How about allowing us to have 6 smaller trees?

[psteen1]

Perhaps the ship has already sailed, and everyone has a million suggestions here already.

I would like to suggest the screen displaying 1 larger racial tree (as it is now), but then six smaller trees that could fit over the current real estate of the three class trees. Each class tree can be cut in half by creating a "general" class tree that can hold all of those things that every cleric or ranger or arti should have. Favored enemy, rune arm charging, and pet enhancements are those that come to mind of the top of my head. The point requirements of the prestige trees can be satisfied by taking points from the general tree.

So in summary, 1 racial tree + 6 smaller class trees would give a lot more flexibility to the system.

[Deadlock]

This and lots of alternatives were mooted when the structure was first discussed.

It's long sailed.

Lets focus on getting the best from the structure as we have it.

[oweieie]

There is no "best" from the structure we have. Some manager that was dropped on his head when a baby made it because it looked pretty without any regard for how it would work. There isn't even a "class" tree, just prestige trees.

It is completely ridiculous. For monks they've taken the abilities that any monk can get and randomly tossed them into the 3 different trees, and priced them so high you can't even get them making it impossible to even make your current character with the new system. It's not much different for a lot of classes. Likewise the races have such high costs on them you need to buy a ton of utter garbage just to get to the enhancements you already had which had no "race" pre-req before such as human healing amp or half-elf dilettante.

If they want to alienate a lot of their older hard-core players while achieving NO positive result with this completely arbitrary change, then this is exactly how to do it. And christ, how the heck does treating disease and applying bandages make you better at casting spells which channel energy from the negative plane? There is a REASON why it is cross-class to wizards, it's because it has NOTHING to do with casting spells. How far up their anus did they have to shove their heads to come up with this vomit?

[psteen1]

There is no "best" from the structure we have. Some manager that was dropped on his head when a baby made it because it looked pretty without any regard for how it would work. There isn't even a "class" tree, just prestige trees.

It is completely ridiculous. For monks they've taken the abilities that any monk can get and randomly tossed them into the 3 different trees, and priced them so high you can't even get them making it impossible to even make your current character with the new system. It's not much different for a lot of classes. Likewise the races have such high costs on them you need to buy a ton of utter garbage just to get to the enhancements you already had which had no "race" pre-req before such as human healing amp or half-elf dilettante.

If they want to alienate a lot of their older hard-core players while achieving NO positive result with this completely arbitrary change, then this is exactly how to do it. And christ, how the heck does treating disease and applying bandages make you better at casting spells which channel energy from the negative plane? There is a REASON why it is cross-class to wizards, it's because it has NOTHING to do with casting spells. How far up their anus did they have to shove their heads to come up with this vomit?

Perhaps worded a little strong... but yeah, in general I agree. Other games in the past have scrambled and made major changes after systems hadn't worked. This is not Turbine's standard path, though, I have to agree with that...

[emptysands]

Maybe copy and modify the ED UI - use vertical tabs.

It does mean you can not see all the trees at once, but it gives the option of having more than 1+3 trees.

Extra room for more trees, also means they could include "general" classes trees again in the design.

[12201]

There is no "best" from the structure we have. Some manager that was dropped on his head when a baby made it because it looked pretty without any regard for how it would work. There isn't even a "class" tree, just prestige trees.

It is completely ridiculous. For monks they've taken the abilities that any monk can get and randomly tossed them into the 3 different trees, and priced them so high you can't even get them making it impossible to even make your current character with the new system. It's not much different for a lot of classes. Likewise the races have such high costs on them you need to buy a ton of utter garbage just to get to the enhancements you already had which had no "race" pre-req before such as human healing amp or half-elf dilettante.

If they want to alienate a lot of their older hard-core players while achieving NO positive result with this completely arbitrary change, then this is exactly how to do it. And christ, how the heck does treating disease and applying bandages make you better at casting spells which channel energy from the negative plane? There is a REASON why it is cross-class to wizards, it's because it has NOTHING to do with casting spells. How far up their anus did they have to shove their heads to come up with this vomit?

Guy your focusing on the negative for monks right now. You do understand there gonna be changing ap restrictions before it hits live right? if you read you'd have known that, I love this new system so many possibilities, If they only give me 5 more ap i can get touch of death AND kukando as a dark monk, That was never possible before so why complain? i can have ninjaspy and shintao at the same time which is a new plus for monks, i could have that 100% double strike WITH kukando and the 30% more damage with sense weakness? the damage forget about it i love this new system and all you whiners dont want to read dev posts and understand its only going to get better you think alot of the stuffs garbage but have you even opened your eyes to read what any of it does? think of ANY scenario where its beneficial? i mean i thought of several different NEW multi classed builds that will work greater now because you only need 5 levels for it to work. i cant wait for my monk to have all this good stuff once they raise the AP cap to be enough for these 2 trees, their idea is to be able to do 3 different trees they are going to obviously change ap to fit this structure they dont want you maxing them all out no thats to much freedom but they want to give you enough for very creative structured multi class builds with 10/5/5. New plus to monks if you didnt know this already all stances are now given as feats, About **** time right? no more needing certain stats to get grandmaster stances there all given to you by the level u deserve them. So no more griping open your eyes and brain to the newer possibilities things people arent thinking of you know with this system multiclassing couldnt be any better in less you want more core skills then u work around that.

[EllisDee37]

The interface on alpha as it is right now easily supports 5 trees, so that's my vote. Expand it to 5.

[oweieie]

Guy your focusing on the negative for monks right now. You do understand there gonna be changing ap restrictions before it hits live right?

I'm focusing on the reality that existing builds are being destroyed for no reason and some very nonsensical choices are being made at Turbine and that very very little that hits Lama gets fixed before it goes live.

I love this new system so many possibilities,

Wrongly implying the old system didn't.

If they only give me 5 more ap i can get touch of death AND kukando as a dark monk, That was never possible before so why complain?

If only they give you more points you can do stuff you can't do? What sort of an argument is that?

You CAN have touch of death AND void 4 AND max heal amp NOW. However this possibility will be GONE. You can't even have TWO of them.

And no one gives a **** about Kukando.

New plus to monks if you didnt know this already all stances are now given as feats, About **** time right?

And despite this... you still don't have enough AP to buy the things you already have. So... the net result is that you may as well make a fighter instead of a monk and use the extra feats to buy the stances. There is no reason to take monk past 5 or 6. It doesn't give free feats every 2 levels.

no more needing certain stats to get grandmaster stances there all given to you by the level u deserve them.

The stat requirements were trivial to reach. They were all stats you use anyway, dex for TWF, str because, you know, you're a melee class, con, same thing, wis, because all your dcs are off it. So again, have to scratch my head at how you think this is buying you anything at all with the new system. It's not like you had have have CHR for them or something.

So no more griping open your eyes and brain to the newer possibilities things people arent thinking of you know with this system multiclassing couldnt be any better in less you want more core skills then u work around that.

You need to take off your fanboi hat and realize at best things are getting different, not better. You can multiclass just fine in the current system. The new system is different possibilities, not more, not better. In fact, often much worse.

[shadereaper33]

A couple points:

-First, the dev's have stated that they intentionally set the AP costs of the enhancements at the high end of the scale, with the intention of gauging our response to the system. That way they can look at the feedback, and make changes to reduce AP costs of enhancements, allowing us more versatility. So, after getting our feedback on the trees, costs of enhancements will go down and we can get more of what we want.

-Second, just because some people don't care about a certain ability, doesn't mean that no one cares about that ability. I, for one, make great use of monk abilities like kukan-do. Sorry if you don't use your class to its fullest potential.

-Third, the change of monk stances from enhancements to feats is a bigger impact than some people are giving it credit for. Sure, there are some people who have full +5 tomes on all of their stats, and can easily meet the 18 requirement for all 4 stances. Not that they have enough AP to get all 4 stances on live right now. With this change, you will get all 4 stances at grand master tier, regardless of your stats, and without having to spend any AP on them whatsoever. To put that in terms of what we have on live, it costs 9 ap per stance to get to grandmaster. So, the devs are basically giving us the equivalent of 36 ap's worth of live enhancements as feats on lammania. Kind of a big deal.

Finally, for those of you who are so certain that these upcoming changes are just going to completely and utterly ruin the game, do us all a favor. Leave. Preferably now. Alternately, you could choose to look at the new system, and then provide actual, useful feedback on the aspects of the system you like, and the aspects that you dislike or think could use improvement. Simply saying that the new system is bad and will just ruin everyone's characters is about as far from useful as you can actually get.

[oweieie]

-First, the dev's have stated that they intentionally set the AP costs of the enhancements at the high end of the scale, with the intention of gauging our response to the system. That way they can look at the feedback, and make changes to reduce AP costs of enhancements, allowing us more versatility. So, after getting our feedback on the trees, costs of enhancements will go down and we can get more of what we want.

The devs say a lot of things. But what you fail to grasp is the expense isn't in the individual cost, which, in many cases, is ONE. They aren't going lower than that. The problem is that you have to invest a huge amount of AP into a tree to get something that took NO investment in before.

The reason for this is the trees. And just like how the destinies were driven by some manager falling in love with a piece of art, causing everyone and their brother to loathe having to traverse the tree to get to Shiradi or what have you, we are going to 100% be stuck with 4 narrow trees that force useful things to require buying huge amounts of garbage.

To max out halfing sneak attack used to be a whopping 20 AP, a ridiculous amount this update should have addressed which caused many halflings who wanted the sneak attack to only take tier 3 for 12 points.

You simply can't even get +4 anymore! You can at least get the +3 people were getting for 12 for the same price... except, no. It's actually 22 points.

Yes, for that 22 points you do get a couple things that are decent too, the +2 to saves, fine, not horrible, but the fact I HAVE to buy it is. The hero's companion, 5 charges of 1 minute, ****, 3 wasted AP, the dex, again, some people want it some don't, I sure don't.

So I'm sure Turbine is thinking... it's still 12 points for 3 sneak attack. But we're all thinking... MY GOD it's 22 points for 3 sneak attack and a buttload of things I don't want.

This is typical of most if not all the races and the majority of classes. We are effectively going from a system with 1 tree and something like 50 width to 4 trees with 5 width and it is like wedging a basketball player's foot into a little girls ballet slipper.

-Second, just because some people don't care about a certain ability, doesn't mean that no one cares about that ability. I, for one, make great use of monk abilities like kukan-do. Sorry if you don't use your class to its fullest potential.

Yes, that's nice, pretend you're effective using 25 ki to do what I do with 15 with stunning fist, with a higher land rate, while using the gear slot you waste on CHR for more survivability or DPS. That isn't using the class to it's fullest potential, that is being in the bottom 10% of players. The enhancement pass should be fixing garbage like Kukendo.

-Third, the change of monk stances from enhancements to feats is a bigger impact than some people are giving it credit for. Sure, there are some people who have full +5 tomes on all of their stats, and can easily meet the 18 requirement for all 4 stances. Not that they have enough AP to get all 4 stances on live right now. With this change, you will get all 4 stances at grand master tier, regardless of your stats, and without having to spend any AP on them whatsoever. To put that in terms of what we have on live, it costs 9 ap per stance to get to grandmaster. So, the devs are basically giving us the equivalent of 36 ap's worth of live enhancements as feats on lammania. Kind of a big deal.

Wrong, you can get all stances currently. Most people don't bother getting more than 1 or 2 because they don't use them all.

Wrong, first lifers with +2 tomes can qualify for all stances. But again, most don't care about getting all 4. Getting void 4 and capstone is worth only mastering in two. However now the choice will be between void 4 and touch of death and heal amp... any one of which is worth far more than the difference between master and grandmaster in stance.

Since most people would rather spend their AP elsewhere rather than to grandmaster with the current system it shows that these feats are really only worth a couple AP tops. Yes, it's nice as auto grants, but again, the effective AP cost of everything else has gone up so ridiculously high due to tiering and separate trees that we are ending up with far less than we had despite the stances being free.

Finally, for those of you who are so certain that these upcoming changes are just going to completely and utterly ruin the game, do us all a favor. Leave. Preferably now. Alternately, you could choose to look at the new system, and then provide actual, useful feedback on the aspects of the system you like, and the aspects that you dislike or think could use improvement. Simply saying that the new system is bad and will just ruin everyone's characters is about as far from useful as you can actually get.

Turbine loves fanbois like you. Whatever they shovel out you lap up. But don't worry, you'll get your wish. A lot of players WILL be leaving when this update hits. Turbine will listen to people like you who are utterly wrong about how it works now, and utterly wrong about how good the new system is and make an even bigger trainwreck of the game. A lot of people quit from U14, but a lot decided to give Turbine another chance, and for those people, this cluster**** will be the last.

[kingfisher]

There is no "best" from the structure we have. Some manager that was dropped on his head when a baby made it because it looked pretty without any regard for how it would work. There isn't even a "class" tree, just prestige trees.

It is completely ridiculous. For monks they've taken the abilities that any monk can get and randomly tossed them into the 3 different trees, and priced them so high you can't even get them making it impossible to even make your current character with the new system. It's not much different for a lot of classes. Likewise the races have such high costs on them you need to buy a ton of utter garbage just to get to the enhancements you already had which had no "race" pre-req before such as human healing amp or half-elf dilettante.

If they want to alienate a lot of their older hard-core players while achieving NO positive result with this completely arbitrary change, then this is exactly how to do it. And christ, how the heck does treating disease and applying bandages make you better at casting spells which channel energy from the negative plane? There is a REASON why it is cross-class to wizards, it's because it has NOTHING to do with casting spells. How far up their anus did they have to shove their heads to come up with this vomit?

#nailedit

[EllisDee37]

oweieie and I are on completely different levels. He's endgame all the way, while I'm essentially a casual flower-sniffer who never enters (or even wants to enter) EE.

He's 100% right, and not just for endgamers like him but also "EH warriors" like me.