Wishful thinking: Rogue Mechanics

[HastyPudding]

Another thread in the class section got me thinking about this PrE. It's horribly outdated. Barring the deepwood sniper, no other class has been shat on more than the mechanic by other players. Artificers outclass them in so many ways and I think the new enhancement update that is looming around the corner needs to give them some love.

So, a few 'wishful thinkings' and 'suggestions' concerning the mechanic:

Constructs
There are several PrE's that have a certain focus on certain monsters:
-- Monk's Shintao have bonuses against non-lawful outsiders, aberrations and undead.
-- Paladin's Hunter of the Dead has many bonuses against the undead.
-- Paladin's Knight of the Chalice is good against demons and evil outsiders.
-- Cleric's Silver Flame Exorcists, while not implemented yet, are strong against outsiders.
-- Barbarian's Occult Slayer, also not implemented yet, is strong against enemy spellcasters.

Mechanics need to be like this, as well. I think bonus damage, attack, and/or saves vs constructs makes perfect sense. The Smite Construct ability they have now is useless in a PrE that focuses more on ranged combat, as is the Repair Warforged ability, which is useless past the harbor. These both point towards specializing in constructs.

Trapmaking
Traps and grenades need to be made more useful; right now they're situational, at best, and even with high INT and trap skills, mechanic DC's on traps are still crappy past the mid levels. For the trouble you go through to collect the parts to make deadly traps, they're just not worth using past lvl 10ish. I did recently find that fire grenades can blast open wooden doors and light torches in Inferno of the Damned. There needs to be more utility for such things.

Traps
Mechanics are expert trappers, they need to be able to search/disable traps faster than other PrE's and artificers to show this. Maybe once you get high up in the enhancement tree you could get to a point where you can't get interrupted while searching/disabling/opening locks. Maybe call it 'Working Under Pressure' or something. I would actually find this very useful.

[Drakanous]

Mechanics are specialist for traps & there are so many deadly trap in dungeon already.

How about making hostile traps into friendly one as a mechanic PRE ability?

Instead of just disabling those, We can use it again for mobs
Of course, We can already use it against mobs, but it have risks sometimes. Because, u can be hurt by it.
Once you convert a trap into friendly one, players should not be hurt by it, but mobs should.

& Trap kills should be part of mechanic's kill count

And we need a significient boost for trap making : DC & dmg

[Failedlegend]

I hate to keep using Artos_Fabril's ideas whenever this comes up but he did make some GREAT suggestions (using the currently proposed new system)

Mechanic
Enhancement Name                 Cost Progression     Class Level Requirement     Benefit
Engineering                       1/1/1/1              3/6/9/12                    +1 to Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot
->Reverse Engineering             1/1/1                6/10/14                     +1 to Use Magic Device, +1 crafting level, +2 trap DC
Combat Engineer                   1/1/1/1/1/1/1        1/3/5/7/9/11/13             1 use per tier of "Combat Engineer"**
->Demolitionist                   1/1/1                9/11/13                     While Combat Engineer is active, your traps are emplaced instantly; traps and grenades have a 4% chance per tier to crit for double damage
->->Big Ba-da-boom                3                    15                          Consume a use of "Combat Engineer" to increase all trap, grenade, and crossbow damage by 50% for 8 seconds
->->->Mass Destruction            1                    18                          When your score a kill with a grenade, reclaim one use of "Combat Engineer"
Bolt-Ridden                       1/1/1/1/1            2/6/10/14/18                Repeater criticals reduce enemy fortification by 2% and fortitude saves by 1 for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
Mechanical Aptitude               1/1/1/1/1            4/7/10/13/16                Increase the enhancement bonus of your repeating crossbow by 1 per tier
->Repeater Specialization         1/1/1                8/12/16                     +2 damage per tier with your equipped repeater
->->Repeating Repeater            1/1/1/1/1            6/9/12/15/18                Your repeater has a 1% chance per tier to fire a second volley immediately
->->->Repeater Mastery            2/2                  15/18                       Reduce repeater reload time by 25% per tier (multiplicative stacking with rapid reload)
->->->->Sabot Shots               2                    18                          +1 to Critical multiplier on vorpal strikes with all crossbows/repeaters
Manual Dexterity                  1/1/1/1/1            3/6/9/12/15                 Reduces time to open lock or disarm by 20% per tier
->Nimble Mind                     3                    12                          Add your dex bonus to your disable device total
Practiced Eye                     1/1/1/1/1            1/3/5/7/9                   +1 spot and -20% search time per tier
Monkeywrencher                    1/1/1/1              3/8/13/18                   +1d6 per tier bane damage to constructs
->Wrack Construct                 1/1/1                5/10/15                     Wrack Construct I/II/III (as current)
->->Ruin Construct                2                    12                          Wrack construct stuns on crits; red/purple named lose additional 15% fort instead
Repair Construct                  1/1/1/1              1/4/7/10                    repair 1d3+3 per second, per tier - 15 second duration
Trap Resistance                   1/1/1                2/8/14                      +2 to saves vs. traps and +3 to all elemental resistances per tier

**Combat Engineer: Traps take 50% less time to place and enemies who successfully save still have their defenses compromised, reducing fortification by 10% for 10 seconds (does not stack with itself) 
Granted Benefits
Tier .5    Light Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; Critical fail while disarming trap dazes you, but does not explode the box
Tier 1     Add your Int bonus to crossbow/repeater damage; your trap DCs are increased; all of your traps and grenades deal 10% more damage
Tier 1.5   Heavy Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; +3 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and Search
Tier 2     Add half your dex bonus to sneak attack damage; your trap DCs are increased; +3% crit chance with traps and grenades (+0.5 multiplier)
Tier 2.5   Smite constructs/living constructs; +3 to elemental resistances, 10% damage reduction vs physical traps
Tier 3     Great Crossbow Proficientcy; your trap DCs are increased; traps and grenades deal addional 15% damage
Capstone:  +2 Int; All light/heavy/great crossbows you wield fire volleys of 3 bolts, instead of 1; Trap DCs increased

[HastyPudding]

I hate to keep using Artos_Fabril's ideas whenever this comes up but he did make some GREAT suggestions (using the currently proposed new system)

Mechanic
Enhancement Name                 Cost Progression     Class Level Requirement     Benefit
Engineering                       1/1/1/1              3/6/9/12                    +1 to Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot
->Reverse Engineering             1/1/1                6/10/14                     +1 to Use Magic Device, +1 crafting level, +2 trap DC
Combat Engineer                   1/1/1/1/1/1/1        1/3/5/7/9/11/13             1 use per tier of "Combat Engineer"**
->Demolitionist                   1/1/1                9/11/13                     While Combat Engineer is active, your traps are emplaced instantly; traps and grenades have a 4% chance per tier to crit for double damage
->->Big Ba-da-boom                3                    15                          Consume a use of "Combat Engineer" to increase all trap, grenade, and crossbow damage by 50% for 8 seconds
->->->Mass Destruction            1                    18                          When your score a kill with a grenade, reclaim one use of "Combat Engineer"
Bolt-Ridden                       1/1/1/1/1            2/6/10/14/18                Repeater criticals reduce enemy fortification by 2% and fortitude saves by 1 for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
Mechanical Aptitude               1/1/1/1/1            4/7/10/13/16                Increase the enhancement bonus of your repeating crossbow by 1 per tier
->Repeater Specialization         1/1/1                8/12/16                     +2 damage per tier with your equipped repeater
->->Repeating Repeater            1/1/1/1/1            6/9/12/15/18                Your repeater has a 1% chance per tier to fire a second volley immediately
->->->Repeater Mastery            2/2                  15/18                       Reduce repeater reload time by 25% per tier (multiplicative stacking with rapid reload)
->->->->Sabot Shots               2                    18                          +1 to Critical multiplier on vorpal strikes with all crossbows/repeaters
Manual Dexterity                  1/1/1/1/1            3/6/9/12/15                 Reduces time to open lock or disarm by 20% per tier
->Nimble Mind                     3                    12                          Add your dex bonus to your disable device total
Practiced Eye                     1/1/1/1/1            1/3/5/7/9                   +1 spot and -20% search time per tier
Monkeywrencher                    1/1/1/1              3/8/13/18                   +1d6 per tier bane damage to constructs
->Wrack Construct                 1/1/1                5/10/15                     Wrack Construct I/II/III (as current)
->->Ruin Construct                2                    12                          Wrack construct stuns on crits; red/purple named lose additional 15% fort instead
Repair Construct                  1/1/1/1              1/4/7/10                    repair 1d3+3 per second, per tier - 15 second duration
Trap Resistance                   1/1/1                2/8/14                      +2 to saves vs. traps and +3 to all elemental resistances per tier

**Combat Engineer: Traps take 50% less time to place and enemies who successfully save still have their defenses compromised, reducing fortification by 10% for 10 seconds (does not stack with itself) 
Granted Benefits
Tier .5    Light Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; Critical fail while disarming trap dazes you, but does not explode the box
Tier 1     Add your Int bonus to crossbow/repeater damage; your trap DCs are increased; all of your traps and grenades deal 10% more damage
Tier 1.5   Heavy Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; +3 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and Search
Tier 2     Add half your dex bonus to sneak attack damage; your trap DCs are increased; +3% crit chance with traps and grenades (+0.5 multiplier)
Tier 2.5   Smite constructs/living constructs; +3 to elemental resistances, 10% damage reduction vs physical traps
Tier 3     Great Crossbow Proficientcy; your trap DCs are increased; traps and grenades deal addional 15% damage
Capstone:  +2 Int; All light/heavy/great crossbows you wield fire volleys of 3 bolts, instead of 1; Trap DCs increased

WANT! NAO! D:

But seriously that does seem a tad overpowered with the numbers. Still, it'd be a far shot from what we have, now. I like the thought of having an actual engineer buff and having things work off it like traps and such.

[SealedInSong]

Mechanics are specialist for traps & there are so many deadly trap in dungeon already.

How about making hostile traps into friendly one as a mechanic PRE ability?

This sounds like it could be a wonderful high level or capstone ability for the mechanic. +1

[Failedlegend]

This sounds like it could be a wonderful high level or capstone ability for the mechanic. +1

I vote that it should be called "Turning the Tables"

[Artos_Fabril]

Mechanics are specialist for traps & there are so many deadly trap in dungeon already.

How about making hostile traps into friendly one as a mechanic PRE ability?

This is relatively pointless, since traps (once triggered) currently damage monsters that run through them as well as players. Maybe an ability to "hold" a trap which can be "dispelled" or turned off, so that the mechanic can let the party through and then reactivate the trap?

(It would be pointless because making traps "friendly" to the party without changing their functionality would mean they still damage the party, but can only be triggered by monsters. It also does nothing for traps that are already triggered.)

I hate to keep using Artos_Fabril's ideas whenever this comes up but he did make some GREAT suggestions (using the currently proposed new system)

Remember that there was supposed to be a General Tab to go with those, and because of that they would only require 4 points/tier rather than the 5/tier turbine was calling for. In case you were wondering where the wand/scroll mastery, boosts, and SA damage lines went:

General Tab
Enhancement Name                      Cost Progression     Class Level Requirement     Benefit
Faster Sneaking                         1/1/1/1/1            1/4/7/10/13                 10% faster movement while sneaking
Sneak Attack Training                   1/1/1/1/1/1/1        1/4/7/10/13/16/19           +2 Sneak attack Damage per level
Sneak Attack Accuracy                   1/1/1/1              2/5/9/14                    +1 to-hit to sneak attacks per level
Subtlety                                2/2                  3/9                         Your attacks produce 15% less threat per tier
Device Mastery                          2/2/2/2              1/6/11/16                   +1 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and UMD per level
Stealth                                 1/1/1/1              1/6/11/16                   +1 to Hide and Move Silently per tier
Haste boost                             1/1/1/1/1            1/5/9/13/17                 10% haste boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
Skill Boost                             1/1/1/1              1/4/7/10                    +2 skill boost first tier, +1 each additional tier
Damage Boost                            1/1/1/1/1            1/5/9/13/17                 10% damage boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
Rogue Dexterity                         2/2/2/2              1/6/11/16                   +1 Dexterity per tier
Wand and Scroll Mastery                 1/1/1/1/1            2/5/8/11/14                 +15% increase to effectiveness of wands/scrolls/other items that cast spells

The General Tab contains no tier unlocks or benefits, and is class-level gated as noted. The general tab is automatically available with 1 rogue level , Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue, or the rogue active past life feat, Past Life: Sneak of Shadows.
Half Elf Diletante: Rogue would count as 1 level of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. Dilettante enhancements would increase this level by 1 each. Past Life: Sneak of Shadows would count as 2 levels of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. A Half-Elf with Rogue Dilettante, all dilettante enhancements and Sneak of Shadows would count as a level 5 rogue for the purpose of general enhancements, but would not be eligible for any of the PrE trees. These "virtual levels" are added to rogue levels for general enhancements, but not for PrEs.

[Failedlegend]

thanks for the clarification Artos

[Melt-emi]

To help mechanics get better i'd give them a chance (based on level of PrE) to disable traps/open lock without actually burning one of the tools (something like sturdy arrows, sturdy tools) and i'd lower the time needed to disable a trap (still based on tier of PrE) compared to assassins and acrobats.

I know it's maybe not enough yet, but those suggestion would help making them more efficient to begin with. Probably i'd add bonus to UMD score too (like + per each tier of PrE).

[Artos_Fabril]

To help mechanics get better i'd give them a chance (based on level of PrE) to disable traps/open lock without actually burning one of the tools (something like sturdy arrows, sturdy tools) and i'd lower the time needed to disable a trap (still based on tier of PrE) compared to assassins and acrobats.

I know it's maybe not enough yet, but those suggestion would help making them more efficient to begin with. Probably i'd add bonus to UMD score too (like + per each tier of PrE).

Making mechanics better at traps is pretty useless, since any rogue, arti,or rogue/arti splash that cares to try can get all traps, tools are not a big deal by the time you hit a level where you care, and lowering the time, although nice, is a pretty minor benefit.

What mechanics need is something to differentiate them from Artificers and Assassins, which are their two primary competitors for spots in a group.

The trap save DC might mean something if they added traps for spells beyond 2nd level. Here's 4 that would be worth making and worth increasing the DC on:

Mass Hold Monster Trap
Trap the Soul Trap
Phantasmal Killer Trap (the animation even looks like a trap!)
Implosion trap

Since scrolls for level 8 and 9 spells are already drop-only, it's not likely someone will be able to trap their way through a quest. But if they could, good on them! PK scrolls are available, but it's already got a double save, so unless design is really done poorly, it wouldn't be a problem.

[Syllph]

To help mechanics get better i'd give them a chance (based on level of PrE) to disable traps/open lock without actually burning one of the tools (something like sturdy arrows, sturdy tools) and i'd lower the time needed to disable a trap (still based on tier of PrE) compared to assassins and acrobats.

I know it's maybe not enough yet, but those suggestion would help making them more efficient to begin with. Probably i'd add bonus to UMD score too (like + per each tier of PrE).

I'll second Artos_Fabril, to make mechanics better traps do not seem like the way to go. 90% of the traps in DDO are simply ignored anyway, even on Elite and Epic. There are a handful of quests where a dedicated evasion-style trapper makes life easy, but to make this class better still at traps would require the devs to revamp traps completely (which they really should do anyway, making them static means players like me can simply run/jump past them without a trapper ever needed from 1-25. Back in May of 2011, I'd suggested making traps truly dangerous and it was met with mixed reactions, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=317024)

[Failedlegend]

A couple other ones that would be fun (not necessarily useful or well-named you guys can decide that)

Snare (Entangle as Druid)
Smoke Bomb (Fog Cloud except enemies only)
Shrapnel Grenade (As Splinterbolt cept AOE)
Rigged Slingshot (triggering this causes the mobs to get flung backwards(
Bee's Nest (As Enveloping Swarm)

[vengfarga]

Played my Mech since forever ... back when Rpters had not even had their 1st 'fix' - he's a flavour char and our guild leader. Built as pure mech - maxxed trap-monkey skills at the expense of effectiveness elsewhere.
But if I could have anything for mech III - it would be 'endless fusilade'! No extra coding needed - it's there already! Unfair that mechs wait till tier 3 for sth artis get at tier 1? Nope! How many artis have improved precise shot and a dozen or more sneak attack dice?
The artis can stay the crafting/engineering experts and the mechs become ... trappers and sneak attackers ... kinda like the rogue class from d&d ;p
Situationally HUGE dps - which as any mech player knows is a thoroughly mixed blessing - but justifies pugs, etc bringing along the 'true' mech who is the only one who can get all those fiddly optionals.

[StoptheRock]

It would be awesome if mechanics could plant those charges that take forever to set but do huge dmg (like the ones from Blown to bits or Undermine)

[Hobgoblin]

It would be awesome if mechanics could plant those charges that take forever to set but do huge dmg (like the ones from Blown to bits or Undermine)

I like this.

But something i would like is more survivablity from mechanic.

Something like bonus to saves, perfect evasion something like that, a huge bonus to dodge something. either make it a defensive tree or make it really good against constructs.

hob

[voodoogroves]

I like this.

But something i would like is more survivablity from mechanic.

I could see some of this.

Something like bonus to saves, perfect evasion something like that, a huge bonus to dodge something.

I'm not sure an INT/DEX class with improved evasion really has problems w/ reflex saves or evasion ;-)

Maybe PRR or extra fort?

either make it a defensive tree or make it really good against constructs.

hob

I wouldn't mind additional fort bypass on the mechanic tree - that'd be a good, straight DPS add. Assassins get more sneak dice, acrobats get attack speed and mechs could get fort bypass adders. There'd still be other PRE differences (assassinate, poisons, trip / balance, traps, etc.)

[HastyPudding]

I like this.

But something i would like is more survivablity from mechanic.

Something like bonus to saves, perfect evasion something like that, a huge bonus to dodge something. either make it a defensive tree or make it really good against constructs.

hob

The thing is, the mechanic isn't a defensive PrE, it's about utility and ranged dps; the thief acrobat is the 'defensive' rogue. The assassin is obviously for dps and stealth, but the mechanic deals in traps, and the way the game is set up, ANY rogue can do traps very well. The mechanic has nothing to show for this other than doing doing traps effortlessly (which a well-geared assassin can do easily, anyway, and the acrobat needing only slightly more effort due to no intelligence). This is the major flaw in the mechanic PrE; the only defensive option they get is a +4 bonus to saves vs traps, which is miniscule, all things considering.

I could see some of this.

I'm not sure an INT/DEX class with improved evasion really has problems w/ reflex saves or evasion ;-)

Maybe PRR or extra fort?


I wouldn't mind additional fort bypass on the mechanic tree - that'd be a good, straight DPS add. Assassins get more sneak dice, acrobats get attack speed and mechs could get fort bypass adders. There'd still be other PRE differences (assassinate, poisons, trip / balance, traps, etc.)

Like I said above, the mechanic PrE has his toes stepped on by everyone. Assassins and acrobats have more dps, both can do traps 'almost' as good, and as far as ranged dps goes, a well-built AA can deal more damage and an artificer blows them out of the water in this area as well as having massive utility. Mechanic is the red-headed stepchild of DDO.

In my opinion, mechanics should get bonuses vs constructs in the form of attack, damage, and saves, and maybe bypassing whatever damage reduction they have.

[Dagolar]

Another thread in the class section got me thinking about this PrE. It's horribly outdated. Barring the deepwood sniper, no other class has been shat on more than the mechanic by other players. Artificers outclass them in so many ways and I think the new enhancement update that is looming around the corner needs to give them some love.

So, a few 'wishful thinkings' and 'suggestions' concerning the mechanic:

Constructs
There are several PrE's that have a certain focus on certain monsters:
-- Monk's Shintao have bonuses against non-lawful outsiders, aberrations and undead.
-- Paladin's Hunter of the Dead has many bonuses against the undead.
-- Paladin's Knight of the Chalice is good against demons and evil outsiders.
-- Cleric's Silver Flame Exorcists, while not implemented yet, are strong against outsiders.
-- Barbarian's Occult Slayer, also not implemented yet, is strong against enemy spellcasters.

Mechanics need to be like this, as well. I think bonus damage, attack, and/or saves vs constructs makes perfect sense. The Smite Construct ability they have now is useless in a PrE that focuses more on ranged combat, as is the Repair Warforged ability, which is useless past the harbor. These both point towards specializing in constructs.

Trapmaking
Traps and grenades need to be made more useful; right now they're situational, at best, and even with high INT and trap skills, mechanic DC's on traps are still crappy past the mid levels. For the trouble you go through to collect the parts to make deadly traps, they're just not worth using past lvl 10ish. I did recently find that fire grenades can blast open wooden doors and light torches in Inferno of the Damned. There needs to be more utility for such things.

Traps
Mechanics are expert trappers, they need to be able to search/disable traps faster than other PrE's and artificers to show this. Maybe once you get high up in the enhancement tree you could get to a point where you can't get interrupted while searching/disabling/opening locks. Maybe call it 'Working Under Pressure' or something. I would actually find this very useful.

/Signed

But then, I've been pushing for this since Artificers came out...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=347013

the added suggestion of tier 3 mechanic culminating in a Blown to Bits-style bomb-placement ability (which, due to its potency, would be on a 5 minute or so timer).