A few thoughts after reading...

[danotmano1998]

Originally Posted by danotmano1998
But the dev opened the door for bug reports. Heck, we were DARED to inundate them!

If I could get Lamma land to work again on my system, I would be flooding them with everything I saw wrong in the enhancement system.

Anyone can file a bug by clicking the link in my signature. You don't have to be in-game.

Yes, but... I will refrain from sending bug reports on the enhancement system until I have actually got Lammania client loaded and I have tested the enhancement trees myself. Otherwise, what would I be bug reporting on, exactly?

[sephiroth1084]

Another possible solution to the straight jacket feel of the current system with 80 AP is to allow Epic levels to add Action Points for enhancements the way heroic lvls do.

Level 25 would then give you 20 more AP to work with and lvl 28, 32 more.

This would make the game more dynamic in that higher lvl toons would have more freedom to take from here and there.

I like this idea, although I'd say that epic levels could grant fewer AP than heroic levels, since the majority of epic leveling is destiny-focused. Maybe 2 AP per epic level? Mind you, I'd love to have an extra 20 AP on my lvl 25 characters, but I doubt the devs would go for that.

[Matuse]

The only workable solution is to put in a general tab for each class that contains core abilities, and split the PrE stuff into their own much smaller trees. This allows us to retain the current functionality of having 1 PrE per class, since the other trees could be safely locked out once you invest into one of them, and making the investment into one of them doesn't prevent you from getting core abilities elsewhere. And yes, this could mean that a given character might have 3 general trees AND 3 PrE trees, in addition to the racial tree.

Dividing absolutely everything into PrE trees is a HORRENDOUS design decision that I honestly cannot fathom at all.

[Dandonk]

Dividing absolutely everything into PrE trees is a HORRENDOUS design decision that I honestly cannot fathom at all.

This does seem like a very, very bad decision indeed.

[SirValentine]

I don't particularly LIKE it, and no one stays in it a second longer than they need to, but it has abilities that can be used by a much larger percentage of folks passing through on their way to the end destiny they want to be in than many of the other destinies.

I use Fatesinger all the time! After the quest is over, I switch to Fatesinger while vendoring my loot. +14 or something extra to Haggle really makes a difference!

[Henky]

The only workable solution is to put in a general tab for each class that contains core abilities, and split the PrE stuff into their own much smaller trees. This allows us to retain the current functionality of having 1 PrE per class, since the other trees could be safely locked out once you invest into one of them, and making the investment into one of them doesn't prevent you from getting core abilities elsewhere. And yes, this could mean that a given character might have 3 general trees AND 3 PrE trees, in addition to the racial tree.

Dividing absolutely everything into PrE trees is a HORRENDOUS design decision that I honestly cannot fathom at all.

This /signedx100000000000000000000

I was doing a jpg with my thoughts on this same thing, but my english is very bad, so Matuse explanation is better than mine.

[EllisDee37]

- Cleric lost spell penetration
- Cleric's one "defender" prestige was vomited all over 2 trees, while dc caster and battlecleric trees omitted altogether.
- Rangers and pallies lost devotion lines.
- All spellcasters got a new skill tax
- Human Improved Recovery now costs double compared to live (move to tier 1,2,3 instead of 1,3,4 to fix)
- Your artificially restrictive tree system necessitated you padding them out with tons of junk (eg: cleric slas)

[maddmatt70]

26 bugs last night..BAH. My seven year old when he comes to work reports more than that in a day
Bring the wall.
I
Triple
Dog
Dare
You.

If your management would have made different decisions both a year ago and prior to that more bugs would have been submitted because more people would be playing ddo. There would also be a DDO2 as well of sorts. Too bad you do not have different management. Well all things end sooner or later.

[kingfisher]

The only workable solution is to put in a general tab for each class that contains core abilities, and split the PrE stuff into their own much smaller trees. This allows us to retain the current functionality of having 1 PrE per class, since the other trees could be safely locked out once you invest into one of them, and making the investment into one of them doesn't prevent you from getting core abilities elsewhere. And yes, this could mean that a given character might have 3 general trees AND 3 PrE trees, in addition to the racial tree.

Dividing absolutely everything into PrE trees is a HORRENDOUS design decision that I honestly cannot fathom at all.

this is a good idea that has been suggested to many different devs in many different threads. its still a good idea. not that they will listen.

[ZzpxpzZ]

I feel like many people in this thread seem to be extremely afraid of change crying loss of options only because old options are not there any more.

This was the same situation as with the armor change (I am not saying that the new system is perfect by any means, certainly I feel the top end of AC is a bit too weak currently.) where there was a huge outcry because it nerfed a very tiny minority of builds that were completely and utterly AC focused.

The flip side of that coin was that the vast vast vast majority of builds that completely dumped AC by end game now actually get at least some benefit from AC.

The same situation is here:

There are most definitely going to be builds out there that no longer work in this situation. Some old options will certainly disappear - whats important is how many new options open up from this.

Remember, losing a build doesnt necessarily mean fewer builds, it may just mean different builds. Not to mention, I am sure it is possible to build a build that fulfills most of the premises of an older build one way or another once we have all our options.

[Charononus]

I feel like many people in this thread seem to be extremely afraid of change crying loss of options only because old options are not there any more.

This was the same situation as with the armor change (I am not saying that the new system is perfect by any means, certainly I feel the top end of AC is a bit too weak currently.) where there was a huge outcry because it nerfed a very tiny minority of builds that were completely and utterly AC focused.

The flip side of that coin was that the vast vast vast majority of builds that completely dumped AC by end game now actually get at least some benefit from AC.

The same situation is here:

There are most definitely going to be builds out there that no longer work in this situation. Some old options will certainly disappear - whats important is how many new options open up from this.

Remember, losing a build doesnt necessarily mean fewer builds, it may just mean different builds. Not to mention, I am sure it is possible to build a build that fulfills most of the premises of an older build one way or another once we have all our options.

Some threads just cry doom but more have been this is bad and here is why. I suggest you read them before insulting everyone that thinks this is a bad change.

[ZzpxpzZ]

Some threads just cry doom but more have been this is bad and here is why. I suggest you read them before insulting everyone that thinks this is a bad change.

I feel like what you just said does not make any sense. Please clarify what you are trying to say.

[Charononus]

I feel like what you just said does not make any sense. Please clarify what you are trying to say.

That many posts have spelled out specific problems why this new system is bad, and that your previous post was insulting and that you really haven't tried to understand the problems with the system and would rather be a turbine mouthpiece.

[ZzpxpzZ]

The only workable solution is to put in a general tab for each class that contains core abilities, and split the PrE stuff into their own much smaller trees. This allows us to retain the current functionality of having 1 PrE per class, since the other trees could be safely locked out once you invest into one of them, and making the investment into one of them doesn't prevent you from getting core abilities elsewhere. And yes, this could mean that a given character might have 3 general trees AND 3 PrE trees, in addition to the racial tree.

Dividing absolutely everything into PrE trees is a HORRENDOUS design decision that I honestly cannot fathom at all.

I can sort of see this but at the same time I feel like it would be taking significant steps back on the good changes to the enhancement system in order to avoid some of the more negative aspects.

I would suggest instead of having a general tree, make the prestige trees slightly bigger by fitting in more duplicates of the basic abilities in all the trees. That is to say, the most basic things should be available in the tree no matter what tree you are in, or at least in more trees than just one.

Otherwise, the biggest benefit of the new enhancement system is how much you can get out of a prestige class without being too heavily invested in the base class. If there were few abilities in prestige trees, they would have to be limited again by class level the way they are today.

[ZzpxpzZ]

That many posts have spelled out specific problems why this new system is bad, and that your previous post was insulting and that you really haven't tried to understand the problems with the system and would rather be a turbine mouthpiece.

Not at all, specific problems are specific and by nature of this being an alpha there will be problems.

I am just saying that there are a lot of people in this thread shouting doom about things that are not true at all because they dont look at the big picture, rather they take a look at one single thing, compare it to how things are on live, and then make a major claim like this system being as limited as Neverwinters which is a complete non sequitur.

Change is difficult for a some people, even just in general. My concern is that too much opposition to change will kill this game. Having played this game since the original launch, I can tell you that this game is very, very, very different now than it was then. Certainly not all changes were good, I did not agree with many of the changes, however the one thing that I can definitely agree on, is that good or bad, if this game had not changed, it would be dead. Frankly, people get bored of the same old thing, even when they used to greatly enjoy that. That is why content has to keep coming no matter how great the old content was. New ways to grow characters, higher level caps, new and stronger gear, these things are necessary for the longevity of MMOs even if sometimes they unsettle people with things like obviating old achievements etc.

I can see where things can be hard, but major changes HAVE to happen to MMOs or they become stale, and this game is way old enough to become stale.

[Charononus]

Not at all, specific problems are specific and by nature of this being an alpha there will be problems.

I am just saying that there are a lot of people in this thread shouting doom about things that are not true at all because they dont look at the big picture, rather they take a look at one single thing, compare it to how things are on live, and then make a major claim like this system being as limited as Neverwinters which is a complete non sequitur.

Change is difficult for a some people, even just in general. My concern is that too much opposition to change will kill this game. Having played this game since the original launch, I can tell you that this game is very, very, very different now than it was then. Certainly not all changes were good, I did not agree with many of the changes, however the one thing that I can definitely agree on, is that good or bad, if this game had not changed, it would be dead. Frankly, people get bored of the same old thing, even when they used to greatly enjoy that. That is why content has to keep coming no matter how great the old content was. New ways to grow characters, higher level caps, new and stronger gear, these things are necessary for the longevity of MMOs even if sometimes they unsettle people with things like obviating old achievements etc.

I can see where things can be hard, but major changes HAVE to happen to MMOs or they become stale, and this game is way old enough to become stale.

NWO no but it is very very similar to rift http://riftbuilds.com/ to see what I mean. That said with the other problems ddo has getting rid of something that did right for the sake of change is not a good thing. The cure is worse than the disease and feels very similar in some ways to the nge.

[kingfisher]

Not at all, specific problems are specific and by nature of this being an alpha there will be problems.

I am just saying that there are a lot of people in this thread shouting doom about things that are not true at all because they dont look at the big picture, rather they take a look at one single thing, compare it to how things are on live, and then make a major claim like this system being as limited as Neverwinters which is a complete non sequitur.

saying that there are more options and that is better is just as false a statement. there is no way to look at this but anything as a nerf to customization. if this were to hit live, no character would be able to do what they could today. going. its a COMPLETE change from what has made this old game great.

[ZzpxpzZ]

saying that there are more options and that is better is just as false a statement. there is no way to look at this but anything as a nerf to customization. if this were to hit live, no character would be able to do what they could today. going. its a COMPLETE change from what has made this old game great.

I dont know that I particularly agree. I will confirm once they have released all of the trees to play with all at once, but looking at what is available now, plus what has leaked on other class trees late last year, I would say that even after 15 lives, only 2 of which were pure and most were very diverse from each other, (what can I say, I get bored of my characters quickly) I could probably build a character with at least a very similar/same playstyle for almost all of them. I have also already settled on at least one new character build I want to try that was completely impossible in the current system as well.

It is certainly hard to say for sure right now when we do not know exactly how things are going to fall together in all the other trees but I just do not see the limitations other people are seeing now that are not present on live. It seems like people are feeling like if you cant reach tier 5 or 6 in a tree its not worth having it at all, but it seems to me that tier 5 or 6 in a tree is basically the equivalent of having the tier 3 of a prestige class which currently on live entirely excludes any other prestige class.

Instead consider yourself as being able to reach tier 2 or 3 in all classes and maybe a bit higher in one instead. Shrug, we will see but as things stand I can definitely imagine a LOT of different builds.

Instead of trying to figure out how to fit your current builds into the new system, maybe leave that for later when you have a better grasp of the system, and rather see what you CAN build now and how it shapes up.

[Vargouille]

Just look at the arties, you need to be near the top of the tree before you get the BE clickie that you used to have at L6

Spending 20 AP gets you to Tier 4. Spending 4 more AP gets Endless Fusillade.

Tier 4 does not correspond to high character level requirement.

[Vargouille]

Varg? Do you guys feel that a 10% chance to fire an extra projectile is equal to a 10% doublestrike, given the difference between attack speeds? It would seem to me that given how much faster melee is compared to ranged they would have much more chances to proc that 10% over a set time period.

Yes. They are equal. Each provides 10% more DPS or on-hit effects compared to before, regardless of how fast or slow you were attacking before you got the Doublestrike or Extra Shot.