other bonuses and not base.

Von3 off the top of my head which likely isn't complete:

Onslaught: 25%
Ransack (easiest ransack in the game): 15%
Traps: 10-15% depending on whether you get 1 of the 2 opts that spawns a trap
No Deaths: 10% (This is why I don't believe many hardcore farming groups post lfms anyhow - it's a bigger impact when farming)

And I may be missing something. These are the reasons farming VON3 is so good under the current system and it really won't be awful under the new system, but also may not be necessary at all. I can run a quick E H N and be done.

I never farmed on Lam to see full hit. If you run E H N do the opts degrade ilike they do on live? IF so the H N runs will be at -30% and -60% for opts which is a big deal. On live if you run EEEEEEEHN by the time you get to HN the opts are heavily degraded even though it's the first time running on that difficulty.

[EllisDee37]

And? Some of us ARE hardcore farmers. Why should we take a hit when there are other solutions that achieve this same goal in a better way?

Do any of them address this:

Actually, it's pretty obvious: There are only a teeny tiny number of quests you can run to generate the 3.6 million xp to get from level 25 to 28. Clearly, any system that makes you wait a week to remove repetition penalties is a non-starter; repetitions need to come off the stack quickly or the 25-28 leveling process isn't viable.

With that as the premise, of course farming needed to be reigned in. Imagine getting a full VON3 farm same as on live, and then get to repeat that entire VON3 farm 2 days later. That would be beyond broken.

That's the reason in a nutshell.

I'm open to ideas that work given this premise. Got any links?

[slarden]

And? Some of us ARE hardcore farmers. Why should we take a hit when there are other solutions that achieve this same goal in a better way?

Again, I'm tired of answering the same argumentations (moar lfms! newbies friendly! no epic repetition!). Take a look at this same thread and you will find tons of answers to those arguments.

What is your leveling plan? Which quests do you farm and what percent of your xp comes from one and dones? I haven't seen that yet unless I missed it.

[Wizza]

Actually, it's pretty obvious: There are only a teeny tiny number of quests you can run to generate the 3.6 million xp to get from level 25 to 28. Clearly, any system that makes you wait a week to remove repetition penalties is a non-starter; repetitions need to come off the stack quickly or the 25-28 leveling process isn't viable.

With that as the premise, of course farming needed to be reigned in. Imagine getting a full VON3 farm same as on live, and then get to repeat that entire VON3 farm 2 days later. That would be beyond broken.

That's the reason in a nutshell.

No, you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

I can't see the point for THIS system. I can see the point in general but that point can be achieved in so many more ways better than THIS. As I said, there are a bunch of other options to do what this system wants to do that I can't bring myself to accept this one, one of the worst solution possible.

[EllisDee37]

No Deaths: 10% (This is why I don't believe many hardcore farming groups post lfms anyhow - it's a bigger impact when farming)

Totally spaced persistance and flawless bonuses. My bad.

I never farmed on Lam to see full hit. If you run E H N do the opts degrade ilike they do on live? IF so the H N runs will be at -30% and -60% for opts which is a big deal. On live if you run EEEEEEEHN by the time you get to HN the opts are heavily degraded even though it's the first time running on that difficulty.

This is a fair point; I honestly don't know.