Choice constriction

[SealedInSong]

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Originally Posted by Aashrym
I disagree with any of players stating that multiclassing is more difficult. There is virtually no reason to make a pure class in this tree system because the only thing we're giving up for multiclassing is the capstone, much like live now.
In one sense, perhaps not. In the fact that you're possibly going to spend a bucket-ton of points on mess you didn't want just to get there ... yes.

You'll be able to multiclass - but you aren't really multi-classing, you're adding another class so you can access the PRE ... and those themselves are starting to look pretty scripted. If you want to do this PRE tree, you really need to build this way (defenders and shields, for instance). We'll see if they make some changes to make those aspects more optional as opposed to core.

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With the enhancements heavily front loaded like they are the multiclassing gives the same options for advancement in any tree that any pure class does and with the AP costs per tier only one tree will ever have top tier enhancements regardless of the number of trees (edit, maybe 2). Right now multi-classing looks like a huge advantage as far as the enhancement trees go because it opens up the opportunity to select any tree in existence on the build as that one tree in which to focus and still gives us the ability to cherry pick some other abilities.

Given the lack of enthusiasm in some trees the ability to select a favorite tree by multiclassing looks great. With most classes front loaded and the trees front loaded splashing makes it easy. The paladin 14 / cleric 6 with which I was experimenting would be an example for a more healing focused paladin. It doesn't take a lot of splash to have access to almost an entire tree and giving some classes splash value that didn't previously exist. 6 cleric levels gave me everything except 3 PrE abilities and 2 of those didn't hold a lot of value for me. A cleric splash looks like a pretty strong choice to supplement healing on any class now just by using the wand and scroll, and the turn based abilities.
Definitely going to be some gems. I've had a few ideas scratched out on virtual napkins previously when we first got news of the racial PREs.

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Regardless of the number of "3 trees limitation is stupid" posts it's obvious the actual limiting factor is the AP cost per tier unlock and more trees in which we have no AP to spend is meaningless.
Number of AP is going to be huge. Number of trees could be pretty bad if you wanted to, for instance, be an AA on top of some other class like Bard. I have no idea what the Bard trees look like and with things not in a general tree, that # of trees limit has the potential to be a royal pain.

It isn't an either-or ... "AP costs" or "3 trees" ... right now it's too early to tell what the "biggest" limit is. They are both limits. AP costs are likely easier for the devs to change, so that may be a softer limit. The "3 trees" folks are looking at it from the 12/6/2 side - a 3 class split with moderate investment into at least two of the classes - given that general things right now are split and exclusive to specific PREs, this may mean that build w/ Ninja for monk 6 may not get an animal path, 10k stars, something.

Too early to tell.

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If we go ahead with the racial PrE unlocks we're not even restricting multiclass builds from capstone enhancements to boot.
I think the "3 trees' crowd would have even more of a case here.

From what I've seen so far multiclassing has a lot of draw and pure classing only has a draw for more choices for captsones and possibly spell casting ability, much like we see on live now.

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What I see changing is which splashes and builds are working and I can see a lot of builds not working relatively as well as before. I would agree with free LR+5's because a change this big does affect a lot of players and that falls into the "fair's fair" category in my mind after the time investment those players made in builds that do become less relatively effective.
LR+5 may do it, though honestly I expect the small splash builds (16/2/2 for instance) are going to adapt much more easily anyway, and may even benefit. It's the 11/9 and 12/6/2 guys that have the most potential impact - and a +5 may not even get it done for them.


Anyway - we're not even talking about how some abilities may move deeper into trees. Fusilade. etc.

Well-stated +1

[SealedInSong]

Monks are getting ridden hard and put away wet. Just delete your toon now. Void 4 and Serenity require top tier henshin, healing amp requires shintao, touch of death is top tier ninja spy. So... yeah... having all 3 like I do right now, flat out impossible. In their place you can get a bunch of laughable abilities that are going to just make you want to TR into a barbarian that much faster.

I have no intention of ever TRing her into a barbarian, but... yeah. There's no way I can afford what I used to have--namely, everything above.

Sure, I might get some new toys and I'm happy about that, but it's a strict nerf on my setup no matter how you spin it.

[SealedInSong]

I have been playing since beta. I don't post much because I just never felt it really mattered,,,kinda still feel that, but here it is anyway. I get the distinct impression from this process that the main reason this "over haul" is happening is that YOU (the dev people) want to make your lives managing the game easier. By doing so, I'm assuming that you feel it will make for a better overall game experience for your customers that play the game. There is much that needed done with existing content and PRe's that would have fulfilled that goal, but you have decided to make a whole new game.....not sure the intent if above will be met. I just don't see it.

I'm very disappointed with this particular style and implementation. It is clear from the layout of ALL the trees that what you are doing is centrally managing the game. It will no longer be a creative player environment from the perspective of character creation. You have created, albeit in a very distributed way, little boxes that you want our characters to be in. Healers will heal, tanks will tank, Wizards will waggle, Sorc's will gripe, Hybrids and multiclass toons will discover that their respective boxes are much smaller than they once were. From first brush, I can't see how you will be able to change this overall affect, irrespective of the "lifting of restrictions" currently in place.

I'll not be making bold statements like I'm leaving etc etc. I have not played a single other MMO since I started playing DDO. You have kept my attention (sometimes barely) but kept it just the same for many years. Sadly, it seems you have succeeded in losing it. I'm not excited about the new system ie the whole new game. You've committed the egregious error of; If it ain't broke don't fix it. What kept my attention? The following: 1) Dynamic Character creation via racial and class enhancements and feat selection. 2) Voice Chat it may seem trivial but it has made the game play experience much richer 3) varied content. multiple ways to accomplish a win depending on party make up 4) Loot, loot, loot. 5) Epic character and quest additions.

With what I've experience so far, I feel like turbine has really dropped the ball and has put a solid game in jeopardy. I will be going free to play on both my accounts. I will hold out hope that it will be better than what I have experienced thus far. But given the overall mechanic of the trees and the focus you've put on "abilities tied to class tied to role in some "nominal party make up", I am not overly optimistic this will be for the better.

I hope that you can salvage something from this.

I'm starting to think I just want the old enhancement system to stay, but with the addition of new things like an earthgrabbing dwarf. The latter I like. The former I like. The alpha... I haven't started to like yet.

[EllisDee37]

I really like a lot of what I've seen in the ranger tree, and the pally sneak preview has me drooling.

Given a choice between the system we have on live and the alpha system currently proposed (tier 5s lock each other out, AP gates lowered) I would choose the live system every single time. "Points spent in tree" is fundamentally too restrictive regardless of the actual gate values.

[SealedInSong]

I really like a lot of what I've seen in the ranger tree, and the pally sneak preview has me drooling.

Given a choice between the system we have on live and the alpha system currently proposed (tier 5s lock each other out, AP gates lowered) I would choose the live system every single time. "Points spent in tree" is fundamentally too restrictive regardless of the actual gate values.

I want to keep our current system and just get some of these new enhancements. Agreed.

[SealedInSong]

I'm going to bug report this, too, but I understand through examples, so I decided to grab pencil and paper and try and convert my existing clonk, Terebinthia, into a similar build under the new alpha system. I've popped it in here in case it's useful to anyone else.

Right now she's a 18/2 wisdom based casting clonk with 3 feats invested in spell penetration, because I want my spells to land, dammit! I have no interest in TRing her whatsoever, so I need to make her work in the new system as is.

Her enhancements on live, in no particular order, are:

Radiant Servant I and II
Dol Dorn's Champion and Unyielding Sovereignty (because it's a prereq and sometimes US is very handy)
Charisma II
Wisdom III
Divine Vitality I (because it's a prereq)
Improved Turning (because it's a prereq)
Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Human Adapability (Wisdom)
Greater Human Adaptability (Con)
Human Improved Recovery III
Human Versatility I (to get AP requirements, although I also use it for UMD)
Way of Patient Tortoise I (HP but mainly filler enhancement)
Racial Toughness III
Improved Heal II (prereq)
Prayer of Life I
Prayer of Incredible Life I
Spell Penetration III
Smiting I (so 20 light spellpower on live)
Life Magic IV (so 80 positive and negative spellpower on live)

So.

What can be done under the new system?

I decided to tackle the Human tree first - 22 points to spend here if I want Human Improved Recovery III.
I went for
Human Versatility (skills and spellpower) - 1 AP - an improvement from live since spellpower isn't an option
Human Adaptability and Greater adaptability (as before) - 4 AP
The new action surge, in part because I needed the points, but also because it looked interesting - 4 points, needed to make the points allocations work.
Human Improved Recovery I and II - 4 AP

13 APs and so far so good - but I need 22 in total to get the third rank in Human Improved Recovery. That's 7 points of fluff to find to spend to get back to where I am on live. Not good. I would probably go skill focus of some sort and perhaps Don't Count me Out, but that's really not ideal. But 22 points is what's necessary so 22 points go in.

OK, on to the Cleric Enhancements - 58 points to spend. What's glaringly obvious is a) no spell penetration and b) you have to spend 42 points in the healbot domain to get aura. If anything the aura is even more important to a caster cleric as it's the way you have to make your spell points go further. You just can't leave efficiency like that on the table. I fully agree with the variety of posts that say this needs to be moved to be an ability all clerics can pick, or be made cheaper, or some blooming thing.

Anyway, I picked
Extra Turning III - no space for a charisma buff so my UMD gets nerfed too, boo. But the extra turning will help make up for it, plus an extra turn (although even as a charisma dumped cleric I rarely run out). 3 points
Wand Mastery III - need it for the 5 prereqs, and this is an improvement on live. 3 points
Efficient Empower III - I don't need this on live, but already I am struggling to find stuff to spend things on, and at least it helps with spell point conservation. 6 points.
Pacifism (picked because it's a prereq only, yuck - why would I want this? I struggle to think of even a raid scenario where I would want this) 2 points
Ability score increase (Wisdom) II - 4 points
Unyielding Sovereignty (I like that you can choose your faith via a feat at the start, I think that's much more logical. But where have the Silver Flame and Undying Court options gone? Far better to have this be one of these options depending on your faith choice, and make it part of the core cleric tree) - 2 points
Improved Empower Healing (was an OK choice, and I am really struggling to find must haves here) - 2 points
Positive Energy Burst, no brainer, 2 points
And of course the Aura - 2 points

That takes me to 26 points - but I need to have 40 points in the tree (42 once you have purchased the aura) so again, I am forced to spend a mighty 16 points on fluff that doesn't interest me to get to my previously core ability

 :(

I am also down by 1 wisdom point compared to live, and my Spell Penetration has gone the way of the dodo. I can't get the Spell Pen, but the ability point is available if I go to the protection domain and spend 10 points there (12 with the ability point). This will leave me with 4 points to blow in Monk.

All good, right? But sadly, there's very little to interest me in the Protector domain. I eventually plump for:
Toughness III - 3 points
Awareness I - complete junk, but it's the only 1 point ability
Close Wounds - potentially interesting SLA - 2 points
Efficient Metamagic, taken twice - 4 points (undecided which I'd choose)
Ability score - Wisdom - 2 points

So 4 points left - at the moment looking at what's visible I would probably go Shintao and take 2 ranks of the defensive stance.


So what's missing? I'm down 2 points of Charisma (annoying), 3 points of Spell Penetration (very annoying). I've had to spend a ton of points on fluff to get what I want.

Spellpower comparisons

Positive: Live - 80 Lama - 63 (Healing Domain) + 12 (USP from Protector Domain) + 4 (Shintao) + 17 (Heal skill wisdom mod)  + 10 (3 ranks in Altruism, one of the fluff enhancements I'd take) = 106. I thought there was an additional boost of 25 from Improved Empower Healing, but that is just replicating the second tier of RS on live, if I have understood the comment below directly. Still a mild improvement without slotting in Heal or Spellcraft.

Light: Live - 20. Lama (42 (Healing Domain) + 12 (Protector Domain) +5 (Int mod for Spellcraft - is this right for Light damage?) = 69 - big improvement

Negative: Live - 80. Lama 12 (Protector Domain) +17 (Heal skill wisdom mod) = 29. Big drop. I almost never use inflict spells personally, but think it's worth flagging up.

Everything else: 12 (Protector Domain) +5 (Int mod for Spellcraft), apart from Sonic which is just 12 from the Protector Domain. Mild improvement.

Crits: I understand there's a generic autogrant feat for spellcasters which covers this, and on balance for me it probably works out better.

Overall that's positive, but the reduction to negative spellpower does bother me.

So, my final review is this:

1. Find a place to put back spell penetration, and divine might, while you are at it. The protection tree as it stands is horrible, if you are only going to have two paths, then the more martial / offensive caster aspects have to go in there. Get rid of some of the junk SLAs or something.
2. Stop making us spend lots of APs on fluff to get to the stuff we want, in particular the radiant servant aura is way too useful to leave on the table, and is useful to way more than healbots.
3. Stop pigeonholing the class. Clerics can do way more than heal and buff.

I've had to do this on paper (can't get into Lama so please do point out if I've missed anything in the spellpower calcs).

Make clerics not suck. Because they will go from one of the best DDO classes to one of the worst considering the alpha preview. Thanks. <3

+Terebinthia

[SealedInSong]

I'm very concerned reading these changes.

Cromix, my Cleric, is a a multi tr designed to be able to dc cast using Wisdom. What I've read here so far (no, haven't had time to log to lammy) is suggesting that his already severely weakened offensive casting being eradicated into uselessness.

Dear Turbine Devs,

Clerics can heal yes. They can also offensive/defensive/damage cast. They can also achieve competitive melee. This is strongly supported all throughout the multiple existing editions of this game.

You have taken their hallmark 8th level spells and restricted them to the subclass Druid only.

Every update or change you make further limits or eliminates options for a Cleric to do anything other than stand around and heal people.

For players who actually have played Clerics in PnP, these changes as they read are so disappointing I'd never consider playing one. My 4th life offensive casting raid hjealer will likely be another class entirely. It's really, truly, bad enough that many of us who play them are forced into a role which is unsatisfying, subject to the most abuse, thankless, and at times expensive. Looking at these changes as they are described and processing this over the last few days has possessed me with a level of sardonicism that is unparalleled compared to all of the other class changes that have affected my game experience negatively.

A Cleric is a can assume many roles simultaneously empowered by their faith in their diety. What I see and have read and considered only places the role of the Cleric as a healer for anyone else. I understand this game is an MMO. Yet I find that I take great issue with what you've turned the Cleric into as opposed to what the class actually is. And for that reason I will never play one again. Which is a shame, because it's my second favorite class in Dungeons and Dragons.

I'd ask that you consider reinstating the spells you've taken. I'd also ask you to include and not skip over the domains available to the class. With what I see here - just omg, this is terrible. I'd never want to play one in this game ever. I'll continue to play them in PnP however.

God save the clerics.

[Drona]

I will reserve my judgement until it hits live.

Maj has said some changes regarding to AP and stuff (like haste boost missing from ftr as a bug) are done.

As far as customization and diversity, there is only 2 builds in Thelanis: Juggernaut and AA monkcher. Almost every player I knew has TRd their melees into this. I do not know whether it is good or bad.

[SealedInSong]

I will reserve my judgement until it hits live.

Maj has said some changes regarding to AP and stuff (like haste boost missing from ftr as a bug) are done.

As far as customization and diversity, there is only 2 builds in Thelanis: Juggernaut and AA monkcher. Almost every player I knew has TRd their melees into this. I do not know whether it is good or bad.

Considering that the title of this thread is "Choice Constriction" and you're describing a whole server that has boiled down [13 classes]x[1-3 prestiges] into two builds...I'd say Bad. Capital B. Probably bolded.

However, I think most will agree the reason juggs and monkchers are so prevalent is that our current endgame--epic elite--is so wildly unbalanced in terms of trash mob's inflated incoming damage, saves, and HP that the only recourse is for the player to make builds that 1) mow down mobs before they themselves are mown down (fury multishot+dreadnought cleaves), 2) have excellent damage mitigation, and 3) self-healing.

Not having all three of those things is a pretty quick track to piking on EE.

The enhancement alpha indicates that we may have new options for builds, of course, but my thread is focusing on what build options it is closing off for no good reason, or live builds that it is destroying for no good reason.

I'm sure juggs and monkchers will survive and probably flourish all the same with the enhancement pass, however, unless something drastic happens between alpha and live.