DPS pally build?

[EllisDee37]

Stunning Fist - you are probably right

Stunning Blow - maybe:

17 +4 +8 +1 +3 = 32 +1enh. +2(ship) +5 (primal) +2(yugo) = 40 +5 lvl = 46 (one level up into CON for epic toughness.)

10 base
18 STR
10 item
05 eCM
03 Dwarven Tactics III
03 Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
06 LD
=55
03 Improved Sunder debuff
~58
01 Profane STR gloves

... maybe a bit tricky to get a decent 60+ GH EE level stun. But good enough for MOTU.

I was refering to the 15/3/2 build, but even dropping down the fighter strategy enhancements you're in the 50s, which is way better than I was expecting.

Could squeeze one more out of spare hand, assuming its +6 doesn't stack with eCM's +5.

If going for an endgamer, as opposed to a throw-away alt or just a pally past life build, you could always add another +3 from fighter past lives.

[nni]

10 base
18 STR
10 item
05 eCM
03 Dwarven Tactics III
03 Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
06 LD
=55
03 Improved Sunder debuff
~58
01 Profane STR gloves

Wouldn't fighter strategy cap at I, due to only 3 levels of fighter?

[nni]

Keep this in mind as well, if you splash you are likely not going to even get L4 spells -- making WIS even less important.

Regarding feats and combat styles, THF is generally considered dominant at the moment. Splashing Ranger for access to TWF and bow feats is clever but probably does not increase DPS.

Instead, I would probably look at 12 Paladin/8 Fighter. This surrenders evasion but many characters do without evasion. Evasion in and of itself should not be the deciding factor on the build.

15 levels of paladin gives you 2 lvl 4 spells (Zeal and CSW). 12 gets you none. If you're giving up the lvl 4 spells, you might as well reverse the splash and take only 2 paladin.

[Therigar]

15 levels of paladin gives you 2 lvl 4 spells (Zeal and CSW). 12 gets you none. If you're giving up the lvl 4 spells, you might as well reverse the splash and take only 2 paladin.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the build. But, it seemed to me that OP asked for a paladin that could function in epic elite but was primarily intended to get the paladin life out of the way.

So, I have to ask what is the difference between a fighter and a paladin in terms of overall build. By this I mean, what feats and enhancements do fighters get that make them better at DPS (the title issue for the thread).

As far as I can tell there are only a couple of things that give fighters an advantage. One is their abundance of feats allowing them to use a wide variety of tactics (stunning blow, sunder, trip, etc.). Another is the stat enhancements to STR. The third is their selection of action boosts.

So, the objective is to maximize those fighter qualities while still maintaining the paladin identity. Action boosts can be compensated for via human versatility. The added feats from 8 fighter levels can be used to focus on tactics. The lack of fighter STR enhancements puts the paladin build down a maximum of 3 STR which is 1 or 2 points of damage -- a necessary consequence of maintaining the paladin as the dominant class.

When I ran my cleric I almost never used CSW -- CMW was powerful enough to meet almost every healing need. The loss of CSW isn't that important to my way of thinking.

Zeal might be. But, the idea is to compensate via tactics -- primarily stunning blow. This is essentially the way my monk operates (and, yes, I know stunning blow has a longer cool down -- but the overall concept is the same).

[EllisDee37]

So, I have to ask what is the difference between a fighter and a paladin in terms of overall build. By this I mean, what feats and enhancements do fighters get that make them better at DPS (the title issue for the thread).

Well, there's a bunch:

Strength
- Easily start with maxed + all levelups (eg: 18+6 if human)
- +3 enhancements (pallies get none)
- +8 from power surge (costs an action boost, lasts 1 minute)

Feats:
- Weapon Specialization (+2 damage)
- Greater Weapon Specialization (+2 damage)
- Being able to easily fit all the non-fighter-specific dps feats without conflict (pallies have to make tradeoffs)

Enhancements:
- Haste boost (this is the big one, and human vers doesn't make up for it because fighters can also take human vers)
- Able to spec for 11 action boosts/rest, 14 with legendary dreadnought (plus LD removes the cooldown on them)
- Permanent 10% double-strike (pallies have the advantage here, getting this ability from only 14/15 levels instead of 20)
- Weapon Specialization II (+2 damage)
- Weapon Mastery III (+1 critical range, +4 damage, +8 seeker, improved glancing blows)

Tactics:
- +3 DC to all tactics from kensei prestige
- +4 DC to any tactic (can be taken for multiple tactics)

Straight damage-wise: +5 from strength, +4 from feats, and +6 from enhancements for a total of +15 per swing, with an extra +8 seeker toss in for good measure plus expanded crit range on every swing.

Pallies realistically get +6 from divine might. No way can they manage to go 18/6 on strength and qualify for DMIV with anything short of a +4 tome, and doing it with a +4 stretches them pretty thin. Typically you'd go 15+3 tome for DMIII. A +5 tome gets DMIV without issue, bringing them up to +8 per swing.

They both get 10% doublestrike.

Fighters then get +12 DC on their tactical of choice compared to pallies thanks to DC buffs and strength advantage.



In the end, it's sort of like fighters get the equivalent of divine sacrifice on every swing for free. Plus a massive haste boost potential. And of course a major edge in tacticals.

[emptysands]

In the end, it's sort of like fighters get the equivalent of divine sacrifice on every swing for free. Plus a massive haste boost potential. And of course a major edge in tacticals.

But only scroll/pot self heals, and lower saves. Haste Boost can be twisted from LD - it's class type so stacks with human vert.


Weapon Specialization II is weapon specific, and Weapon Specialization weapon type (slashing, etc) specific.

Paladin also get self-cast divine favour for another +3 dmg.

[EllisDee37]

But only scroll/pot self heals, and lower saves. Haste Boost can be twisted from LD - it's class type so stacks with human vert.
[...]
Paladin also get self-cast divine favour for another +3 dmg.

Both good points. Pure fighters are basically looking at umd heal scrolls and SF pots.

Weapon Specialization II is weapon specific, and Weapon Specialization weapon type (slashing, etc) specific.

Not sure that matters. Improved Crit is weapon type specific too; does that mean it's discounted?

[Loriac]

Another idea that might work with the level 28 epic feat is Human 15/4 Ranger/1 Monk:

7 base, 1 monk, 3 epic, 1 Human = 12 feats.

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, TWF, Precise Shot

Defensive (3): Toughness, Empower Healing, Quicken
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, Cleave, GC, OC
Ranged(4): PBS, Manyshot, IPS, IC: Ranged

Manyshot - Rq: PBS and Rapid Shot, DEX 17 and BAB6
Improved Precise Shot - Rq: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, DEX 19, BAB +11

Plus you get Ram's Might and Zeal.

I prefer the 15Pal/3Rgr/2Monk split I suggested earlier; you lose ram's might, but gain evasion and an extra feat (which could be used to buy precise shot), which is much more useful imo, and the 3rd ranger level gets you access to DoS without having to spend a feat.

[Purkilius]

I prefer the 15Pal/3Rgr/2Monk split I suggested earlier; you lose ram's might, but gain evasion and an extra feat (which could be used to buy precise shot), which is much more useful imo, and the 3rd ranger level gets you access to DoS without having to spend a feat.

I like this split better, but does double-strike and DM work on ranged?

[Therigar]

Well, there's a bunch:

I think you missed my point (and that all of what you posted is summed up in my statement about feats and enhancements).

It isn't the quantitative analysis of pure numbers but rather how can I make a character that is ~50% paladin as effective as possible.

A 10/10 split doesn't work because fighter is before paladin so it counts as a fighter life. More paladin levels qualifies you for more things (spells and enhancements) but are they enough to bridge the gap -- I don't know.

I've previously (another thread) noted that I'm not sure that paladins are that bad off if they are in the right destiny. Heroic content really isn't the problem and even eNorm and most eHard isn't a problem either.

The problematic area is the request to be eElite capable. And, I'm not sure which is a better approach.

I don't think that any paladin dominant multiclass will produce the kind of damage that a fighter produces. The closest might be pure paladins with endless smites twisted and operating in Fury.

That argues for a CHA build and takes us back to my comments elsewhere (other posts) about the lack of CHA based weapons -- the ideal solution for paladins.

Maybe the best solution is pure TWF wielding dual eElyds. I just thought that a tactics approach might be a workable alternative. Maybe it isn't.

[emptysands]

Both good points. Pure fighters are basically looking at umd heal scrolls and SF pots.

Not sure that matters. Improved Crit is weapon type specific too; does that mean it's discounted?

Not really, but a build with divine favour that switches weapon types will not need to worry about having WS/GWS for each type and just IC1 and IC2.

[EllisDee37]

Not really, but a build with divine favour that switches weapon types will not need to worry about having WS/GWS for each type and just IC1 and IC2.

I'm not sure what you mean. My paladin is the classic "golf-bag of crafted weapons" style, with a TON of crafted weapons since he doesn't have Cleaver, eSoS or eAGA. He has an evil trash beater, a neutral trash beater, a demon+devil beater, an aberration beater, a LoB beater, etc... Even with almost a full page of two-handed weapons, he has exactly two types of weapons: falchions and mauls.

Are you really using different kinds of slashing weapons? Like, say, you wield eSoS normally for trash, but your crafted devil beater is a falchion, your crafted LoB beater is a greataxe, etc...?

I think you missed my point

Oops, sure did.

[emptysands]

Are you really using different kinds of slashing weapons? Like, say, you wield eSoS normally for trash, but your crafted devil beater is a falchion, your crafted LoB beater is a greataxe, etc...?

I was mainly being pedantic.

But say if you took a 6 Paladin splash with ranged and handwraps, it would will get a +2 luck (divine favour at CL6) bonus to either weapon type.

[Loriac]

Regarding feats and combat styles, THF is generally considered dominant at the moment. Splashing Ranger for access to TWF and bow feats is clever but probably does not increase DPS.

You don't splash ranger for access to TWF, but for cheap bow strength and rapid shot. This opens up manyshot, which is huge burst damage in FotW. There is a strong argument that only builds with manyshot can really call themselves dps in today's game.

I'd completely ignore the TWF you get as a ranger 2 and stick with 2H weapons.