A few thoughts after reading...

[Drekisen]

Hey y'all hope you are having fun. Just some thoughts after reading the threads here.

Most of the restrictions are in there so we can see which ones work...and which ones suck. The screws are intentionally tight, AP costs, prereqs, exc, and most likely will not be that way when we go live. The devs intentionally wanted to start at ' most painful' and throttle back instead of most open and then deal with the 'gar nerf' rage when we released. We really try to have a 'no nerf' policy at this point...except when trees are drunk or obvious exploits.

As for listening, that is what this is all about. This system is 4 days out of alpha by QA standards and is very very raw. We want...no...need player feedback as early as possible. The behind the scenes view from QA goes something like this: Thursday we update Lamania. Monday we collate last week's data and bugs write reports and make charts graphs with glossy photos and stuff. Thursday we update again, new classes and whatnot. rinse repeat. In a month or so after this schedule...the date has not been locked down...or even really talked about yet, we do this all again with the changes, and in my opinion at that point without class restrictions so the multiclassers can break it in all new interesting ways. There probably will be a third pass after that, but at that point stuff will be pretty locked down to how it will be on live. So here is YOUR chance to help us make this right.



Take a few days, and remember when you build a character you are not filling out 20 levels all at the same time. Also, I find build planning potentially easier this way, and I think for some non-hardcore players this is visually easier to understand how to get to a planned goal. Far easier actually. I hate the old system.

This is talked about a ton, and nothing is concrete at this point. Enter bugs with examples. Tons and tons of bugs. Make Gazebo cry.

I like a lot of the feedback already here. Keep it coming!

I will not even attempt to say that I have read thru this whole thread....because I have not......but this be my reasoning and emotion about this whole bit......

The Turbine...and more importantly the DEV's....go thru great strides to keep us all happy.......the response from the players is indeed also greatly important.......it can be said that the pioneerering players lead the way to a more prosperous tomorrow of the newer players.....

that said....what I really wanted to say here is......

give your criticism players...it is much needed...but be lenient on the DEV's and the rest of the tree upwards and downwards......for they create the very game we play.

To me...that the game will be here tomorrow..even if I have to adapt to it's changes......is better than the thought that the game not be here at all.

[dlsidhe]

As for listening, that is what this is all about. This system is 4 days out of alpha by QA standards and is very very raw. We want...no...need player feedback as early as possible. The behind the scenes view from QA goes something like this: Thursday we update Lamania. Monday we collate last week's data and bugs write reports and make charts graphs with glossy photos and stuff. Thursday we update again, new classes and whatnot. rinse repeat. In a month or so after this schedule...the date has not been locked down...or even really talked about yet, we do this all again with the changes, and in my opinion at that point without class restrictions so the multiclassers can break it in all new interesting ways. There probably will be a third pass after that, but at that point stuff will be pretty locked down to how it will be on live. So here is YOUR chance to help us make this right.

Okay, so here's my question - when you drop the next set of alpha classes on Thursday (the next set is the big one for me, as two of my main toons will be affected), will there already be changes based on feedback included?

Basically, while I'm pretty easygoing with this, and I actually like the pass so far (apart from my stated criticisms, which have been submitted several places on the forum and via bug report and survey), I'm fully anticipating that something will be done to Angel of Vengeance or Savant that will require me to locate a pitchfork and set it ablaze as a pitchfork-torch unless some changes are made overall to the basic AP costs, etc.

[Seikojin]

Spellcraft and Heal:

I'm not totally against moving the spellpower enhancements to the skill system, but if you really have to, give all the classes that take spellpower an additional skill point (and Clerics, Druids and FvS two, due to Heal). And make it so that the highest of INT, WIS, or CHA is the modifier for your Spellcraft. It's absurd that a Sorcerer's casting stat doesn't contribute to the skill that gives them more spellpower.

Or better yet, just drop this idea and give a bonus to universal spellpower based on class levels. +4 at level one, +1 for each level.

The Enhancement System:

Overall criticisms:

• Way, WAY too many prerequisites as compared to live, e.g:
  
  • Currently, Ranger Sprint Boost requires no investment in ranger enhancements, only levels. The first tier of Ranger Sprint Boost requires 1 AP
  • With the new system, you need to invest 5 points in the Tempest line BEFORE you can even purchase Sprint Boost. The first tier of Sprint Boost now requires 7 AP (and, besides Whirling Blades, all of the Tier 1 abilities are worthless). For a Ranged-specced Ranger who already has Sprint Boost, you are doing nothing but wasting six of their AP
  
  
• Players already invest in a class by taking class levels, they shouldn't have to invest so heavily in the class's enhancements
  
  • Currently, someone who wants Fighter or Rogue haste boost would take a level of that class and purchase the enhancements. They give up the capstone for their base class. Deeper splashes give up even more
    
    • With the current system, getting a specific, desired enhancement out of a class could be extremely cost intensive, depending on what it is you want to buy
    
    
  • Something interesting happens when you get even deeper splashes, like 12/8. Almost no power is lost from the base class: you give up the fifth and sixth core abilities, and *nothing else* (unless you count class-based DC effects, spells, or auto-granted/extra feats [of which many classes have none]). A 8/6/6 build gives up nothing but the fourth, fifth, and sixth core abilities of each class, yet unlocks every other enhancement for each class. I believe that this could create a large power gap between multi-classed and pure builds. I'm not saying a multi-classed toon shouldn't be more powerful, but I don't think they should be overtly so
    
    • Enhancement costs, however, are so high that it may not even matter. But I imagine a lot of builds coming up that have 12 to 15 levels in Ranger, Monk or Fighter (who get a lot of benefit from auto-granted/extra feats), but take a second class that has better enhancements and spend all the points in those trees
    
    
  
  
• The goal of the enhancements pass should have been to complete/add more prestige classes, buff the classes/prestiges that needed it, and improve the UI. Additional objectives could have been remove . What you're doing here is far too disruptive. You should work with what you already have, because the current system works but could be better

Some suggestions:

• Prestige lines should be reserved for prestige abilities. It is appropriate for Shield of Whirling Steel to be in the Tempest line. It is not appropriate for Sprint Boost to also be in there, even if it fits the theme of "speedy".
• Each class and race should have a "general enhancements" tree
  
  • These enhancements would NOT require the purchase of other enhancements in the "general enhancements" tree, unless they're an upgrade of a previously bought general enhancement (e.g. Spell Penetration II requires Spell Penetration I)
  • General enhancements are unlocked by using AP in any other tree, eg. tier 3 of the general enhancements is unlocked by spending twelve total AP
  • General enhancements would require a certain number of class levels
  • The general enhancements tree would contain enhancements that shouldn't be buried under prerequisites that aren't very useful. Human Healing Amp is a very important enhancement, yet is now buried under a bunch of other prerequisites that you might not want. Currently, TierIII of healing amp costs 12 AP. Now, if you want to keep it, you need to spend an additional 10 AP. It doesn't matter what racial enhancements you could purchase with that AP; it eats away at the AP you could have spent in other places. *No one* enjoys having to purchase things they don't want, just to unlock abilities they do want. And there is a lot of that in this build
  • A lot of the general enhancements will be (and should be) a copy-paste of existing enhancements
  
  
• Power should be moved back to the level of your class, and away from the number of enhancements you invest in that class. This would be accomplished by raising the required class level of the tiers, and lowering their AP cost (and/or giving auto-grants)

The User Interface:

The current one is a piece of junk. Has to refresh after you purchase something, the "hide these items" doesn't persist after a refresh (no, I don't want Improved Repair on my Rogue, stop showing it), lots of scrolling... this new one is better, but still a piece of junk. It could be a lot better. Quite simply, it takes up way too much screen space. I don't need to see the enhancements from one class, or my racial enhancements, if I'm working on the enhancements for another.

Suggestion:



It's so intuitive I won't even explain it.

I really like the alpha version. It has some time to be tightened up so things aren't missing or buggy, but I like the look, the selection process is super easy and it is a lot better than the live system.

This suggested system is more convoluted and leads to more clicking. It would take up less screen-estate, but I would prefer to be able to see everything all at once, like the alpha does, versus one tree at a time. Most of the time when working my enhancements on live, I click show unavailable so I can plan and ensure I am going according to plan or towards a specific ability I want.

[Seikojin]

Okay, so here's my question - when you drop the next set of alpha classes on Thursday (the next set is the big one for me, as two of my main toons will be affected), will there already be changes based on feedback included?

Basically, while I'm pretty easygoing with this, and I actually like the pass so far (apart from my stated criticisms, which have been submitted several places on the forum and via bug report and survey), I'm fully anticipating that something will be done to Angel of Vengeance or Savant that will require me to locate a pitchfork and set it ablaze as a pitchfork-torch unless some changes are made overall to the basic AP costs, etc.

There was another post in here where they say Thursday would roll in changes (if they were approved) and a build would be deployed. I am guessing each Thursday we will see changes based on feedback and bugs.

I also thought it was 3 weeks for each class set. So we get the first three weeks with cleric, arty, fighter, and ranger, where fixes/changes are rolled in each week, then the next set of classes for three weeks, and so on.

I just hope/wish there was a fourth set where we get all the classes on so we could give full spectral MC'ing a shot and give live like feedback.

[EllisDee37]

There was another post in here where they say Thursday would roll in changes (if they were approved) and a build would be deployed. I am guessing each Thursday we will see changes based on feedback and bugs.

I also thought it was 3 weeks for each class set. So we get the first three weeks with cleric, arty, fighter, and ranger, where fixes/changes are rolled in each week, then the next set of classes for three weeks, and so on.

I just hope/wish there was a fourth set where we get all the classes on so we could give full spectral MC'ing a shot and give live like feedback.

Sadly no.

Each set of 4 classes gets one week. So on this coming Thursday the four classes we have now get "shut off" and 4 different ones get activated. No changes to any of the alpha build will happen during this first four weeks.

And the cynic in me suspects, based on how destinies went, that these alpha builds are almost entirely written in stone. After a few very minor tweaks, this is pretty much what's going live regardless of player feedback.

[Momsboys]

C. Some players, since this is an older game, especially if they have a lot of characters, may just say the heck with it, it's too much work just to try to figure out how to get back where I was, I'm leaving.

ALOT of my for say 'Elitist' friends will more than likely do this :/

[SealedInSong]

Originally Posted by Jastron
C. Some players, since this is an older game, especially if they have a lot of characters, may just say the heck with it, it's too much work just to try to figure out how to get back where I was, I'm leaving.

ALOT of my for say 'Elitist' friends will more than likely do this :/

but I have 20 characters+ and have been playing for the last half decade. And I'm 20x5=100 times more excited for the enhancement pass because of it!

But please...someone. Anyone. Fix the cleric enhancements. They're atrocious.

Even if costs aren't cut, the tree limit isn't addressed, the pigeon-holing isn't thwarted, and all other problems remain the same, spice up the healing and protection domain.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

Okay, so here's my question - when you drop the next set of alpha classes on Thursday (the next set is the big one for me, as two of my main toons will be affected), will there already be changes based on feedback included?

Basically, while I'm pretty easygoing with this, and I actually like the pass so far (apart from my stated criticisms, which have been submitted several places on the forum and via bug report and survey), I'm fully anticipating that something will be done to Angel of Vengeance or Savant that will require me to locate a pitchfork and set it ablaze as a pitchfork-torch unless some changes are made overall to the basic AP costs, etc.

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

[Scraap]

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

Probably recommend at least opening up/leaving up the racial unlocks. The class+race combos are gonna be more expensive in terms of seeing mixes in action, but the interaction of the systems might prove enlightening while still keeping the variable-count down a bit.

[kingfisher]

Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

it will hurt a lot less than this making it to live would

[Ape_Man]

it will hurt a lot less than this making it to live would

yes. We need to see how everything interacts.

And fix Character copy while you're at it.

[NytCrawlr]

yes. We need to see how everything interacts.

And fix Character copy while you're at it.

Going to have to agree with both of these.

Also still have a character stuck in Pending via character copy.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Also please don't forget to fix it so we can quest with our peeps on Lama!

Currently can't enter any quests with people in party! Cheers! Thanks in advance! :P! !

(As to why I would want that fixed, well why wouldn't I, & to test bugs with people or some such! )

[dlsidhe]

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

Aye, I know nothing from these classes would be seen, but I'm wondering if any of the general comments/critiques would be factored into the next set (like overall AP cost, etc.)?

As far as opening the gates of hell...honestly, I think it would help. If people see the whole package, it can only help - one of the main concerns is "this will nerf multiclassing." If all the trees are out there, and people can see that either a) multiclassing really is nerfed or (imho, more likely) b) multiclassing will be vastly different and require a new way of thinking, it might quiet some of the rage. Or, at least, redirect it into more constructive feedback then is now present.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Right this. I don't hate the system I hate the UI. Fighting the UI to get what I want is just...annoying. It is the first thing I mentioned when I started working on this game.
I won't speak on why it is not a 1:1 correlation to the old system...which would have made QA very happy for multiple reasons, I'll toss that one to the devs to answer.

Please, some dev needs to address this! I made a post on this in one of Squeak's threads which has gotten nothing but agreement in response. Nobody was asking for the enhancement system to be changed and rebuilt from the ground up, just a better UI and the addition of the missing/incomplete PrEs. The core functionality of the live system, underneath the GUI, is much more straightforward and intuitive and also provides far greater build freedom than this new thing you've dreamed up, which nobody at all was even asking for!

[jakeelala]

I hope you rip everything apart and change it. When the dust settles we'll be playing largely the same game with largely the same mechanics and graphics that we love. It will just have different numbers for our characters and when the dust settles everyone will rejigger and it will be fine.

After 6 years I'm bored anyway. The more you screw with the current game the more I might come back and play regularly.

You know the last time I rolled a halfling, dwarf, drow or elf was?

Basically freaking never but certainly not in the last few years. If this change does nothing but make those races playable, it will be like a 4 race expansion pack. Or making a ranger over lvl 12 not a complete joke? Score.

Or how about making DC casting work, but not as a self healing, Shiradi WF with twists? Sweet.

Guys, this game is busted with uneven prestiges and no racial prestige for most races this alone could expand the game and build choices enormously.

Get ready for a different game and get excited.

[Seikojin]

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

I think with forum breakdown and survey specific details for people to submit focused feedback, it could work, but I also understand and see currently, the lack of focused feedback.

I have am going to offer specific feedback shortly, now that I have tried several things out.

[Missing_Minds]

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

I would say continue with the first plan. Get the rest of the classes out and focus there. Then open the floodates after that to the multi classing.

Perhapes by then someone will have figured out how to fix lama so the rest of us may actually have a chance to provide proper feedback vs. relying upon what forumites say because we are unable to both download then later connect to Lama.

[Seikojin]

Please, some dev needs to address this! I made a post on this in one of Squeak's threads which has gotten nothing but agreement in response. Nobody was asking for the enhancement system to be changed and rebuilt from the ground up, just a better UI and the addition of the missing/incomplete PrEs. The core functionality of the live system, underneath the GUI, is much more straightforward and intuitive and also provides far greater build freedom than this new thing you've dreamed up, which nobody at all was even asking for!

I was concerned at first too, but after getting in and tinkering with it, I am less concerned, more excited, and definitely have something to say about what I think it needs to be awesomer.

[HatsuharuZ]

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

Multiclassing at this point will just complicate things at this point, imo. Suggestion: Wait until the phase when you release all the classes onto Lamm at once. That would be a good time, I think.