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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    In D&D does it boost spell damage as it is planned to do here in DDO?

    If it does, what do sorcs, clerics, FvS, rangers, bards and druids use for a similar boost in D&D? Maybe whatever is used there could also be brought in?
    it doesn't. there is no spell power at all for dnd.

  2. #22
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    And what spell power enhancement are left? I'll admit I've not been in every tree yet, but the ones I have seen have removed them.
    the cleric healing domain boosts positive and light based on how much you invest in the tree. the cleric protection domain gives universal spell power based on how much you invest in the tree.

    i haven't seen the full artificer one yet, but i know there is some spellpower granted in them too.

  3. #23
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chanw4 View Post
    how about let a rogue to spot with int? how about let wiz to UMD with int?

    It use int because the skill is int base.
    Besides the usual 'DDO is not D&D' line, look at the Spellcraft skill, then look at it on the d20 SRD. The only thing that this new skill of the same name has in common with the INT based skill in D&D is.... the name. That is it; the functionality of the two are not in any way related. Otherwise it is an entirely new construct, that the name 'Spellcraft' was borrowed for in order to give it a more D&D feel.

    They could have just as easily called the skill Witchcraft and made it CHA based. Or Spiritual Focus and based it on WIS. Everything about this is an arbitrary construct, so arguing for it based on precedence does not follow.

  4. #24
    Founder Matuse's Avatar
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    3. The 1:1 ratio is too low. Give 3 spellpower for each point in the skill.
    That would be ridiculous.

    23 trained + 15 spellcraft skill item + 5 points of int based improvement for a non-wizard = 126 spellpower.

    A bit much.


    1:1 means you get a reasonable but not preposterous improvement by investing points in the skill. If you free up a couple points of int to max the skill, you'll get some benefit, but not doing it won't cripple your character compared to someone who did max it. At 3:1, you'd be completely gimped if you didn't squeeze every drop out of it. Plus, the advantage it would give to wizards would be WAY over the top.
    Kobold sentient jewel still hate you.

  5. #25
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    the cleric healing domain boosts positive and light based on how much you invest in the tree. the cleric protection domain gives universal spell power based on how much you invest in the tree.

    i haven't seen the full artificer one yet, but i know there is some spellpower granted in them too.
    Does it not also give a 50% penatly to all other damage types? I don't quite understand how that works, but its seems kinda harsh.

  6. #26
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    That would be ridiculous.

    23 trained + 15 spellcraft skill item + 5 points of int based improvement for a non-wizard = 126 spellpower.

    A bit much.


    1:1 means you get a reasonable but not preposterous improvement by investing points in the skill. If you free up a couple points of int to max the skill, you'll get some benefit, but not doing it won't cripple your character compared to someone who did max it. At 3:1, you'd be completely gimped if you didn't squeeze every drop out of it. Plus, the advantage it would give to wizards would be WAY over the top.
    At endgame you have 28skill points. Thats 84 spell power.

    Don't boost the items and other stuff. Just the points you invest.

    I'm just trying to cover what is missing from the enhancements.

  7. #27
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I just reviewed my current Cleric's Spell power against himself with the LAMA version (52 Skill points spent to mimic Radiant Servant abilities in Healing and 13 Points Spent in Protection)

    36 Point build Half-Elf Started with a 12 Intelligence (To qualify for Wizard Dilettante at Level 3 when Tomes kicked in +2 Tome at start of life)

    12 Skill Points to spend at first Level
    3 Skill Points to spend Levels 2-7
    4 Skill Points to spend Levels 8 - 20

    If I spent my skills exactly for the new system my Spellcraft Rank would be Zero (0) and Heal Rank would be 1

    With Items/Ability Mods
    Heal Skill: 30 (1 Rank + 14 Wisdom Mod + 15 Item)
    Spellcraft: 2 (0 Rank + 2 Intelligence Mod)

    Spent in Trees:
    Protection: 13 = +13 Universal
    Healing: 52 = +52 Light / +78 Positive

    Light Spell Power: 67 (52 [Healing Domain] + 13 [Protection Domain] + 2 [Intelligence Bonus])
    Positive Spell Power: 108 (78 [Healing Domain] + 30 [Healing Skill])

    Now since I only invested in Light/Alignment for 60 Spell Power in the current system, I'm getting a 7 Spell Power Boost and Positive Spell power is seeing a 28 Spell Power Boost.

    I can than boost this further with a +6 or better Intelligences Item, Exceptional/Insight Intelligence and even Greater Heroism. Bard Song for +2 Attributes now will add +1 Spell Power.

    Now even with an 8 Int (-1) and no investment and simply a +6 Item and Greater Heroism gains you +4 Spell Power.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It does appear that Rangers do not have the Devotion enhancements which if this is not changed will totally change the survivability of some ranger builds that relied heavily on this ability. For those that did not, gear changes may require fitting in a +Heal Skill Item (Maybe a Spellcraft item also), Intelligence and more Wisdom if possible.
    Last edited by Enoach; 04-13-2013 at 05:08 PM. Reason: Correction made Protection Domain and Spellcraft added to heal and should not have been

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Does it not also give a 50% penatly to all other damage types? I don't quite understand how that works, but its seems kinda harsh.
    No, that's the 25 spell power toggle that does virtually nothing except demonstrate that the devs feel clerics should be healbots.

    Clerics have 2 trees. For every AP spent in the healing tree you get +1 radiance and +1.5 devotion, meaning if you spent all 80 AP in that tree you'd end up with 80 radiance and 120 devotion. This spell power is auto-granted, removing choice and enforcing similarity. (Right now a cleric could choose to dump light damage altogether and focus the AP saved on other things.)

    The second tree grants +1 potency per AP spent, so putting all your AP in that (horrendous, offensively stupid) tree would give you +80 potency.

    Neither of these sources of spell power have any negative impact, no penalty of any kind.

  9. #29
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    No, that's the 25 spell power toggle that does virtually nothing except demonstrate that the devs feel clerics should be healbots.

    Clerics have 2 trees. For every AP spent in the healing tree you get +1 radiance and +1.5 devotion, meaning if you spent all 80 AP in that tree you'd end up with 80 radiance and 120 devotion. This spell power is auto-granted, removing choice and enforcing similarity. (Right now a cleric could choose to dump light damage altogether and focus the AP saved on other things.)

    The second tree grants +1 potency per AP spent, so putting all your AP in that (horrendous, offensively stupid) tree would give you +80 potency.

    Neither of these sources of spell power have any negative impact, no penalty of any kind.
    Thank you for the clarification.

  10. #30
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Now since I only invested in Light/Alignment for 60 Spell Power in the current system, I'm getting a 7 Spell Power Boost and Positive Spell power is seeing a 43 Spell Power Boost.
    And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.
    Well, for that specifically it's probably looking better. Clerics on live are unable to put a single point of spell power into blade barrier.

    My 19/1 cleric/wizard who splashed for the bonus feat, +40 force spell power and master's touch during the low levels is pretty well screwed, though. I can kiss that +40 force goodbye, meaning a fighter level will become infinitely preferable to a wizard level for my caster cleric. That just feels wrong.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.
    erm, you notice he said he put only 13 point in protection so he have 13 universal spell power + spellcraft skill. And if you are not a heal cleric, then you should be putting point into protection line for spell power instead.

    Spellcraft skill is not the main way to gain spellpower at all. before this change, you gain spell power from enhancement. probably spending lots of AP to maxout 2 - 3 line of Spellpower. in the new system, you gain spellpower from spending points on enhancement + spellcraft skill points.

  13. #33
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Well, for that specifically it's probably looking better. Clerics on live are unable to put a single point of spell power into blade barrier.

    My 19/1 cleric/wizard who splashed for the bonus feat, +40 force spell power and master's touch during the low levels is pretty well screwed, though. I can kiss that +40 force goodbye, meaning a fighter level will become infinitely preferable to a wizard level for my caster cleric. That just feels wrong.
    Yes, but the entire point is that a year ago we were told that the Enhancement trees would be the answer to Cleric's lacking Spell Power. And now that it is here, not only can they only get a 1:1 SP:AP rate, but they are lacking any of the spell critical enhancements that make the spells really powerful.

    For a year now, Clerics have been strung along with the claim that the Enhancement Trees will address their problems. And now it is being previewed, and that preview shows that their problems are not only sufficiently addressed, but they are also given an entire new set of restrictions that they have to build around.

  14. #34
    Community Member RavenStormclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Sorcs have TWO Stats!

    Charisma & Con!

    If you can't fit in 14 Int on a Sorc you've got issues!


    Try doing that on a Cleric, FavSoul or Paladin!


    Concentration, Diplomacy {Intim on a Pally}, Heal, Spellcraft {not needed on a Paladin}, Balance = 5 Skills
    14 Int {Drow} or 12 Int with Human Bonus Skill Point = Possible to take 4 of these!
    14 Int {Most other Races} = Hard
    14 Int {H-Orc} = Nigh on Impossible on a 32pt Build!
    You have to use a +2 Tome at Lvl 7 of course to get all 5!
    And no UMD!

    So basically the Devs are Pigeonholing Clerics, Paladins & FavSouls into TWO Races!
    Drow or Human!
    Nope you forgot one problem by the time you get a level where concentration is needed most people have picked up quicken which basically negates concentration thus you can dump it. So basically its a choice to pigeon hole yourself, or pick up quicken (which most builds do anyway) and not worry about concentration and instead put that into spell craft.

    Sorceres being the exception but they also have only two stats chr and con so picking up intel shouldn't be all that hard.

  15. #35
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Perform I admit is a little stupid since only bards and bard splashes can even have the skill. Then again, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics and Favored souls only use their sonic spells for the stun chances, and have much better damaging options, while that isn't the case for bard.

    Repair isn't a class skill for sorcerers, so they'll be short 12 points compared to a wiz/arti (assuming they even have the skill point to throw into repair each level, which is less likely as wiz/arti are int classes)

    Heal is only a class skill for clerics, favored souls, paladins, druids and rangers, all of whom except ranger are tight on skill points already. Druids are 4+int mod per level, which is enough for Concentration, UMD, Heal and Spellcraft if you boost your int up to 10. Bards, artis, dragonmarked halflings (remember dragonmarks are enhancements on Lam so easier to get), pale masters, and characters that use renewal/rejuvenation cocoon won't have heal as a class skill, but at least they can put half a point in.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Light Spell Power: 67 (52 [Healing Domain] + 13 [Protection Domain] + 2 [Intelligence Bonus])
    Positive Spell Power: 123 (78 [Healing Domain] + 13 [Protection Domain] + 2 [Intelligence Bonus] + 30 [Healing Skill])
    I like the wishful thinking how Potency (Protection Domain) stacks with Devotion & Radiance (Healing Domain) but this would be a monumental change in how spell power works. I do not share your optimism.

    Have you tested it? Does potency now stack with devotion and radiance?

  17. #37
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    They are for rangers and pallies, who lose 80 devotion from enhancements with no way to recover them other than the heal skill.

    So put fewer points into balance or jump and put them into heal? Granted it is a trade off, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

  18. #38
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.
    How are you boosting your Blade Barrier on a pure cleric now?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Have you tested it? Does potency now stack with devotion and radiance?
    Points spent in protection tree stack with points spent in healing tree, so every point in protection tree also gives 1 positive spell power.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    So put fewer points into balance or jump and put them into heal? Granted it is a trade off, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
    Do you play a self-healing ranger or pally? My ranger and pally both currently spend 10 AP total to gain +80 devotion. (Not to mention another 12 AP for 33.1% healing amp.)

    And I very much like the skills I have on them considering I built them with a specific and intentional number of skill points, including a +2 int tome kicking in at level 7.

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