Rogue: Rough-in of Assassin

[sephiroth1084]

Only if the expanded crit range is applied before improved critical. Those kind of bonuses usually aren't

What abilities do we have that apply after Improved Crit?

I'm fairly certain that the old Crit Rage applied before.

[Gulain]

What abilities do we have that apply after Improved Crit?

I'm fairly certain that the old Crit Rage applied before.

Only one I can think of and sort of the precedent is Kensai 3 pre improved crit threat range. Although I supose early adrenaline ranks also follow the pattern of post imp crit when determining threat range.

[sephiroth1084]

Only one I can think of and sort of the precedent is Kensai 3 pre improved crit threat range. Although I supose early adrenaline ranks also follow the pattern of post imp crit when determining threat range.

Then it may just the case. We'll have to see it in practice I guess.

[Falco_Easts]

Why not make the weapons tier based?
Tier 1 - Daggers
Tier 2 - Kukris
Tier 3 - Short swords
Tier 4 - Rapier

EDIT : I mean the weapons the bonuses apply to, not the bonuses themselves.

[oradafu]

I can see that I'm not the only person a bit disappointed that either Rapiers and/or Short Swords weren't added as weapons for Assassins. Both of those weapons have several decent to great options at practically every level of the game, which isn't true about Daggers or Kukris. The only Kukri of note is the Epic Midnight Greeting and the Dagger has only gotten some decent melee versions with the expansion: so only at the endgame will the weapons for Assassins be decent.

Yes, I know players have been calling for more reasons to use lesser used weapons, but if there are no decent versions of these weapons as you level up, of course there will be resistance against them. One solution is that the Devs need to add a few more weapons at lower levels so there is a reason to use these weapons from Character creation to endgame. (And not just these weapons, but Dwarven Axes and other lesser used weapons that will be getting Racial and Prestige boosts with these future enhancement changes.)

I suspect that the Devs have divided the weapons among the Prestige Classes to give each a boost. For example, it appears that Acrobats and Henshin monks get staves, Ninja Spies get Short Swords, Shintao monks get wraps. I'll assume Dwarves get Dwarven Axes (and possible other Axes), Elves get Scimitars, Halflings get Throwing Weapons also. I'll go a step further and guess that Tempest Rangers get Rapiers, Paladins get Long Swords (and possibly Falchions), Clerics get Maces.

As for the following suggestion, I think it's both right and wrong:

Why not make the weapons tier based?
Tier 1 - Daggers
Tier 2 - Kukris
Tier 3 - Short swords
Tier 4 - Rapier

EDIT : I mean the weapons the bonuses apply to, not the bonuses themselves.

I think Assassins should have the option to pick one of those four weapons, but not given all four weapons as Falco suggests (if I'm understanding the post correctly). I think that upon unlocking the Assassin Autogrants, the player must choose one of those four weapons and all bonuses in the Assassin tree will go to that single weapon. This is similar to the School Specialist in the Magister Destiny. If a player wants a bonus with a different weapon, they can use their Racial tree to unlock it (that is if my hunch above is true).

[delsoboss]

As a dex-based shortsword/rapier user i would like to echo the concerns about the fate of this 2 weapons.

I like what you're doing with daggers (not so much with kukris but whatever, cultural differences i can accept)
but i don't like the fact that shortswords and rapiers are being left in the cold while being iconic rogue weapons as much as daggers/kukris (and no, don't try to come here saying that a ninja is more iconic with a shortsword or that bards are the only ones that use rapiers, give them flutes/mandolins/banjoes/whatever).

I know daggers and kukris are in pretty bad shape right now, but making them vastly superior to other light weapons for dex-based characters is kind of arbitrary (and i personally find it distastefull too).

All this fuss is about the autogrants btw, i'm completely ok with the selectable dagger/kukri enhancements that give combat boni but i don't like the fact that the assassin PRE greatly favors those two weapons among all rogue weaponry.

[delsoboss]

I suspect that the Devs have divided the weapons among the Prestige Classes to give each a boost. For example, it appears that Acrobats and Henshin monks get staves, Ninja Spies get Short Swords, Shintao monks get wraps. I'll assume Dwarves get Dwarven Axes (and possible other Axes), Elves get Scimitars, Halflings get Throwing Weapons also. I'll go a step further and guess that Tempest Rangers get Rapiers, Paladins get Long Swords (and possibly Falchions), Clerics get Maces.

Nothing personal, but this is, for me, unacceptable.

Weapon proficiencies cover the weapon selection part and only in a restricted number of cases (acrobats with quarterstaffs, artificers with repeating crossbows, dwarves with dwarven axes and a few others) going further down that road is both justified and needed.

In this case we aren't even talking about minor boni like total +2 to hit or +4 to damage, what's happening with assassins in the finesseable weapons realm is a coup d'ètat.

I don't even get what's the real problem with a rogue using dex for damage with shortswords, rapiers, light maces or sickles (the overpowered argument just makes me laugh), i mean acrobats get that with quarterstafs on top of a lot of other boni and they don't even need to spend the weapond finesse feat.

[Aashrym]

Nothing personal, but this is, for me, unacceptable.

Weapon proficiencies cover the weapon selection part and only in a restricted number of cases (acrobats with quarterstaffs, artificers with repeating crossbows, dwarves with dwarven axes and a few others) going further down that road is both justified and needed.

In this case we aren't even talking about minor boni like total +2 to hit or +4 to damage, what's happening with assassins in the finesseable weapons realm is a coup d'ètat.

I don't even get what's the real problem with a rogue using dex for damage with shortswords, rapiers, light maces or sickles (the overpowered argument just makes me laugh), i mean acrobats get that with quarterstafs on top of a lot of other boni and they don't even need to spend the weapond finesse feat.

My only concern would be if a person needs to take those enhancements to hit 41 AP for the PrE benefits. If we see enough AP in the tree to qualify for the full PrE without those then they simply become an option available while a person can still go STR based with a different weapon.

I don't think a person should be forced into them that way but as an additional options I don't see an issue. Quite the opposite; I see the potential for more variety if we see some reasonable weapons come out.

[sephiroth1084]

Why not make the weapons tier based?
Tier 1 - Daggers
Tier 2 - Kukris
Tier 3 - Short swords
Tier 4 - Rapier

EDIT : I mean the weapons the bonuses apply to, not the bonuses themselves.

Because that leaves back where we were, more or less, 4 months ago when the developers removed the Shadowdancer's Dex to damage ability (at the behest of myself and others): with weapons that cannot be used for half of your career. Now in this case, it isn't so bad, since you can make a Dex-based character that works from level 1 (or 3) onward, and just can't use your better weapons until later, whereas the SD ability read something like: play a Str-based rogue, or a finesse rogue with crappy damage from 1-23 (or whatever level of SD the Dex damage was supposed to come in) then LR to be fully Dex-based, and never swap destinies.

This isn't quite that bad, but it is similarly cumbersome and overly restrictive.

I'd like to see one of the following:

1. Dex to attack with all finessable weapons, then Dex to damage with all finessable weapons, OR
2. Dex to attack with all finessable weapons, then Dex to damage for all light weapons, OR
3. Remove the Dex to attack, and stick Dex-based rogues back with having to pick up Weapon Finesse, and Dex to damage with all finessable weapons; add a new enhancement to replace the removed Dex to attack.

Eladrin, if you want to emphasize daggers and kukris because you feel that they exemplify the Assassin's flavor more, do what you did at tier 5 with the more specific bonuses for those weapons, but spread it around the PrE. A better idea, I think, would be to include an enhancement line at tier II, and another at tier IV for which you may pick dagger, kukri, shortsword, or rapier, and gain a specific, different bonus for wielding that type of weapon.



Maybe daggers deal more Bleed damage, Kukris deliver poisons better, shortswords puncture more deeply and gain Weakening or Wounding, and rapiers are heavier and therefore are more able to deflect incoming attacks, so they grant some AC or Dodge (they also are the strongest weapon of the bunch, so they get the least beneficial ability when looking at DPS).



Then you have us making decisions among several interesting options, rather than between YES you get the benefits and NO you don't.

[ThePrisoner]

[QUOTE=sephiroth1084;4726153]

Maybe daggers deal more Bleed damage, Kukris deliver poisons better, shortswords puncture more deeply and gain Weakening or Wounding, and rapiers are heavier and therefore are more able to deflect incoming attacks, so they grant some AC or Dodge (they also are the strongest weapon of the bunch, so they get the least beneficial ability when looking at DPS).

QUOTE]

I wouldn't be in favor of a universal nerfing of light weapon abilities in the assassin line to balance out the benefit of more light weapons being supported in the line. If kukris and daggers get bonuses in crit range and multiplier, I'll gladly set my Celestia in the bank and embrace the change. I understand the ideas posted above are just off the top of the head, but I wanted to chime in that I certainly like the look of the kukri and dagger buffs and wouldn't want to see them adjusted downward.

Not saying I'm against more light weapons receiving bonuses in the Assassin line. Just saying that if kukris did better poison stuff instead of a higher crit multiplier, it would be monumentally disappointing for me.

[Aganthor]

I updated my lamannia client... started a new rogue Vet II... When I speak to the trainer, all I see is the old enhancement??? Any reason why?

Thanks!

[sandypaws]

So, out of curiosity:
If rogues did get rapiers (and other light weapons, including wraps) as dex-to-hit-and-damage weaps, how many of you would use a strength build at all? Wouldn't this lock just about every rogue build into a dex/int build? Why would you go str?

1) Going a dex build lets you qualify more easily for the improved SA epic feat, which you may or may not qualify for as a str build.
2) Assassin tree seems to let you grant SA vulnerability to just about anything, so there's not really the issue of punching through DR on things like ellies.
3) As a rogue, your fort-bypass is going to be huge anyhow.
4) Dex gives you higher reflex/AC/balance

...strength would give you...what again? -Maybe- stunning blow. Better improved sunder chances.
...carrying capacity?
...ability of using that old stash of khopeshes you made from five years of playing rogues before.
Awesome jump scores and webs don't keep you stuck as well!
...less chance of uncentering as a monk-rogue. I dunno, but it seems like it'd make strength rogues pretty niche.

[Eladrin]

As a dex-based shortsword/rapier user i would like to echo the concerns about the fate of this 2 weapons.

Don't panic. You're looking at an old rough draft.

[Cyr]

In our current setup (subject to change), it's possible to get tier 5 enhancements at level 11. (40 AP spent in tree.)

So it is 10 per tier?

The rough drafts we are seeing are not listing alot of abilities with costs listed so I assume they are 1 AP. That would lead to the impression that you would run out of useful stuff pretty quickly in most trees unless you decided to use all the flavor option junk that you guys are packing into these trees (lots of active attack junk and use weapon X stuff).

Are the costs on these abilities really mostly 1 AP or is that detail just not included yet and lots of these cost 4 or 6 AP like they do currently?

[Vargouille]

The rough drafts we are seeing are not listing alot of abilities with costs listed so I assume they are 1 AP. That would lead to the impression that you would run out of useful stuff pretty quickly

You aren't expected to spend all 80 AP in one tree.

[Eladrin]

So it is 10 per tier?

The rough drafts we are seeing are not listing alot of abilities with costs listed so I assume they are 1 AP. That would lead to the impression that you would run out of useful stuff pretty quickly in most trees unless you decided to use all the flavor option junk that you guys are packing into these trees (lots of active attack junk and use weapon X stuff).

Are the costs on these abilities really mostly 1 AP or is that detail just not included yet and lots of these cost 4 or 6 AP like they do currently?

Currently class tiers have AP prerequisites-in-tree of 0/5/10/20/40. (Subject to change!)

There are no progressive cost enhancements, it's like the Epic Destiny system. Many of them cost 1 AP per tier, some of them cost 2 AP per tier. (It's theoretically possible that some may end up with cost higher than 2 if they're that strong and we don't want them on a higher tier or in a prereq chain for some reason.)

You aren't expected to spend all 80 AP in one tree.

In fact, usually you can't.

[Dagolar]

In our current setup (subject to change), it's possible to get tier 5 enhancements at level 11. (40 AP spent in tree.)


That's our intent - the dagger/kukri abilities in the tree are intended to open up additional options for dex/int builds rather than completely replace existing weapons. A strength based assassin build, for instance, will likely want to go with rapiers, or even possibly the khopesh. We'll try to be careful with this.


You've also got Venomed Blades (+4.5 per weapon) and the active abilities like Execute.


Tier one of the Acrobat, Ninja, or Deepwood Sniper tree. You'll have 80 action points to spend, and can't put them all into one place.

I'm liking it so far. While Henshin Mystic and Thief-Acrobat still look far too rough, Assassin looks like a promising example of things to come. The benefits seem well coordinated, offering specializations without being railroading, and allowing excellent ease of utility for both pure class and multi-class dabbling.

There's an excellent focus on being accessible to multiple attack types- Assassin doesn't restrict you from running strength, dex, two-handed, one-handed, or ranged, as you please- offering a solid selection of attacks, boosts, buffs, and unique features.

So long as the other enhancement reworks follow the same considerations, I'm quite possibly going to be more giddy about DDO than I've ever been before. ^.^

[Cyr]

Currently tiers have AP prerequisites-in-tree of 0/5/10/20/40.

There are no progressive cost enhancements, it's like the Epic Destiny system. Many of them cost 1 AP per tier, some of them cost 2 AP per tier. (It's theoretically possible that some may end up with cost higher than 2 if they're that strong and we don't want them on a higher tier or in a prereq chain for some reason.)

Check, the last tier and the second tier are the odd ducks.

I wonder how that will play out as to 18/X compared to pure builds. On one hand it certainly makes the top tier stuff less worth while to get for 18/X builds as they would miss out on mulitple autogrants from other trees due to that and be forced into lots of possibly not so great choices in that tree. By the same token if certain trees were strong enough with those top end choices it might swing things all the way to pure builds in those cases.

An interesting design choice. Could work out well depending upon the abilities in those top tiers and if they entirely reinforce the strongest build choices currently or not.

Example, pure rogue is already a no brainer build over 18/X. Now it will add onto this the loss of not only 4d6 sneak attack dice, but also assassinate ability itself...or you could get assassinate and have literally two less tiers of other autgrant pre abilities and still no 4d6 extra sneak damage. Rogues are already overbalanced towards pure with the capstone so it just makes the no brainer choice even more of a no brainer.

Going to glance over these again with that tier req in mind again.

Thanks for the quick answer.

[Scraap]

Don't panic. You're looking at an old rough draft.

Whats the current thinking?

[Cyr]

Nice things about this one so far...

• Auto grants are generally useful for people who attack with weapons (rogues included of course). The two exceptions being the first two, but the big ticket 10/20/30/41 ones are good.
• A moderate amount of stuff that you would want to spend points on in most tiers so multi-class investment into this PrE would not be horribly gimped.
• Less use this or don't bother with this tree stuff then the other two posted helpfully by players.
• You can spend 30 points exactly get your tier 3 assassin vorpal ability and everything else you want from the tree pretty much except assassinate (or the knife ability if you want to super specialize your build I guess...).

Not so nice stuff about this one so far...

• Assassinate at 40 points in tree...wow that is a HUGE investment in the tree which will be very poor payoff for previous builds that only went 12 rogue for it.
• Flavor flavor everywhere. Lots of poison stuff/killer stuff. I do not mind flavor as long as it is worthwhile to get also. At least the flavor stuff in this tree compares well against the other trees I have seen so far.

Overall...

• Very strong choice...much stronger then the rather lame flavor acrobat...just like now
• Halflings are going to be back in contention for builds
• By far the best designed of the three trees I have seen so far
• Clearly everything is very early here so critic will most likely change as things change
• I much prefer the two choice ability score enhancements seen here copied from the destinies, also like that they can be targetted a little more dependant upon the PrE.
• As expected from general descriptions power creep is very large here.