Spellcraft, heal, repair and perform

[redoubt]

These need some tweaking.

1. They need to be based on the casting stat of the class, not just INT.

2. Rangers need to get benifit from heal.

3. The 1:1 ratio is too low. Give 3 spellpower for each point in the skill.

I don't know of anyone who takes any of these other than bards taking perform. This will place a burden on many characters (wizards and artis are probably okay.) Take my 3rd life cleric for example. With 36pts to work with he is max wisdom and charisma and the rest goes into Con. He has 8 INT. Concentration is a must have skill. Now so is heal... so now he needs two more points of intelligence. Was that considered?

Same goes for a sorc... max cha and max con. Not a lot of skill points to go around...

There are builds that don't need skill points, but to those builds that do, they are precious. Due to the difficulty of getting more skill points on things like clerics I think that each point invested should be worth more than 1 spell power.

Thanks for reading.

[RavenStormclaw]

These need some tweaking.

1. They need to be based on the casting stat of the class, not just INT.

2. Rangers need to get benifit from heal.

3. The 1:1 ratio is too low. Give 3 spellpower for each point in the skill.

I don't know of anyone who takes any of these other than bards taking perform. This will place a burden on many characters (wizards and artis are probably okay.) Take my 3rd life cleric for example. With 36pts to work with he is max wisdom and charisma and the rest goes into Con. He has 8 INT. Concentration is a must have skill. Now so is heal... so now he needs two more points of intelligence. Was that considered?

Same goes for a sorc... max cha and max con. Not a lot of skill points to go around...

There are builds that don't need skill points, but to those builds that do, they are precious. Due to the difficulty of getting more skill points on things like clerics I think that each point invested should be worth more than 1 spell power.

Thanks for reading.

While I see your point this is the choices we make. Need that extra skill point go human so you get 2 per level even with an 8 intel. I think the changes are usefull and make some sense. 3 power per skill point is a bit extreme especially if you conside you can find +15 braces of sustenance...that would be 45 spell power which is a lot if you consider your getting by a back door route. You think you have it bad think about an Arti who wants to use the curative adimixtures now they have to worry about spell craft, repair, and heal.

Umm they are, in fact, based off the casting stat. Only Sorcerer gets left out. Perform is charisma based, heal is wisdom based, and spell craft is intel based...sorcerer would of course use spellcraft but they each get it as a class feat so the power difference isn't so great.

[Khatzhas]

It is a tweak to increase the usefulness of the skills and the choices available for characters. They aren't generally your main source of spellpower. Don't feel that maxing them out is absolutely necessary unless you are pushing for a completely min/max character.

Putting a 3:1 ratio of spellpower to skill points would make them more important than the spellpower from enhancements, and is probably a rather bad idea.

All the classes and races will be changing, so don't feel that you have to have the same numbers in the new system as you currently do.

[EllisDee37]

They aren't generally your main source of spellpower.

They are for rangers and pallies, who lose 80 devotion from enhancements with no way to recover them other than the heal skill.

[Postumus]

They are for rangers and pallies, who lose 80 devotion from enhancements with no way to recover them other than the heal skill.

So put fewer points into balance or jump and put them into heal? Granted it is a trade off, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

[EllisDee37]

So put fewer points into balance or jump and put them into heal? Granted it is a trade off, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Do you play a self-healing ranger or pally? My ranger and pally both currently spend 10 AP total to gain +80 devotion. (Not to mention another 12 AP for 33.1% healing amp.)

And I very much like the skills I have on them considering I built them with a specific and intentional number of skill points, including a +2 int tome kicking in at level 7.

[Urjak]

IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

[HungarianRhapsody]

IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

Sorcs and Paladins and Clerics and Favored Souls.

[Lithic]

IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

The difference between a maxed int sorc and an 8 starting int sorc is 16 pts of int, or 8% of BASE spell power. Other than the 10pts of starting int and the 6 stat points from leveling, everything else can be used and acquired by both.

This is on the order of 2% of actual damage once you factor in other spell power bonuses from items, feats, and enhancements, which can easily total 400% of base. Now consider that dropping your starting con from 18 to 16, gets you 6 of those 16 pts of int, and the difference is so minute that any sorc thinking about going full-Int is kidding themselves. The benfit of 14 starting int is you actually get the skill points you need to max repair and spell craft.

This being the case, looks like the OP is really just complaining about needing to find room for an int item or a couple int based augments. Not to mention spellpower skill itmes heh.

[redoubt]

The difference between a maxed int sorc and an 8 starting int sorc is 16 pts of int, or 8% of BASE spell power. Other than the 10pts of starting int and the 6 stat points from leveling, everything else can be used and acquired by both..

A wizard has 50+ int at end game. That is a minimum of 20pts of bonus to spellpower from Int. A sorc, as most are played today has 8 or 10. The difference is more than 8%.

This is on the order of 2% of actual damage once you factor in other spell power bonuses from items, feats, and enhancements, which can easily total 400% of base. Now consider that dropping your starting con from 18 to 16, gets you 6 of those 16 pts of int, and the difference is so minute that any sorc thinking about going full-Int is kidding themselves. The benfit of 14 starting int is you actually get the skill points you need to max repair and spell craft..

Yes, when you factor in all else, the boost from the stat bonus to spell power is a small percentage.

No sorc will go full INT. Even if they went full INT at creation, they won't put stat level ups and enhancements and feats into it.

And what spell power enhancement are left? I'll admit I've not been in every tree yet, but the ones I have seen have removed them.

This being the case, looks like the OP is really just complaining about needing to find room for an int item or a couple int based augments. Not to mention spellpower skill itmes heh.

I expected better of you than resorting to insults; instead of simply screaming doom like everyone else I suggest a modification to the alpha. Isn't that what it is for? To get feedback and ideas?

My cleric has plenty of room for a stat an INT stat item, but why would he need one? He is a wisdom based caster. Anything affecting his casting should go through wisdom.

[Jaid314]

And what spell power enhancement are left? I'll admit I've not been in every tree yet, but the ones I have seen have removed them.

the cleric healing domain boosts positive and light based on how much you invest in the tree. the cleric protection domain gives universal spell power based on how much you invest in the tree.

i haven't seen the full artificer one yet, but i know there is some spellpower granted in them too.

[redoubt]

the cleric healing domain boosts positive and light based on how much you invest in the tree. the cleric protection domain gives universal spell power based on how much you invest in the tree.

i haven't seen the full artificer one yet, but i know there is some spellpower granted in them too.

Does it not also give a 50% penatly to all other damage types? I don't quite understand how that works, but its seems kinda harsh.

[FranOhmsford]

IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

Sorcs have TWO Stats!

Charisma & Con!

If you can't fit in 14 Int on a Sorc you've got issues!


Try doing that on a Cleric, FavSoul or Paladin!


Concentration, Diplomacy {Intim on a Pally}, Heal, Spellcraft {not needed on a Paladin}, Balance = 5 Skills
14 Int {Drow} or 12 Int with Human Bonus Skill Point = Possible to take 4 of these!
14 Int {Most other Races} = Hard
14 Int {H-Orc} = Nigh on Impossible on a 32pt Build!
You have to use a +2 Tome at Lvl 7 of course to get all 5!
And no UMD!

So basically the Devs are Pigeonholing Clerics, Paladins & FavSouls into TWO Races!
Drow or Human!

[RavenStormclaw]

Sorcs have TWO Stats!

Charisma & Con!

If you can't fit in 14 Int on a Sorc you've got issues!


Try doing that on a Cleric, FavSoul or Paladin!


Concentration, Diplomacy {Intim on a Pally}, Heal, Spellcraft {not needed on a Paladin}, Balance = 5 Skills
14 Int {Drow} or 12 Int with Human Bonus Skill Point = Possible to take 4 of these!
14 Int {Most other Races} = Hard
14 Int {H-Orc} = Nigh on Impossible on a 32pt Build!
You have to use a +2 Tome at Lvl 7 of course to get all 5!
And no UMD!

So basically the Devs are Pigeonholing Clerics, Paladins & FavSouls into TWO Races!
Drow or Human!

Nope you forgot one problem by the time you get a level where concentration is needed most people have picked up quicken which basically negates concentration thus you can dump it. So basically its a choice to pigeon hole yourself, or pick up quicken (which most builds do anyway) and not worry about concentration and instead put that into spell craft.

Sorceres being the exception but they also have only two stats chr and con so picking up intel shouldn't be all that hard.

[FranOhmsford]

Nope you forgot one problem by the time you get a level where concentration is needed most people have picked up quicken which basically negates concentration thus you can dump it. So basically its a choice to pigeon hole yourself, or pick up quicken (which most builds do anyway) and not worry about concentration and instead put that into spell craft.

Sorceres being the exception but they also have only two stats chr and con so picking up intel shouldn't be all that hard.

Quicken is used for ONE Spell!

Mass Heal!

That's it!

What you're suggesting is that suddenly EVERY Cleric HAS to keep Quicken on at ALL times for ALL Spells!

Sounds like a Massive Nerf to me!

[Khatzhas]

. . . so don't max out Int?
Choices can be scary, but deciding how many build points you want to put into each stat is a fundamental part of D&D and DDO both.
If you are able to max out every important stat, there is no choice, and the game loses some of its variation.

Relative character power is not an issue yet: that can only be judged when all the trees are up and running together. Likewise since everyone is changing, trying to compare with the power of your character in the old system is irrelevant.

After the devs have judged all of the trees, and tweaked the numbers to their final form, that will be the time for the min/maxers to work on breaking the new system. You can't push the limits if you don't have anything solid to push against.

[RedHost]

It is a tweak to increase the usefulness of the skills and the choices available for characters. They aren't generally your main source of spellpower. Don't feel that maxing them out is absolutely necessary unless you are pushing for a completely min/max character.

Have you even looked at Lamania? These skills ~are~ the main source of spellpower.

And yes, 3:1 ratio would be insane. 1:1 is fine. There is another thread that suggests nixing the Spellcraft skill and instead folding it's function in with Concentration. Which would make the entire thing much more acceptable. As it is now, it is simply a tax that forces casters to move stat allocation points into Intelligence.

Sorcerers need the Repair skill, and Wizards either need to have access to the Heal skill as a Class Skill, or else some ~very~ hefty bonuses to the Palemaster Tree. The later would probably be better, but either will do. No idea what the OP means about Rangers and Heal, though, as they already get Devotion from Heal. At least when I was checking on it.

Relative character power is not an issue yet: that can only be judged when all the trees are up and running together. Likewise since everyone is changing, trying to compare with the power of your character in the old system is irrelevant.

No, relative power is still very important. Because the content that characters are going to be in is not changing. Cleric's offensive casting is already a joke. A year ago they were told that the Enhancement Trees would provide the answer to this. And they do not, they actually make it worse. So yes, if Clerics already lack for spell damage when running the current content, and then they loose damage while still needing to complete the same content, this is far from irrelevant.

[WiseFreelancer]

Have you even looked at Lamania? These skills ~are~ the main source of spellpower.

They are *not* the main source of spellpower.

Even on a capped toon with maxed skill (28 spellpower) + 20 item + 25 ability score (that's a 60 Int) you're looking at 80ish spellpower. That's less than the contribution from maximise spell, less than the contribution from enhancements (look at the cleric, at not the gimped protection tree) and less than the average endgame contribution from items.

Given the cleric example, they haven't reduced spellpower from enhancements if you invest well (the numbers could be bumped IMO) so heal is a bonus. And on a Cleric or Wis-based FvS or Druid you're getting a third of the benefit for healing for free. Same for casting on a Wiz or Artificer.

The perform bonus needs to go, its punitively restrictive because perform itself is punitively restrictive. Personally I'd like to bring Light into Heal and give Sorcs some extra omph to compensate them (they alone of true-casters should be moaning).

Don't bring Rangers into it - there's a Dev post confirming Devotion will go back into their trees somehow, and that should be more than enough to cover their self-healing.

[RedHost]

Now there's a generalisation. All sorcerers are warforged and all wizards are palemasters.

I guess that was worded poorly. From the contest of the line quoted, I had meant that those classes should really have those skills added as class skills. Not all Sorcerers are WarForged. But all WF Sorcs should have access to full ranks in Repair, rather than having to cross-class their spellpower from it.

They are *not* the main source of spellpower.

Even on a capped toon with maxed skill (28 spellpower) + 20 item + 25 ability score (that's a 60 Int) you're looking at 80ish spellpower. That's less than the contribution from maximise spell, less than the contribution from enhancements (look at the cleric, at not the gimped protection tree) and less than the average endgame contribution from items.

I suppose I should have said "main innate source". For the 1:1 ratio of Universal Spell Power, you could get 80 from Enhancements if you spend ~all~ of your AP towards that, forgoing any kind of racial perks or other enhancement trees. A more reasonable number would be around 50. Which is going to be lower than a maxed Spellcraft is giving you, even on a character who does not have maxed out Intelligence.

Spellcraft offers more Spell Power than Empower. Less than Maximize. And much less than gear. But it is a greater source than anything that comes from enhancements, and ignoring it as the post that was being responded to suggested would leave a caster in the "dead weight" level of builds.

[Dilbon]

H
Sorcerers need the Repair skill, and Wizards either need to have access to the Heal skill as a Class Skill, or else some ~very~ hefty bonuses to the Palemaster Tree.

Now there's a generalisation. All sorcerers are warforged and all wizards are palemasters.