So... Anyone else with a dead build now?

[fmalfeas]

12/6/2? Don't you mean 13/5/2?

Because under the new system, 5 is the magic number (full access to class tree, minus some Core abilities), not 6. 5 is also the number to get 5 extra HP.

Gotta adapt, folks.

[FZTopaz]

I would be interested in hearing more about what 'viable' means in this circumstance.

I would love to know what viable means to you guys, since it apparently means different things. The characters I have built I was able to solo EH Gianthold quests with, the self sufficiant ones went through fine, the ones I didn't build to self heal (my deepwood sniper build) took a hire. All of them completed sufficiently. No, I wasn't getting max DPS out of my toons, but I completed, and it didn't take forever.

So... 58 aps for racial AA is not proof enough that as things stand *now* the builds using elf for AA are gone? What do you need? A hand that comes out of your screen and slaps you when you pick elf as your toon's race?

I built a half-elf healing cleric AA. I got my aura from the healing tree and got to third tier on AA. No, I didn't get slaying arrows, but with the build I have, he seems to be doing just fine. He'll probably be doing even better when the imbues are working for the racial AA. What he lacked in the upper tier arrows he made up for in new attacks from the enhancement tree, along with ED stuff and gear. With the proper augments, I was able to build a character that has virtually no problems in all but the hardest content...where he would probably be fine in a group.

Please go make something like 12/6/2 and come back to us.
Oh, and while you're at it, play with races and their racials and then come back to us.
And while you're at that too, try to build something actually useful instead of "viable" and come back to us.

I did that. The only thing I haven't touched yet is Warforged and halfing. I've played with the races, and the classes. I've made a few multi-class characters (14/6 cleric/fighter battle cleric, 16 arti/2 ranger/2 fighter Juggernaut copy, 15 ranger/5 cleric, and the cleric AA was a pure cleric).

Again, what is the difference between useful and viable? These are just as good as my old characters were...in fact...the ranger that I copied over from live (14 ranger/6 fighter tempest kensai) is actually MORE powerful now than before. Higher HP, hits harder, and had some points left over for defense in the stalwart tree.

I'm not saying the trees are perfect. I do believe that some things have too high of a cost. My wife would not stop complaining about her ranger she made with monk dillie and how she has to spend points on **** she doesn't want/need to get to the top tier. I felt the same way, but found ways around it that still made my build viable (and pretty **** useful).

So, if the toons I am making are NOT useful, yet they seem to get along just as good as my toons on live (or, in some cases, better!) then I would like to know what is wrong with my playstyle...or are you upset that you MIGHT not be able to solo EEs anymore?

[DeafeningWhisper]

I'm not saying the trees are perfect. I do believe that some things have too high of a cost.

This is pretty much my main problem, lets use my bardcher for example.

Right now I would need to move around 4/8 points from either Con or Str (or a combination of both) to fit spellcrafting and heal to be able to self-heal properly since they removed the devotion lines from the enhancement trees.

In live I can UMD, do traps, get all archery feats, some decent Str (42 with all my buffs) and some solid 600+ hps. Strong enough songs, slaying arrows, spellsinger II and reflex saves in the high 50s.

To keep my songs at the lvl they are now I would need 41 points in spellsinger, because as we have already seen in the cleric trees they didn't so much finish prestiges by adding the last missing tier of skills, nope they'll make the current tier 2 prestiges the cap for the class tree and call it "finished".

That leaves 39 points to put in AA, or rather 22 since I need 17 in racial core, not too painful since I can use some of the enhancements bur certainly not enough to warrant the huge investment into archer (stats, feats, 2 lvls of rangers and tomes)

The problem lies in this, in the new system multiclassing using racial class leaves you half way to nowhere. I will no longer be a good bard that can buff, do traps, UMD, self-heal and do decent ranged damage, nope I'll be either a good bard with subpar archery skills that will be able to do either self-heal or do traps, or a bad bard that can do some dps.

In live it took me the better part of a year to make my current bardcher build, a TR, quite a few hearts and tomes were needed, the fact the build no longer translates is rather painful to me.

To be frank, if I can't make this one toon at least close enough for me to recognise I'm leaving DDO...


P.S. this toon has never done an EE and likely never will (I don't find them fun), it's not about losing power but losing playstyle choices, it's not about "soloing EE", it's about having fun.

[voodoogroves]

The people really hit by this are going to be AAs, as they are the only PRE that can currrently max "two", providing the base class PREs extend up to 18/20 ish.

There's also going to be a "soft" loss where people who are in a class today that is only up to T2 of a PRE (on live) are going to feel like they are not quite "maxed" if they don't take the higher level abilities of their core PRE (like WC, which caps at 12 today).

[smatt]

As Iv'e said, I reserve everything I've said till I see more.....

As I'm not a build fantatic, who will spends every spare wakign moment thinking aobut and designing/building toons with every planner/spread sheet in the book.... My perspective comes from a wider total game view. And that is, are such sweeping changes godo or bad for hte game in total? I get the need for a revamped system in how we look at enhancements. I also see that at least ont he surface they're putting this stuff out there for us to see VERY early, an dat least according to them (devs) it's all up for change as time goes on. My main concerns ahve to do with how many current plaeyrs will bother to rebuild their characters rather than give up ont he game. Weigh in that it's looking like the chances of actually having to "pay" after being forced rebuild characters into vaibility/playability might just push out a few more. And of course this change make the game mroe appealing to a larger set of new players?

I don't know the answers to those questions...... I'm just an average longtime (6+ years), mid-40's DDO player, who really isn't a video game fanatic, running around trying every game that comes out, building "special" gaming rigs, obsessign over every skil point, every damage point, etc. But I think as far as DDO goes, my type is far more common in DDO than the later.... How will this sweeping change effect the demographic I'm in, at this stage in the game???

No then... The Devs just made a right turn... There's a few of you who better make it with them, lest your neck gets snapped....

[Postumus]

I would love to know what viable means to you guys, since it apparently means different things. The characters I have built I was able to solo EH Gianthold quests with, the self sufficiant ones went through fine, the ones I didn't build to self heal (my deepwood sniper build) took a hire. All of them completed sufficiently. No, I wasn't getting max DPS out of my toons, but I completed, and it didn't take forever.

I think this probably fits the definition of 'viable' for 90% of the general player population. It certainly does for me. All the 'gimp' and 'not useful' claptrap bandied about by some forum people is generally not applicable to most players and never has been since I've bothered reading the forums.


I'm not saying the folks that hyper focus on EE content don't have some valid feedback, but they are often prone to hyperbole and sweeping generalizations which hardly seem to reflect the experience of most players.

[Ape_Man]

I'm not saying the folks that hyper focus on EE content don't have some valid feedback, but they are often prone to hyperbole and sweeping generalizations which hardly seem to reflect the experience of most players.

But don't forget, we're always right.

[Ape_Man]

As Iv'e said, I reserve everything I've said till I see more.....

As I'm not a build fantatic, who will spends every spare wakign moment thinking aobut and designing/building toons with every planner/spread sheet in the book.... My perspective comes from a wider total game view. And that is, are such sweeping changes godo or bad for hte game in total? I get the need for a revamped system in how we look at enhancements. I also see that at least ont he surface they're putting this stuff out there for us to see VERY early, an dat least according to them (devs) it's all up for change as time goes on. My main concerns ahve to do with how many current plaeyrs will bother to rebuild their characters rather than give up ont he game. Weigh in that it's looking like the chances of actually having to "pay" after being forced rebuild characters into vaibility/playability might just push out a few more. And of course this change make the game mroe appealing to a larger set of new players?

I don't know the answers to those questions...... I'm just an average longtime (6+ years), mid-40's DDO player, who really isn't a video game fanatic, running around trying every game that comes out, building "special" gaming rigs, obsessign over every skil point, every damage point, etc. But I think as far as DDO goes, my type is far more common in DDO than the later.... How will this sweeping change effect the demographic I'm in, at this stage in the game???

No then... The Devs just made a right turn... There's a few of you who better make it with them, lest your neck gets snapped....

I think it's a calculated gamble . . . how many people will they lose over their "favorite" toon being killed versus how many WOW-refugees will now be able to understand the game.

Neverwinter is breathing down their necks, a newer shinier D&D game. Between this and the "Iconic Heroes" silliness it looks like they're simplifying the game . . . AKA dumbing it down.

Hyperbole or not, these changes WILL gimp some builds if implemented close to what we see now. With that said some colossally over-powered combos look like they'll be available for the new FoTM people to munch on so the fanbois can continue whining.

[Sonos]

I think this probably fits the definition of 'viable' for 90% of the general player population. It certainly does for me. All the 'gimp' and 'not useful' claptrap bandied about by some forum people is generally not applicable to most players and never has been since I've bothered reading the forums.


I'm not saying the folks that hyper focus on EE content don't have some valid feedback, but they are often prone to hyperbole and sweeping generalizations which hardly seem to reflect the experience of most players.

I agree a bit here.

1-20 where a lot of people enjoy doing over and over, almost any build is "viable". EN to EH... probably still viable. EE kind of separates the wheat and the chaff. Maybe that's only 10% of players? I dunno, I don't have all of the stats. Bank toons mess up those figures(ie ratio of endgame vs. leveling players).

The real question is: Is viable=fun? Sometimes, sure. It's all subjective, I was really looking forward to LRing my completionist into an AA helf monk archer for the versatility and fun factor. There is a reason it is a FoTM, it is fun. Will there be other fun builds, sure. But after 14 lives on this toon, I had sorta looked forward to it, and I will for a few months. Builds adapt and morph (see Emerald and Emerald 2.0), but in those, there was improvement.

We'll see though. Again, I don't take the word 'alpha' as literally as most. There will be changes to be sure but...

[FZTopaz]

I agree a bit here.

1-20 where a lot of people enjoy doing over and over, almost any build is "viable". EN to EH... probably still viable. EE kind of separates the wheat and the chaff. Maybe that's only 10% of players? I dunno, I don't have all of the stats. Bank toons mess up those figures(ie ratio of endgame vs. leveling players).

The real question is: Is viable=fun? Sometimes, sure. It's all subjective, I was really looking forward to LRing my completionist into an AA helf monk archer for the versatility and fun factor. There is a reason it is a FoTM, it is fun. Will there be other fun builds, sure. But after 14 lives on this toon, I had sorta looked forward to it, and I will for a few months. Builds adapt and morph (see Emerald and Emerald 2.0), but in those, there was improvement.

We'll see though. Again, I don't take the word 'alpha' as literally as most. There will be changes to be sure but...

See, this is a well thought out argument. Instead of saying "pigeonholed" or "nannybots", you brought forth an actual argument. Well done!

To counter it, I will say this. I also have an AA build...17 druid/2 monk/1 wizard. I am slightly worried that what I built him up for I will not be able to do anymore. That being said, where he is at now, I am having so much fun with him he is now my main (replacing my 4 year old Pale Master). I can acheive where he is now (level 17 with 14 druid, the other two classes are already in the build) in the new system for AA and still have some points left over. He may not be exactly what I thought he would, but I'm having so much fun with him, I am excited to see what he may become afterwards.

But then, I'm an optimistic person....

[smatt]

I think it's a calculated gamble . . . how many people will they lose over their "favorite" toon being killed versus how many WOW-refugees will now be able to understand the game.

Neverwinter is breathing down their necks, a newer shinier D&D game. Between this and the "Iconic Heroes" silliness it looks like they're simplifying the game . . . AKA dumbing it down.

Hyperbole or not, these changes WILL gimp some builds if implemented close to what we see now. With that said some colossally over-powered combos look like they'll be available for the new FoTM people to munch on so the fanbois can continue whining.

Hmm, well I'm not sure it would be so much losing people over their favorite toon... Sure there will be some that go into a gamer geeked out fit of anger... Seems to be more would simply be frustrated at having to learn another entirely new/redesigned system very unlike what htye've grown acustomed to within a game that is already 7 years old. Not an addition like say the ED's, or something that feels the same such as combat, or AC, when most people never worried about htat before, but a completely new way of looking at a character from the ground up.

I'm not sure it's dumbing down, at least not yet.... Easier or more intuitive doesnt' always mean dumbing down... And there's no doubt that part of this is also a compelte rebalancing of the game as whole. you have to admit that there are many instances within DDO building that are outlandishly powerful. And no I'm not a "All things must be in balance" type of person. Of course with build system liek DDO no matter what htey bring the gamer nerds will find the holes... I mean even a gamer nerd can find a hole in the dark.....

Hey I could be 100% wrong..... It just seems a bit late for this sweeping of a move. But you know the whole FtP thing worked out, and gave the game a few more years, and of course the ability to spike revenue up enough to sell off to WB, so who knows...

As for hte sniffers..... No I'm not raged at all.... Perhaps a bit confused.. But you know...

[Aussir]

I did that. The only thing I haven't touched yet is Warforged and halfing. I've played with the races, and the classes. I've made a few multi-class characters (14/6 cleric/fighter battle cleric, 16 arti/2 ranger/2 fighter Juggernaut copy, 15 ranger/5 cleric, and the cleric AA was a pure cleric).

I'm going to give you an example of a char that I have that is 12/6/2, not FotM (I don't build those) and that I don't think I'll take to EE. It was built for fun, like all my chars although some are capable of EE, some aren't (by my own choice).

Right now, with the build that char has and if it were to use the new system, it would need 2 trees from ranger because of where Favored Enemy is, 1 tree from fighter... and then what? What do I do about the 3rd class that I have? I don't have any more trees... this, not to mention that I would need around 120-140 AP's to get that char to what it has now with 80...

Do you see what I mean now?

I'm not saying the new system can't work. It can work but it needs to be tweaked and polished for that.
I left suggestions here because with some tweaks, we don't have to lose any of the customization we have now. However, those tweaks NEED to happen for that customization to stay alive.

[RobbinB]

The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense.

What? Anybody that said the stat damage change would kill the game was just spouting hyberbole because they hated the change. But some people did leave the game because they were peeved that maybe they spent a fortune on a wop and the magnitude of the change by Turbine showed no respect for that. (Sure maybe half of those people came back a few months later, but some did leave.)

What the stat damage change did show was the Turbine devs have no clue about game mechanics. ("Hey, stat damage is too powerful, let's adjust it down slightly. Stat = 0 equals short term paralysis and a 90% stat shield makes sense to me.") C'mon, are you kidding me? And we still have the 90% stat shield in effect now? Are you double kidding me? Memo to Turbine, you didn't "balance" stat damage with a slight downgrade, you made it near useless for much of the content.

And how many other examples of Turbine doesn't understand their own game are there (nightmare weapon prefix fiasco anyone?)

Bottom line here is the points spent to get to meaningful stuff, the lack of really useful stuff in those necessary point expenditures, the fact that going deep in one tree uses up a way-too significant chunk of your ap (hence bardcher and monkcher are in trouble regardless of what they do to 10,000k stars), the 2 ap cost for nearly all skills no matter how useless (eg. 10 ap to fill out the elemental arrows line which is useless unless you do that - blah; 12 ap to effectively get 3 seeker - blah) - these all add up to the "newer versions" of many multiclass builds becoming pale versions of their former self.

Not saying the game's dying, not saying I can't make my builds "work", but don't kid yourself that significant multiclass options aren't being destroyed if anything like this enhancement pass comes into play.

For me the kicker is that if there simply existed a form of tr equivalent to a +20 lesser with race and alignment change then whatever they rolled out could be adapted to. But with only the +5 lesser or full tr possibilities they have now, too many builds will end up on the shelf not being played, which isn't cool.

So if you are saying "i'll roll with the changes" you are actually saying either you are a hardcore gamer and will tr back to endgame quick as a flash with a revised version of your outdated builds, or you simply don't mind playing a character that is flawed or no longer anything like what you envisioned / wanted it to be. Unfortunately, not everyone is cool with those things.

[BOgre]

I've rebuilt my Human Tempest a few different ways now, including a Scimi dex build (in hopes of taking advantage of all the 'junk' in the new Temp line). All came 'close' to working out the same, or nearly so, as my Live toon, NONE were as good. More importantly none played the same as the toon I've been playing for 2 years. And more alarming, all needed significant re-gearing. Easy to do in the Dojo, not so easy to do on Live. LR/GR/TR or no, all of my characters will be affected, all will suffer a pretty major setback, even if it's only a temporary one while they're being re-geared. If I focus on only the 4 toons I play often, I'm estimating a year at my current play speed to get them back to some semblance of normal.
Ok, sure, I'll adapt and keep playing. It's just that the task looks daunting from here and I'm starting out from a disheartened place.
Devs, this is all just too much. I wish you'd have stuck with the plan of completing the PrEs and polishing the UI instead of this major overhaul.

[Valakai]

Guess we will see as these things are still changing and we dont know details of every class as of yet. At the same time I am excited to have new opportunities but also a little sad that at least 1 of my characters needs to TR. Hoping for a bone in a form of stone of XP or some such to lessen the pain of "mandatory" TR.

[barecm]

I can remember a quote from a dev from years back wondering why anyone would want to multiclass. Since then, we have seen the slow progression to make pure class better than multiclass. It is what the game devs have wanted for a long, long time and how we have seen changes in the enhancement system reflect over the years. The current changes to the enhancement system is the most updated reflection of that. Although I don't agree with it, I am also not surprised by how they are implementing it. The coolness of multiclassing is one of the selling points of this game and they continue to chip away at it.... I have no idea why as I have seen a dev really comment on the why of it all.

[Aurora1979]

anyone else see the core of their build gone?

Not this time round, at the moment all my chars are scattered in mid levels/ TR's....

It's nothing new though. My characters usually become useless the very next update after I cap them. But yea, nothing abnormal in an update destroying a character.

[Cetus]

1.5 years in the making folks...

That's the part that gets me

[EllisDee37]

anyone else see the core of their build gone?

Both my melees' share a similar core build concept: +80 devotion with human recovery III. (Pally for thf, ranger for twf.) Both have been crushed by the new enhancements in both aspects; no more devotion (other than "points spent in tree" IN THE WRONG TREE for both) and human recovery has doubled in price.

[arkonas]

It's right there in your quotes:Why can't "the build you currently have on live" be recreated? Because there's too much build diversity on live to support them all. If you pare down your various builds to their essences, you can make a similar build in the new enhancements. There's just fewer ways to do it.

it also said probably so maybe you can replicate it. honestly anytime new changes come out builds die while new ones emerge. Its just the way any game toon life goes. Some will do awesome until some change kills it or makes it better. my problem with some of the posters who are always negative is that it was the first build and not even a finished product. I didnt get all mad and start breaking stuff in my house when i saw it. I pointed what i thought was wrong or too high. A lot of people have mentioned what is missing. that is what we should be doing.

whether you agree with me or not. Im sure some of my builds will die but oh well im not going to throw a tantrum over it.