Divine Disciple

[Carpone]

Bright Spots: Enervate and Necrotic Ray added to spell book, along with +Necromancy DC.

Unfortunately DC casting as a whole needs an overhaul.

[EllisDee37]

yeah, currently I carry all spell pen enhancements and am full smiting spec'd on LIVE, there is not way to do that and carry RS on LIVE

What does your cleric offer to you as a player that a FVS wouldn't do more/better?

[SirValentine]

What does your cleric offer to you as a player that a FVS wouldn't do more/better?

Spell slots. That's the humongous difference. Clerics can do all sorts of stuff, changing as needed, while FvS are forced to pigeon-hole themselves into 1-trick wonders due to lack of spell slots and lack of ability to easily change them. And in triplicate if they splash.

Less important, but also there, Clerics have 1 more point of Wisdom available, and Turn Undead plus it's various offshoots.

So let's turn that around: what does FvS offer that Cleric doesn't do better?

FvS currently has one big advantage to me, which is the the archon from Angel of Vengeance, and only because of it's synergy with Exalted Angel Rebuke/Wrath. In any other destiny, not even that. Other than the archon and a few more SP, FvS has nothing going for it that I care greatly about, certainly nothing that can make up for the crippling loss of spells.

[SirValentine]

yeah, currently I carry all spell pen enhancements and am full smiting spec'd on LIVE, there is not way to do that and carry RS on LIVE

Why do you say there is not way to do that? Have you tried?

OK, I just pulled up the Character Generator, and after taking all 4 Wisdom increases (assuming Human or Helf), all 3 Spell Pen, Radiant Servant II, and all 3 Smiting lines to the maximum, I still had 11 AP left over for whatever else. So it certainly is possible.

I carry all spell pen enhancements
<snip>
I am not a conventional player by far, i am prob one of the only Cleircs you know that uses the Shiradi Destiny

I see logic in getting good spell pen, and I see logic in Shiradi.

But I'm afraid I don't see the logic spending 12 AP on 3 points of Spell Pen and AT THE SAME TIME using a destiny that lowers your Spell Pen by 5 points.

[Leclaire1]

Also I watch these same clerics get p'owned in EE content over and over trying to stand close to the melee to give them RS aura...If they are spec'd like madmatt with full healing amp, then they could prob do it, but not the clerics that I see...For the content that I play and they way my groups generally play ( not pugs), RS isn't really going to keep them up, it is skill and kiting and getting out of the line of fire.

It is true that many clerics perhaps misunderstand the aura and bursts and put themselves into harm's way to use them, but that's poor playing and not poor building. The major purpose of the aura is, as madmatt alluded to, to help fulfill the number one rule of being a healer, namely, don't die. The aura is there to heal the cleric from residual damage so he/she can heal the main group while standing away from the boss. The secondary purpose is to save sp by providing continual healing in between fights or during regular mob fights where the danger to the cleric is minimal. When fighting bosses and mini-bosses in challenging content the cleric should be healing with spells, as an aura won't be enough anyway. Given the major advantages of an aura, I'd definitely have to agree with Sir Valentine that I can't personally really see a good reason to not take it on live, though I always try to respect differing playstyles.

I do like that you appreciate other benefits of the class, such as extra spell And slots, better armor, turn undead applications, etc. I enjoy my FVS much less in part due to the limitation in spell slots. While FVS past lives help you smite things, I personally think clerics are the better caster class in the big picture in part due to them having plenty of slots to fill with nuking spells while having the healing ones auto-memorized. I also appreciate that some clerics like yourself and Sir Valentine would explore the options and be willing to make a different choice- customization and exploring builds which break the mold are part of what makes this game great. At the end of the day though, I agree with EllisDee the vast majority of clerics will not make this choice, and it will greatly limit how most clerics build their toons and damage the customization the Devs want to encourage. Innovative players like the two of you will break the mold, but many others, including myself, would never maximize the tree. That being said, if they were to relocate the aura to a ML12 Core ability I would follow this new tree all the way to the top because its a great tree, and I do lots of smiting when groups are self-sufficient. But if they don't make this change, call me a conventional coward, but I wouldnt be willing to limit my healing usefulness to ee groups and raids by giving up one of the major healing advantages I have over and FVS or heal-specced druid. And I have to say, especially to you veterans who have been playing since the beginning and seen it at times shunned by the devs in bias of FVS, don't clerics deserve both?

[JOTMON]

It is true that many clerics perhaps misunderstand the aura and bursts and put themselves into harm's way to use them, but that's poor playing and not poor building. The major purpose of the aura is, as madmatt alluded to, to help fulfill the number one rule of being a healer, namely, don't die. The aura is there to heal the cleric from residual damage so he/she can heal the main group while standing away from the boss. ?

This would be inaccurate and more of a personal opinion.

If the aura was intended only to keep the cleric from residual damage it would be a self only divine healing or somesuch thing...
its not.. it is an aura that heals the cleric and anyone around the cleric, so to me it makes sense to have the majority of the party in my aura.

Choice of positioning by the cleric will determine the damage the cleric takes, you dont have to stand between the melee and the boss.
I prefer to stand in the midst of battle with aura, bursts aoe heals and maintain enough HP to survive hits between heals, and generally stand out of the way of any direct hits.

I have built my character to suit my playstyle. It doesnt make it wrong or poor playing, for me it is quite effective.

To insinuate that it is a poor playstyle is a pidgeonholing mentality.. are you basically saying all healers should just stand back out of harms way and be the nannybot.

[eachna_gislin]

This would be inaccurate and more of a personal opinion.

If the aura was intended only to keep the cleric from residual damage it would be a self only divine healing or somesuch thing...
its not.. it is an aura that heals the cleric and anyone around the cleric, so to me it makes sense to have the majority of the party in my aura.

Choice of positioning by the cleric will determine the damage the cleric takes, you dont have to stand between the melee and the boss.
I prefer to stand in the midst of battle with aura, bursts aoe heals and maintain enough HP to survive hits between heals, and generally stand out of the way of any direct hits.

I have built my character to suit my playstyle. It doesnt make it wrong or poor playing, for me it is quite effective.

To insinuate that it is a poor playstyle is a pidgeonholing mentality.. are you basically saying all healers should just stand back out of harms way and be the nannybot.

I prefer to stand back a bit and use my aura to heal ranged/casters. I'm probably more of a traditional healbot than you. But, I do like to supplement some damage with Divine Punishment.

I use Renewal and Rejuvenation Cocoon for about 90-95% of single target heals, with the remainder filled in by heal scrolls. Since this is so cheap, I use the remainder of my spellpoints for DP. This is when I'm assigned to tank heals.

For mass targets, I either cast Mass Heal every time it comes off cooldown, or in rare cases (mostly in the Demon Queen EE raid) I cycle through ALL my mass cures + Mass Heal. If I'm just casting Mass Heals, I usually have enough sp for DP. If I'm cycling, I expect to run dry and so cast nothing else.

Just for ToD, I do most of my healing by turning on my aura and then repeatedly bursting (on normal or hard, elite is too tough for this). All the phases except the last tend to be so short it works pretty well and I rarely run out of turns. I use my sp for DP in that case.

[EllisDee37]

Less important, but also there, Clerics have 1 more point of Wisdom available, and Turn Undead plus it's various offshoots.

The major offshoots of turn undead (RS1&2) are off the table.

So let's turn that around: what does FvS offer that Cleric doesn't do better?

Between 1000 and 1500 more spell points, mainly. Also +60 spell power for blade barrier (compared to 0 for clerics) and +10% light damage. And wings, since the aura-less cleric I was asking is in shirardi.

[sandypaws]

The major offshoots of turn undead (RS1&2) are off the table.

Between 1000 and 1500 more spell points, mainly. Also +60 spell power for blade barrier (compared to 0 for clerics) and +10% light damage. And wings, since the aura-less cleric I was asking is in shirardi.

Better saves and hp too, iirc.

I still prefer my clerics though. #(*$&# snooty holier-than-thou fvses.

[EllisDee37]

Better saves and hp too, iirc.

I still prefer my clerics though. #(*$&# snooty holier-than-thou fvses.

Me too, and by a country mile, but mainly for aura (and to a lesser extent burst.)

Would you still prefer clerics if you couldn't take radiant servant?

[sandypaws]

Me too, and by a country mile, but mainly for aura (and to a lesser extent burst.)

Would you still prefer clerics if you couldn't take radiant servant?

Probably not. I rely very, very heavily on aura to let me do other things without worrying about dying. Currently having quite a bit of fun offensive-casting in shiradi/primal.

The enhanced spell selection is nice, but for me it really is the aura and the bursts, especially since my next exploratory build is some sort of silly charisma-based cleric-paladin with defensive stances (17/3 split maybe? for post enhancement pass). (Edit: Nuts, looks like you need pallie 6 to even enter defensive stance. Blech, back to the drawing board) Anyone know if you can be in the paladin defensive stances and in primal's avatar of nature mode simultaneously? Would probably need to go helf with monk dillie for healing amp, which is regrettable. Back to wearing the spider mask 24/7.

Incidentally, the changes to spellpower and crits seem like clerics are going to get quite a nice buff, assuming we can figure out how to work in the skill point reqs.

[eecsman]

.... (Edit: Nuts, looks like you need pallie 6 to even enter defensive stance. Blech, back to the drawing board) ...

Actually, you only need 1 Pally level to get the Sacred Defense stance. (Don't know if this is WAI, the fighter Stalwart Defense stance does require Fighter 6). I've created a few toons on Lamannia just to play around with S&B builds.

[sandypaws]

Actually, you only need 1 Pally level to get the Sacred Defense stance. (Don't know if this is WAI, the fighter Stalwart Defense stance does require Fighter 6). I've created a few toons on Lamannia just to play around with S&B builds.

Oh boy. Oh boy. Ohboyohboyohboy. This is going to be a very, very fun enhancement update for clerics.

[Carpone]

Anyone know if you can be in the paladin defensive stances and in primal's avatar of nature mode simultaneously? Would probably need to go helf with monk dillie for healing amp, which is regrettable.

It works fine on live. Not sure why you'd choose a paladin splash over monk. Shintao Defensive Strikes + Iron Skin + Twilight (120 Radiance, 114 Devotion) = 50 PRR, and you get another 50 PRR while in Avatar of Nature form. Radiant Servant aura constantly refills your spirit and provides excellent healing while in tree form. When you drop out of treeform, then throw a mass cure/burst to get your team back to full. Rinse and repeat. It's very effective in a group setting, and provides you with another soloing capability.

[Teelk_Jafffa]

Please tell me the developers are planning on adding this line to the Favored Soul tree. This would make playing a casting Favored Soul viable again.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Please tell me the developers are planning on adding this line to the Favored Soul tree. This would make playing a casting Favored Soul viable again.

FvS does not need this tree. AoV just needs a couple SLA and then it'll be fine. Let the casting Clerics have something of their own, seriously.

[dlsidhe]

With the addition of the Necrotic Burst SLA, you can have some serious fun with a 15Wiz/5Clr multi. Tons of negative spellpower and critical chances, SLAs galore, and Necro DC boosts, with the survivability of a wraith-form PM.

[eachna_gislin]

Please tell me the developers are planning on adding this line to the Favored Soul tree. This would make playing a casting Favored Soul viable again.

Please DO NOT give this tree to Favored Souls.

Give Favored Souls their OWN new tree to enjoy, with their own SLAs.

[eachna_gislin]

Me too, and by a country mile, but mainly for aura (and to a lesser extent burst.)

Would you still prefer clerics if you couldn't take radiant servant?

I would. Clerics have a more flexible spell choices and I actually make use of those choices.

Once I hit epics I don't really use either the aura or burst (in fact I often forget to activate the aura in the heated parts of raids).

I heal single targets (tanks or peeps standing on their own) with Renewal and Rejuvenation Cocoon, filled in with heal scrolls. I almost never cast single target heal or cure spells anymore. It doesn't matter how many sp I have, it's just too expensive to use those spells.

I heal groups with mass heal, or cycling through my mass spells (depending on the incoming damage). As long as I'm not cycling through all my mass spells, I have enough sp on a cleric to spam mass heal and do damage.

My extra/leftover sp are used to do damage. Granted, Favored Souls get a smiting line, but clerics are going to get all kinds of casting boosts from Divine Disciple. My days of being a Radiant are due to end with the enhancement pass (I'll probably keep the burst for the lowbie benefits and the built in restoration), but I won't be TRing into Favored Souls. My clerics will happily stay clerics (at least as long as warpriest is also decent).

The players who want their cleric to be more than a "just a healbot" will prefer other trees. That being said, healbots will still have their place. Both people just starting out, and experienced players who want excellent raid healers who don't need a lot of "work" will find Radiants will be their best choice.

[MangLord]

Just my personal opinion, but I feel like dark magic should be weaker than light. I never understood the draw of playing an evil character. We're supposed to be heroes yeah?

Divine casters have needed a lot of love for a long time. My last life as a favored soul was a rollercoaster. It started out really crummy, then was so great from level 12 to 18, then hit a brick wall when I started fighting drow at level 20. Granted, I had no past life caster boosts, but please throw me a bone and let my spells hit more than 60% of the time. It's frustrating whiffing a death spell entirely, having the warriors evade though my blade barrier and then only getting 450dam on the next attempt as the necromancer is level draining me into oblivion, where I then go into survival mode and jump in circles spamming heals and greater restorations.

So thank you for trying to make divines more viable and not just barbarian nannies.