A Melee Power Gamer's View of the Enhancements

[emptysands]

Good work.

[bhgiant]

Excellent write up. I would like to add a counterpoint in the spirit of good open critical feedback. I will only comment on the AA and Tempest lines as they are the only ones I've played with extensively.

Bleed them out
No noticeable DPS gain.

I agree. It's not great. The damage needs to be amped up somehow. Doing it as a % of the damage you dealt that hit is a good idea.

Action Boost
I would keep the AP cost at 6 for all 3 tiers and simply have it grant both boosts.

Can't agree with that. You're asking to give 20AP worth of boosts for 6 AP. I do agree, you should be able to take both of these though. I suggest separating them out similar to the Favored Enemy Defense line.

Critical Accuracy/Damage
+1/2/3 to confirm Critical Hits.
Complete waste for the 6 AP cost

Almost agreed. It's way too expensive.

I would combine both enhancements for a total cost of 3 AP.

Way too cheap. 3 inherant seeker should be expensive. Make the Accuracy 1AP each and the Damage 2AP.

Elaborate Parry
I suggest changing this into a stance (think power attack or combat exerptise but for duel wielders).

Disagree. We already have too many stances. Just make the stacks disappear 1 at a time instead of all at once...

You would also need to code it to go above the 25 cap for it to see use in Epic play.

...and do this.

The Growing Storm
*I really like this skill as is but would love to see it turned into a stance.

Disagree. Just make the stacks disappear 1 at a time to make it last longer. That way people can use this WITH power attack.

A Thousand Cuts
Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/3/5[W] damage. You gain +30/60/90 Melee Doublestrike chance for 6 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes.)
*Great idea with this ability and synergizes perfectly with Dance of Death for clearing out packs of trash. The one suggestion I would make with this skill is if it only lasts 6 seconds the cooldown should be 1 minute or make it last 15 seconds for a cooldown of 2 minutes. If it is meant to be a "burn phase" or burst ability for boss fights then make it a 5 minute cooldown with a 30 second duration.

Absolutely 100% agree.

Arcane Archer
Core Abilities

I find all of these to be perfectly fine the way they are.

True Strike
*This is a skill that is worthless and makes people hate clicky attacks. It has no noticeable impact.

I would be ok with just doing away with it. It feels like it's there just because it has to be.

Dispelling Shot
*Great idea and if it has no DC it will actually be used. I suggest you make it able to dispell the Sacrifice buff from Mistress of Agonies to see the biggest praise. I would also like to see it dispell harmful effects if used on an ally.

I agree that it's an amazing idea. I think there should be things that can't be dispelled (especially since this is a no save effect). Making it dispell harmful effects on an ally would be OP. Keep it the way it is I say. Stripping Mistresses of their deathward so I can assassinate them will be sweet sweet vengeance.

Force Arrows
*I would add on to this skill a Disintigration effect on a natural 20 with Improved Elemental Arrows enhancement. It would fit thematically and give the people that don't like clicky attacks their Slayer Arrows back.

Disagree. This ability is great just as it is. Adding disintegration on a 20 would give it too much power and way to early.

Inferno Shot
Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +0/1/2[W] damage. On Hit: Target gains 1 stack of Inferno (Target takes 1d6 fire damage every 2 second for 6 seconds. This effect can stack 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.).
*This is skill is the reason people hate clicky attacks. Having to hit an attack every 3 seconds for an unnoticeably gain and it costs 6 SP. I would rewrite the enhancement to the top of the tree and have it fire off a Delayed Blast Fireball centered on all targets hit (like fiery detonation). The enhancement would look like this :
Ranged Archery Attack: Perform a ranged attack. On Hit: A ball of flame erupts from your target(s) simulating the Delayed Blast Fireball spell, causing an explosion of flame that deals 1d3+3 points of fire damage per character level up to a maximum damage of 25d3+75 at character level 25 to all targets around it.
Have the damage be modified by spell power and feats such as maximize and empower and able to crit. This would give Elven Wizards a viable reason to go AA. Make it a multi enhancement selector for DC to be based off of Wis or Dex or Int to suite as many AA builds as possible. Make the DC 10 + Character Level + Int/Dex/Wisdom. This will ensure that the skill sees use in Epic Play.

I mostly agree and like this idea. It definitely needs to be changed, no doubt. After playing with this ability for a while, I can confirm it is 100% horrible.
I would say instead, just make it 1d3+3 per level but keep it as a 6 seconds dot that can stack 3 times and procs every 2 seconds. At level 25, that's 375 damage every 2 seconds with full stacks. Adds meaningful but not gamebreaking damage.

Action Boost
*I would change the two boosts available to Sprint and Spell Power and have it grant both.

These boosts aren't great... but, they can be useful and at lower levels, 15 elemental resistance for 20 seconds can be pretty good. I say just leave these the way they are. Also, giving both for 6 AP is too cheap (as discussed above).

Shattermantle Shot

I LOVE the idea of an AA and caster coordinating this ability and Dispelling Shot to help with their DC's. At first glance it looks lackluster but after playing with it for a while, I can just imagine the possibilities here.

Terror Arrows
*Fearing arrows are the worst thing that has been designed and no uses them past their first couple months of playing DDO. I suggest changing this imbue into a clicky spell similar to my fireball suggestion.

Disagree. They are super awesome when you are soloing in heroic levels. You only have to run with a group once with this on to realize you should never do that again. Keep this the way it is.

Soul Magic
Every time you strike an enemy with your bow, you gain 1 temporary spell point. This effect can stack up to 10 times.
*Great idea but falls short. With an increased use of an AAs SP through clicky attacks this will not be enough to mitigate the extreme drain... I would change this to be 1 permanent SP gained back per arrow.

Absolutely disagree. Giving unlimited SP regeneration is not a great idea, even if it is just 1 SP at a time. After testing this for a couple hours, this ability does a great job of mitigating SP costs very well just by itself. Keep in mind, the abilities are only 2-6sp each except for the Slaying Arrow which is 20sp but that's covered with Moonbow. The stacks last a full minute as well. Keep this just the way it is.

Banishing Arrows
Paralyzing Arrows
Smiting Arrows
*The AA tree is too bloated with imbue toggles and this would make a great candidate for a clicky arrow attack.

Disagree. I think they have a good balance between the two in this line. Also, the imbues allow you to tailor your attacks to enemies without having to worry about clickies. I like that the new AA line is geared more toward utility and versatility, different imbues for different situations rather than just running around with slayer on all the time.

Arrow of Slaying
Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +250 damage. (This damage can be multiplied by critical hits.) (Cost: 20 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds.)
*I would move this ability to the top Deepwood Sniper with no manacost and name it Sniper shot. If you are stealthed make it auto critical. The AA tree should be focused on casting spells through arrows and less about Raw Damage.

I'm still torn about this one. It really seems more of a Deepwood sniper ability. If I were to revise it, I would switch Slayer Arrow with Headshot. Give Deepwood Stalker's Headshot ability the 250 added damage before crit and let slayer arrows do a flat 500 additional damage.

[EllisDee37]

Nice analysis, I've enjoyed reading them.

My only request is that you bump the thread when you add another write-up; the fighter one snuck in there without me getting any thread notification.

[RobbinB]

Your suggestion to Arcane Archer's Imbuements make the others completely obsolete.
Force arrows with disintegration? What would be the point of the other elemental stances? There is no way to mitigate that, so it's full damage every time unless the mob has percentage based damage reduction against all magical sources such as Crateos or someone with Radiant forcefield, and disintegration is un-typed. The green steel effect only has a 2% to proc, which also makes green steel disintegration items pointless.

I also went ??? when I saw the suggestion of force arrows with disintegration, because it would pretty much obsolete the elemental arrows line.

I've been suggesting for years that arcane archer needed a revamp to make all the possible arrows have situational utility and that slayer arrows could become something available in a more general sense (by feat for example). So I definitely support much of what they are trying to do here.

I still wonder about the elemental arrows line. It seems to me that force arrows are better than any elemental arrow unless you take the final tier to get the specialized effect. But that's sort of the problem with the existing system - just as everyone who currently goes after slayer arrows spends exactly the same ap (and most of what you gain is summarily ignored), it seems that in the proposed system everyone who thinks elemental arrows are what they are after will basically be spending all the ap in that column. Might it not make more sense if it was grab a single element (excluding the opposed element), grab a secondary element (again excluding the opposed element), then enhance the 2 elements you chose with a final ap expense. Less ap spent overall but more variety in what people end up with.

Also, I'm not sure I see the point of taking the elemental arrows line at all. If I understand the tiers correctly then the force and terror line is needed to get to slayer arrows, so that's ap you "have" to spend. So from an ap perspective isn't the elemental arrows line an additional very large ap cost? Comparing what you actually get to just force arrows is it really worth it to invest that kind of ap?

(Or am i missing something? - not sure i fully understand these new trees yet)

[bhgiant]

Also, I'm not sure I see the point of taking the elemental arrows line at all. If I understand the tiers correctly then the force and terror line is needed to get to slayer arrows, so that's ap you "have" to spend. So from an ap perspective isn't the elemental arrows line an additional very large ap cost? Comparing what you actually get to just force arrows is it really worth it to invest that kind of ap?

Nice, I didn't even notice that. I absolutely agree. There is NO reason to take the elemental line until you can get the final tier. It's 10AP that sees no usefulness over force arrows until then. I would propose that the elemental tier be changed to increase the die step at each tier so something like tier 1 1d6, tier 2 1d8, tier 2 1d10, tier 4 1d10+crit and keep the final tier the exact same way.

[Taojeff]

quite a long write-up
should have separated each PrE into a Post on its own (freaking tower of text)

anyways, there are a lot of suggestions you make that i absolutely do not agree with
while there are some that i definitely agree with

altho i'm seriously too lazy to type everything out =_=;;;;

the biggest gripe i have about how people make suggestion is that they're balancing everything against superinflated stats of ENDGAME
which means in order for it to seem "appropriate" by endgame, the suggestions try to make each ability extremely powerful
which trivializes most things before endgame, and boosts power creep increment speed by x-fold =\

Agreed. I have posted suggestions in several other threads saying something similar. There are ways to make abilities useful without being overpowered also...

[Willan]

I also went ??? when I saw the suggestion of force arrows with disintegration, because it would pretty much obsolete the elemental arrows line.

I've been suggesting for years that arcane archer needed a revamp to make all the possible arrows have situational utility and that slayer arrows could become something available in a more general sense (by feat for example). So I definitely support much of what they are trying to do here.

I still wonder about the elemental arrows line. It seems to me that force arrows are better than any elemental arrow unless you take the final tier to get the specialized effect. But that's sort of the problem with the existing system - just as everyone who currently goes after slayer arrows spends exactly the same ap (and most of what you gain is summarily ignored), it seems that in the proposed system everyone who thinks elemental arrows are what they are after will basically be spending all the ap in that column. Might it not make more sense if it was grab a single element (excluding the opposed element), grab a secondary element (again excluding the opposed element), then enhance the 2 elements you chose with a final ap expense. Less ap spent overall but more variety in what people end up with.

Also, I'm not sure I see the point of taking the elemental arrows line at all. If I understand the tiers correctly then the force and terror line is needed to get to slayer arrows, so that's ap you "have" to spend. So from an ap perspective isn't the elemental arrows line an additional very large ap cost? Comparing what you actually get to just force arrows is it really worth it to invest that kind of ap?

(Or am i missing something? - not sure i fully understand these new trees yet)

You have to remember that disintegration when typed as a spell has a fort save for half damage and stacks with disintegration from items. The other arrows will still be used if they add spell like abilities as clickys for AA. Frost arrows will be used while clearing trash to give your PK arrow and Hold arrow a better chance to land since it lowers saves. Shocking arrows will be used on Raid bosses to give the whole raid 10% more damage. Acid arrows will be used against high fort mobs and bosses (think skeletons and truthful one) to give more group wide damage.

Basically I am trying to get the new Arcane Archer tree closer to the P&P version with spell like abilities instead of DDOs arrow imbues. For reference here is the main draw of the Arcane Archer in P&P:

Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

By removing the extra imbue arrow stances from the tree and replacing them with spell like abilities we are much closer to the actual intent of the prestige class.

[Willan]

Excellent write up. I would like to add a counterpoint in the spirit of good open critical feedback. I will only comment on the AA and Tempest lines as they are the only ones I've played with extensively.

Can't agree with that. You're asking to give 20AP worth of boosts for 6 AP. I do agree, you should be able to take both of these though. I suggest separating them out similar to the Favored Enemy Defense line.

Way too cheap. 3 inherant seeker should be expensive. Make the Accuracy 1AP each and the Damage 2AP.

These boosts aren't great... but, they can be useful and at lower levels, 15 elemental resistance for 20 seconds can be pretty good. I say just leave these the way they are. Also, giving both for 6 AP is too cheap (as discussed above).

I truly believe that you should only be able to spend 41 AP total in a prestige enhancement tree. Passive benefits like seeker,flat damage, and additions to skills should be priced the same. Lets use the khopesh which has the best crit profile in the game as the example of why 3 seeker should be 3 AP. A khopesh has a crit multiplier of 3 and crits 20% of the time, in this case 3 seeker comes out to 1.8 damage a hit. Why is 3 AP for 1.8 damage a hit way too cheap when you get +1 hit & damage for 2 AP in the same tree?

Disagree. We already have too many stances. Just make the stacks disappear 1 at a time instead of all at once...

Disagree. Just make the stacks disappear 1 at a time to make it last longer. That way people can use this WITH power attack.

The truth of the matter is we only have 1 stance for melee characters, power attack. Precision is there as an option but with overwhelming critical requiring power attack I assure you over 90% of the melees in the game use power attack.

I suggested they be made stances because I want options other than power attack in my characters. It would fit the tree perfectly to have both a defensive stance option and offensive stance option. You also have to remember that Tempest is offered to drow as their racial tree. Pure drow rogues and paladins do not have the feats to always pick up power attack and it would be nice to have more options.

I agree that it's an amazing idea. I think there should be things that can't be dispelled (especially since this is a no save effect). Making it dispell harmful effects on an ally would be OP. Keep it the way it is I say. Stripping Mistresses of their deathward so I can assassinate them will be sweet sweet vengeance.

I really believe that arcane archers should have their arrows given the spell like ability treatment. Being able to dispel Hold + Otto's Irresistible Dance from allies is hardly game breaking. Mistresses would still be immune to assassinate because they are Red Named, not because they don't have death ward. I am not sure if the ability has no save or that is just a typo.

Disagree. This ability is great just as it is. Adding disintegration on a 20 would give it too much power and way to early.

The old Slayer Arrows damage was a static 500 on a 20. The disintigrate spell caps out at 4D30 + 120 or 240 damage. It would force arcane archers to itemize spell power and focus on Int/Dex/Wis to get the save high enough to do the same damage they have on live now. How is that overpowered?

I mostly agree and like this idea. It definitely needs to be changed, no doubt. After playing with this ability for a while, I can confirm it is 100% horrible.
I would say instead, just make it 1d3+3 per level but keep it as a 6 seconds dot that can stack 3 times and procs every 2 seconds. At level 25, that's 375 damage every 2 seconds with full stacks. Adds meaningful but not gamebreaking damage.

I really believe that arcane archers should have their arrows given the spell like ability treatment. Being able to cast Delayed Blast Fireball through an arrow was my favorite ability in P&P.

I LOVE the idea of an AA and caster coordinating this ability and Dispelling Shot to help with their DC's. At first glance it looks lackluster but after playing with it for a while, I can just imagine the possibilities here.

Disagree. They are super awesome when you are soloing in heroic levels. You only have to run with a group once with this on to realize you should never do that again. Keep this the way it is.

Imagine the possibilities if, instead of doing all that work so your caster groupmate can cast Finger of Death reliably and steal all the glory, you can follow it up with an arrow imbued with Phantasmal Killer.

Absolutely disagree. Giving unlimited SP regeneration is not a great idea, even if it is just 1 SP at a time. After testing this for a couple hours, this ability does a great job of mitigating SP costs very well just by itself. Keep in mind, the abilities are only 2-6sp each except for the Slaying Arrow which is 20sp but that's covered with Moonbow. The stacks last a full minute as well. Keep this just the way it is.

If the developers move forward with turning many of the imbues that won't be used into spell like abilities an Arcane Archer that isnt a pure Caster Elf will be out of mana after 10-20 shots. My ranger at 25 with a Topaz of +200 Power only has 480 mana. A Kensei AA will only have 200 mana. Recouping about 80 mana while manyshotting a single monster every 2 minutes is hardly as gamebreaking as you believe at first glance. If you are worried about a pure elven Cleric having infinite mana in raids, please keep in mind that the arrow rate of fire is incredibly slow compared to melee and they cannot fire arrows and cast heals at the same time. If you think the same cleric is going to have crazy mana regen with manyshotting groups of mobs please keep in mind that many shot with improved precise shot takes 5 feats out of the 8 total you get at level 25 and requires a 19 dexterity score.

Disagree. I think they have a good balance between the two in this line. Also, the imbues allow you to tailor your attacks to enemies without having to worry about clickies. I like that the new AA line is geared more toward utility and versatility, different imbues for different situations rather than just running around with slayer on all the time.

The 4 imbues stemming from force arrows are lazy and unimaginative. Each one of the effects mimics a common item enchantment. If I wanted to paralyze, fear, smite, or banish my enemies I would simply swap to the corresponding bow and not change my arrow imbue. They have the ability to change those imbues to useful spell like abilities and it will be a **** shame if people settle for something they already have easy access to.

I'm still torn about this one. It really seems more of a Deepwood sniper ability. If I were to revise it, I would switch Slayer Arrow with Headshot. Give Deepwood Stalker's Headshot ability the 250 added damage before crit and let slayer arrows do a flat 500 additional damage.

I definately see the opportunity for Deepwood Sniper to become raw ranged damage focused and Arcane Archer to be more spell like ability focused.

[RobbinB]

Nice, I didn't even notice that. I absolutely agree. There is NO reason to take the elemental line until you can get the final tier. It's 10AP that sees no usefulness over force arrows until then. I would propose that the elemental tier be changed to increase the die step at each tier so something like tier 1 1d6, tier 2 1d8, tier 2 1d10, tier 4 1d10+crit and keep the final tier the exact same way.

After playing along on Lamannia a bit there may be a reason to take elemental arrows - simply to fill the ap quota you need to get to the higher tier abilities. If I decided I wanted to get to slayer arrows, it seemed to me that there wasn't a lot of good stuff that would actually add up to the prerequisite 40 ap spent. (A lot of the one-off arrows don't really appeal to me). I also noticed that going "deep" in one particular PRE means you can't get very much in others due to limited ap. So an AA that goes after slayer plus elemental spends a lot of AP. Where does that leave monkcher and bardcher? (without lots of AP to spend on their class stuff that seems to be where)

Personally, it seemed to me that just getting the three tiers of force arrows and the bottom row abilities (things like morphing and metalline arrows), but ignoring the entire elemental line and the other higher tier arrows (including slayer arrows), then going deep into DWS might be the best way to approach a pure ranged ranger.

Seems to be lots of complaints about the cost of many enhancements and the points spent on useless filler, and I have to agree with them.

And good suggestion about ramping up some of the elemental damage. Maybe you only choose a single element at the bottom, and then ramp it up at each tier (with maybe a sideways direction for a second element which is also ramped up at the same time without additional ap). Again, you would have to choose one or 2 elements from the 4, but they would be more powerful at the same or less ap spent, making them more worthwile to go after.

[Cetus]

Great write up on the kensei tree. Just one comment regarding the tactics, it would be much more desireable if they didn't share the cooldown, because that completely nullifies the pre-requisite feat in practice. I'd like to be able to use my feat and the enhancement in succession.

[shadereaper33]

My thoughts on the OP's post:

first, I disagree completely with your suggestion to limit the maximum points one can spend in a tree. That should never, ever, under any circumstances be implemented.

Not every tree in the ranger PrE's needs to have +1 devotion per point spent. I can sort of understand having that in the AA tree, as it has some relation to spell casting, but adding it to the martial-centric trees as well just doesn't make any sense.

Tempest:

your suggestion to implement superior two weapon fighting as an epic feat is a good idea, but it shouldn't cost rangers their free extra procs.

adding +2 strength to the existing capstone for tempest is too much. No other capstone gives +2 to 2 different stats, and that capstone in particular is good enough as is.

Arcane archer:

Again, adding multiple stats to a capstone seems like overkill to me.

Adding disintegration to the force arrows is too much. Aside from the fact that it isn't part of the elemental arrows tree, and that force isn't actually an element, the ability itself is already good enough. Force burst and ghost touch on any bow you equip is just fine.

Your changes to inferno shot are unnecessary. The skill works fine as is, and those who don't like to use clicky attacks can spend their AP elsewhere. It isn't a pre-req for anything, so there is no "need" to take it if you don't want it.

Changing terror arrows is a good idea. However, making it a clicky PK attack is not. I would prefer to see it remain a stance, but have the terror item effect.

Your suggested change to soul magic is far too powerful and unnecessary. The temp sp are indeed noticable and useful as it is, and giving an ability to shoot a bow at something to regen sp without limit would be horribly OP.

You complain about too many clicky abilities, but you seem to want to turn half of the stances into clicky abilities. It seems highly unnecessary to me. paralyzing arrows is another stance that I feel is just fine as is.

Removing slaying arrows from the AA tree will not, and should not, ever happen. Slaying arrows is one of the most iconic abilities out of the entire PrE, and the amount of uproar that would result from removing it would be insane. That said, I would not be opposed to a similar ability being added to the deepwood stalker tree.

runebow is a STACKING +2 hit and damage, as well as a STACKING +6 universal spell power. well deserving of it's place at the top of the tree.

deepwood stalker:

horizon shot: sneak attack dice are a core feature of rogues. giving out too much of it to other classes will serve as a proxy nerf to one of the core features of the rogue class. In just the DS core abilities, you currently can get 4d6 SA damage, and you want to add another 3d6? 7d6 SA damage from enhancements here compared to the rogue's 10d6 base doesn't sit well with me.

Your changes to aimed shot are just rediculous. Given that most bows are base 20/x3, 19-20/x3 with imp crit, this would be a shot at 9-20/x10. No, just no.

I disagree entirely with your suggested changes to hunter's mercy. I feel that the abiltiy is perfectly fine as is. The only suggestion I could see being made is to remove the sneak attack requirement for the extra damage.

adding +8 dex and wis to power surge is a bit silly, if you ask me. Not only does it not fit the theme of the ability, but a total +24 bonus to your stats for 1 minute? I mean really? Now, if they wanted to add a selector to allow you to pick between str, dex, and wis, I would be ok with that.

A good death is fine as is. Frankly, I think your suggestion here is actually a nerf.

Deadly strike is effectively a guaranteed critical whenever you want it. That certainly has uses in the right circumstances. such as if you are in fury of the wild and just hit adrenaline, use this attack for a guaranteed adrenaline crit. I think your suggested changes here are too much.

stalwart defender:

last stand: that 1d10 healing on hit would be affected by healing amp, and result in much higher numbers. Given that people make use of the unyielding sentinel stance that gives you 10 temp hp when you are hit, I think this is just fine as is.

[EllisDee37]

Not every tree in the ranger PrE's needs to have +1 devotion per point spent. I can sort of understand having that in the AA tree, as it has some relation to spell casting, but adding it to the martial-centric trees as well just doesn't make any sense.

Not having devotion available to tempests makes no sense whatsoever.

[hit_fido]

first, I disagree completely with your suggestion to limit the maximum points one can spend in a tree. That should never, ever, under any circumstances be implemented.

Agree with your disagreement. That really punishes a build that may be unlikely to find 39 AP worth of relevant enhancements in racial and the other trees. Probably even worse if the build is pure class. Why prohibit specialization if one wants to go that direction?

[EllisDee37]

The way I read it, he's saying no tree should have more than 41 points worth of stuff to take. As in, the 41st point you spend means you took every single thing in the tree.

I could be wrong, though.

[eonfreon]

Not every tree in the ranger PrE's needs to have +1 devotion per point spent. I can sort of understand having that in the AA tree, as it has some relation to spell casting, but adding it to the martial-centric trees as well just doesn't make any sense.

You're already thinking in the new terms, buying into the new "logic", and excluding everything that has come before up to this point. As if Rangers, in general, don't all have some relation to spell casting. There's nothing more inherently "Healing Devoted" about an AA over a Tempest.

Devotion is a Ranger enhancement, because all Rangers can heal. It has nothing to do with the PrE. Devotion existed before Tempests and AA ever came out. These abilities don't need to be split up into "PrE trees", the Devs have just decided that they should be.

Before general enhancements made up the bulk of the Enhancements, now they all have to fit into PrE trees, when it used to be the opposite. PrE's fit into the General "tree" of Enhancements and locked out any other PrE's.

Take the proposed Paladin Tree. The way Turbine nerfed the Defensive Stance into a Shield Defensive Stance makes it completely useless to me, since I'm a TWFer (plus they didn't even buff the Stance, they just made all of the things that used to function passively no longer function without a Shield equipped and they even made it worse than that judging by the Stalwart Defender and loss of Stance anytime you equip a scroll or wand or even throwing weapon), however I want to spend points in the "defender Tree". Not because I want anything to do with the Defender PrE but because that's where key parts of a Paladin build are. Extra Lay on Hands and Resistance Aura are kind of essential to my Paladin.

Heck, I'd even like to be able to spend more points in that tree because I need to make up for losing 80 Devotion and 30 HP from Paladin Devotion 4 and Paladin Toughness 3. The way I looked at it I can recover 26 hp, but only 26 Devotion. That's a heck of a nerf, just because they've decided that Devotion should be bought in tiny dribbles in a line that won't appeal to many people.

Devotion is not a "spellcasting thing". It's because Paladins and Rangers, no matter the PrE, have curative spells in their "spell books". All of them. And Devotion allows them to make it actually of use in the most difficult content. Currently I got 80 points of positive spellpower from Devotion. With the new system I'll have about 26. Even with Heal maxxed out (meaning I'm losing build points into Int or useful skills) and a Sustenance Item and some Wisdom (it's still a dump stat, the only dump stat I have) I'll get 23 Heal + 15 Sustenance Item + 5 Wis = 43 + 26 "devotion" = 69. 11 pts short. That's 11% loss. And I'm "paying" extra in build points to "only" lose that much.

Things like Devotion and other Base Class Enhancements should have stayed just that, base Class Enhancements. There was no need to bind them into PrE Trees. No need for "well Devotion's about spellcasting, so it makes sense that AA should get iit, not Tempests". Really? It's about healing. So I say if an AA chooses "slaying Arrows", the very antithesis of Healing, he should automatically have no positive spellpower whatsoever. It's makes a thematic sense, don't you think? After all, he's a Slayer not a Healer.

The base abilities should have their own trees. And the PrE's should be offshoots off it, like it is on Live. Not the other way around, like the Devs have decided for whatever reason.

[Willan]

The way I read it, he's saying no tree should have more than 41 points worth of stuff to take. As in, the 41st point you spend means you took every single thing in the tree.

I could be wrong, though.

You, Sir, have good reading comprehension. That is exactly what I meant when I wrote "make changes to total AP able to be spent in one tree to 41".