Rogue: Rough-in of Assassin

[TreknaQudane]

This is a copy of the Assassin enhancements on Llama... they are pretty rough in some spots and obviously not finalized.

Granted

Knife in the Darkness (0 AP, Rog 0)
You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris.
Dagger in the Back (5 AP, Rog 3)
You can now use your DEX modifier for damage with Daggers and Kukris
Assassin's Trick (10 AP, Rog 6)
Activate: Target intelligent opponent loses 25% Fort and immunity to Sneak Attack for 12 seconds if the target fails a Will save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier)
Nimbleness (20 AP, Rog 12)
On Sneak Attack: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times.
Lethality (30 AP, Rog 18)
Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike that you make will kill most living targets.
Deadly Shadow (41 AP, Rog 20)
+4 Sneak Attack Dice

Tier 1

Poison Strikes
Select one of three Poisonous attacks.
Toxin Affinity (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Fortitude Saves vs Poisons (and?) to the save DC of your Poison attacks
Shiv (3 Ranks)
Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude penalty against Poisons for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.)
Sneak Attack Training 1
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Stealthy (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Hide and Move Silently

Tier 2

Poison Strikes*
Venomed Blades (3 Ranks)
Poison Stance: On Hit: 1d4/6/8 Poison damage with weapon attacks
Bleed Them Out (3 Ranks)
Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times.
Sneak Attack Training 2 (Requires: Sneak Attack Training 1)
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Damage Boost (3 Ranks)

Tier 3

Poison Strikes*
Critical Accuracy (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 to confirm Critical Hits
Shadow Dagger (3 Ranks)
Throws a dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4d8 unholy damage and blinds the target (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates Blindness)
Sneak Attack Training 3 (Requires: Sneak Attack Training 2)
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Stat Enhancement: DEX or INT

Tier 4

Execute (Requires: Critical Damage)
Melee Assassinate Attack: Deals +3[W] damage. On Sneak Attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Int Mod negates).
Critical Damage (3 Ranks) (Requires: Critical Accuracy)
+1/2/3 Critical Hit damage (before weapon multipliers)
Killer (3 Ranks) (Requires: Critical Damage)
When you kill a target, you gain a 5% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times.
Sneak Attack Training 4 (Requires: Sneak Attack Training 3)
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Stat Enhancement: DEX or INT

Tier 5

Assassinate
Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Mod). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional Sneak Attack damage from this attack.
Improved Assassinate (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 to the save DC's of your Assassinate abilities.
Knife Specialization
+1 Critical Threat Multiplier with Daggers and Kukris. Daggers also gain +1 Critical Threat Range.


*Poison Strikes
Figuring the poisons might be based on the ones we have now I did a search in the localization for the descriptions... near as I can tell these are the ones it refers to.

Heartseeker Poison
Melee Poison Attack: On Damage: -1 Fortitude Save (stacks 5 times), On Critical Hit: 1d6 Constitution damage, On Vorpal Hit: Heartseeker (-5% hit points Fortitude DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates)

Soulshatter Poison
Melee Poison Attack: On Damage: -1 Will Save (stacks 5 times), On Critical Hit: 1d6 Wisdom damage, On Vorpal Hit: Shattermantle (-100 Spell Resistance for 10 seconds Will DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates)

Ice Chill Poison
Melee Poison Attack: On Damage: -1 Reflex Save (stacks 5 times), On Critical Hit: 1d6 Dexterity damage, On Vorpal Hit: Paralysis (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates, 30% chance for an additional save on damage)

[kierg10]

thanks for posting this

glad we rogue assassins arent losing assassinate

[arcattaii]

thanks for posting this

glad we rogue assassins arent losing assassinate

Most abilities' DC = 10 + Half Rogue Level + INT mod, that means you cant kill anything and mobs save all the way, unless you are an ultimate INT build... considering Quivering Palm

[Rauven]

thanks for posting this

glad we rogue assassins arent losing assassinate

Yes and no. Unless it's a typo our assassinate DC is going to drop quite a bit under this system.

Assassinate
Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Int Mod). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional Sneak Attack damage from this attack.
Improved Assassinate (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 to the save DC's of your Assassinate abilities.

Currently assassinate is DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. If only half rogue levels are used our DC's are going to drop by 10. Improved Assassinate won't come close to making up for the loss.

[TreknaQudane]

Yes and no. Unless it's a typo our assassinate DC is going to drop quite a bit under this system.



Currently assassinate is DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. If only half rogue levels are used our DC's are going to drop by 10. Improved Assassinate won't come close to making up for the loss.

It's a typo, which is now fixed.... you kind of get into a rhythm after a while when you keep typing the same thing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

It's a typo, which is now fixed.... you kind of get into a rhythm after a while when you keep typing the same thing.

Sweet, so +3 DC overall, nice!

Edit: +4 DC if you include the +2 int available though is the +2 int being taken out of the capstone for a wash?

[HatsuharuZ]

I would give you +1 rep for this.... but I already did today. lol

Question: Are the requirements for the auto-grants an either/or, or do you need both 41 AP and rogue lvl 20 to get the last auto-grant?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I would give you +1 rep for this.... but I already did today. lol

Question: Are the requirements for the auto-grants an either/or, or do you need both 41 AP and rogue lvl 20 to get the last auto-grant?

It's definitely both. The capstone is for pure classes and you can only have 1 and that is how they're setup.

Some good stuff here.

[Ayseifn]

So no assassinate until level 18 now? Ouch.
5 new melee attacks? Already have way too many clickies to use in combat :/
Daggers and kukris? Meh, add short swords at least.

Not really impressed with the driection assassins have taken over the last few years, multiclassing got knocked on the heard with the assassinate(works in epics)/capstone changes lowering build variety dramatically. Shadow Dancer pushed you towards high dex/int and rapiers, with no real other decent TWF ED you're kinda stuck with it and now this.

[Eladrin]

So no assassinate until level 18 now? Ouch.

In our current setup (subject to change), it's possible to get tier 5 enhancements at level 11. (40 AP spent in tree.)

And with the way this PrE is set up, characters will most likely either skip Weapon Finesse and focus on daggers or kukris, meaning they wouldn't have the strength to use rapiers even if they wanted to, or skip the dagger/kukri benefits and go strength based (possibly with kopeshes instead of rapiers).

That's our intent - the dagger/kukri abilities in the tree are intended to open up additional options for dex/int builds rather than completely replace existing weapons. A strength based assassin build, for instance, will likely want to go with rapiers, or even possibly the khopesh. We'll try to be careful with this.

Also noticed that we're basically trading in +12 damage per hit on sneak attacks from our current Sneak Attack Training IV for +1d6 SA die, Dex to damage with select weapons and some triggered attack abilities with +[W] bonuses. That looks like a net loss to me.

You've also got Venomed Blades (+4.5 per weapon) and the active abilities like Execute.

Where is my fast sneaking?

Tier one of the Acrobat, Ninja, or Deepwood Sniper tree. You'll have 80 action points to spend, and can't put them all into one place.

[Scraap]

That's our intent - the dagger/kukri abilities in the tree are intended to open up additional options for dex/int builds rather than completely replace existing weapons. A strength based assassin build, for instance, will likely want to go with rapiers, or even possibly the khopesh. We'll try to be careful with this.

An admirable goal, but it still throws a feat further under the bus. Hows about daggers and kukris free, rapiers and short-swords with a feat-tax? (edit: and light maces ect. wow It's been so long since they were useful even I forgot those existed)

also:

Just throwing this out there if the plan is for assassin to still be a racial tree then all of the skills that use rogue level for their calculations need to be changed to character level. Either that or racial trees need to grant you levels as if you were X levels of a specific class like how half elf dilettantes currently work.

^this.

[Cyr]

In our current setup (subject to change), it's possible to get tier 5 enhancements at level 11. (40 AP spent in tree.)

So it is 10 per tier?

The rough drafts we are seeing are not listing alot of abilities with costs listed so I assume they are 1 AP. That would lead to the impression that you would run out of useful stuff pretty quickly in most trees unless you decided to use all the flavor option junk that you guys are packing into these trees (lots of active attack junk and use weapon X stuff).

Are the costs on these abilities really mostly 1 AP or is that detail just not included yet and lots of these cost 4 or 6 AP like they do currently?

[Vargouille]

The rough drafts we are seeing are not listing alot of abilities with costs listed so I assume they are 1 AP. That would lead to the impression that you would run out of useful stuff pretty quickly

You aren't expected to spend all 80 AP in one tree.

[Eladrin]

So it is 10 per tier?

The rough drafts we are seeing are not listing alot of abilities with costs listed so I assume they are 1 AP. That would lead to the impression that you would run out of useful stuff pretty quickly in most trees unless you decided to use all the flavor option junk that you guys are packing into these trees (lots of active attack junk and use weapon X stuff).

Are the costs on these abilities really mostly 1 AP or is that detail just not included yet and lots of these cost 4 or 6 AP like they do currently?

Currently class tiers have AP prerequisites-in-tree of 0/5/10/20/40. (Subject to change!)

There are no progressive cost enhancements, it's like the Epic Destiny system. Many of them cost 1 AP per tier, some of them cost 2 AP per tier. (It's theoretically possible that some may end up with cost higher than 2 if they're that strong and we don't want them on a higher tier or in a prereq chain for some reason.)

You aren't expected to spend all 80 AP in one tree.

In fact, usually you can't.

[Cyr]

Currently tiers have AP prerequisites-in-tree of 0/5/10/20/40.

There are no progressive cost enhancements, it's like the Epic Destiny system. Many of them cost 1 AP per tier, some of them cost 2 AP per tier. (It's theoretically possible that some may end up with cost higher than 2 if they're that strong and we don't want them on a higher tier or in a prereq chain for some reason.)

Check, the last tier and the second tier are the odd ducks.

I wonder how that will play out as to 18/X compared to pure builds. On one hand it certainly makes the top tier stuff less worth while to get for 18/X builds as they would miss out on mulitple autogrants from other trees due to that and be forced into lots of possibly not so great choices in that tree. By the same token if certain trees were strong enough with those top end choices it might swing things all the way to pure builds in those cases.

An interesting design choice. Could work out well depending upon the abilities in those top tiers and if they entirely reinforce the strongest build choices currently or not.

Example, pure rogue is already a no brainer build over 18/X. Now it will add onto this the loss of not only 4d6 sneak attack dice, but also assassinate ability itself...or you could get assassinate and have literally two less tiers of other autgrant pre abilities and still no 4d6 extra sneak damage. Rogues are already overbalanced towards pure with the capstone so it just makes the no brainer choice even more of a no brainer.

Going to glance over these again with that tier req in mind again.

Thanks for the quick answer.

[Dagolar]

In our current setup (subject to change), it's possible to get tier 5 enhancements at level 11. (40 AP spent in tree.)


That's our intent - the dagger/kukri abilities in the tree are intended to open up additional options for dex/int builds rather than completely replace existing weapons. A strength based assassin build, for instance, will likely want to go with rapiers, or even possibly the khopesh. We'll try to be careful with this.


You've also got Venomed Blades (+4.5 per weapon) and the active abilities like Execute.


Tier one of the Acrobat, Ninja, or Deepwood Sniper tree. You'll have 80 action points to spend, and can't put them all into one place.

I'm liking it so far. While Henshin Mystic and Thief-Acrobat still look far too rough, Assassin looks like a promising example of things to come. The benefits seem well coordinated, offering specializations without being railroading, and allowing excellent ease of utility for both pure class and multi-class dabbling.

There's an excellent focus on being accessible to multiple attack types- Assassin doesn't restrict you from running strength, dex, two-handed, one-handed, or ranged, as you please- offering a solid selection of attacks, boosts, buffs, and unique features.

So long as the other enhancement reworks follow the same considerations, I'm quite possibly going to be more giddy about DDO than I've ever been before. ^.^

[NancyD]

In our current setup (subject to change), it's possible to get tier 5 enhancements at level 11. (40 AP spent in tree.)


That's our intent - the dagger/kukri abilities in the tree are intended to open up additional options for dex/int builds rather than completely replace existing weapons. A strength based assassin build, for instance, will likely want to go with rapiers, or even possibly the khopesh. We'll try to be careful with this.


You've also got Venomed Blades (+4.5 per weapon) and the active abilities like Execute.


Tier one of the Acrobat, Ninja, or Deepwood Sniper tree. You'll have 80 action points to spend, and can't put them all into one place.

Thanks. That is helpful. Wow, daggers viable. Interesting times. Could be superfun.

[Brennie]

Honestly, my only concerns with this are:

Daggers are rather restrictive. Most most named daggers and kukris are not very good, or not even melee oriented, from 1-20. There are a few exceptions, but it would not be easy to use just daggers/kukris while leveling. At cap, epic midnight greetings and the new dagger from fearun (Which name i forget, but it has some pretty nice stats) could be very awesome though. Dex tohit/damage and proficiency kind of step on some of the "features" of a few named daggers/kukris though... i don't know how much of a concern this is.

Assassinate is being kicked up about 6 levels, if i'm reading this right. So assassinate and vorpal strikes are now happening at the same time, which really backloads this PrE. However, the stuff leading up to it is so good that i think this is an acceptable change.

Of the poisons, the Soulshatter one looks kinda of... well, bad. Waiting until a 20 to even get its best "helps out a friendly caster" ability really makes this ability unreliable, and therefor pretty hit or miss. Mostly miss. Ice Chill looks pretty meh as well, but better than soulshatter. And heartseeker looks pretty fantastic, especially since most of the Assassin's new abilities are fort saves.

Aside from these three concerns, I'd say the new assassin looks absolutely ballin'. More sneak attack, some new cool looking abilities, and some really nice bonuses with daggers and kukris. You can go full dex/int based, and with some half decent daggers or kukris (which there are some in epic levels now) you will be absolutely tearing some stuff up!

I don't see haste boost in here. Seeing as how I'm not entirely sure on how the new system works, woudl it be possible to pick up haste boost without sacrificing any assassin awesomeness?

[sephiroth1084]

Assassinate Was liking the look of some of this until I saw that Assassinate now comes in at least 6 levels later. Honestly, the number one reason I rolled a rogue was to use Assassinate. It's the most fun I have with the class, and pushing it off to the end of heroic levels sucks.

It was hardly overpowering in level 12-17 content, but was fun in some places. There are far more stealth-friendly quests in the 12-17 range than in the 18-25 range in which the Assassinate ability shined.

As others have also noted, sticking this so far back really back-loads the PrE, and we've got a lot of activated attack abilities here. I like having stuff to click, but between these and the Epic Destiny stuff, there's an awful lot of buttons to be mashing.

A better progression, I think, would be for Assassinate to come in as it used to, around level 12, with vorpal sneak attacks coming in at around 18, as it used to, with the improved Assassinate DC enhancements coming between the two, or at 18 also, as later advancement for the ability. I'd much rather see Assassinate replace Nimbleness as an auto-grant and have Nimbleness get included as an enhancement in the tree somewhere.
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Clicky attacks I'd really rather see some of these changed to stances, or 1-2 minute activated buffs.

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No faster sneaking? Also, why don't we have Faster Sneaking in the Assassin tree? I saw it in the Thief-Acrobat tree, which kind of makes sense, since they're all about moving fast and being light on their feat, but T-A has very little to do with stealth, whereas Assassin has a much stronger inclination in that direction. Plus, Acrobats get plenty of other movement speed boosters in one form or another. The Assassin is the PrE with bonuses in Hide and Move Silently and an ability that specifically calls for you to be sneaking--the effect deserves to be here.
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Emphasis on stealth
Adding to that, I'd also really like to see some more emphasis put on sneaking in here. Maybe something on the active attacks that notes that if you make your attack from stealth, you gain +2 to the DC of the ability, or another +1[W] damage? Or there could be a 3-tier enhancement line in the tree somewhere that specifically just grants bonuses to attacking from stealth? I know it isn't super-popular, and necessarily reduces DPS, but it's a strategy that should really be emphasized a little more than just having the Assassinate ability...something leading into that at the very least, so that you have some reason to sneak and make an attack before you get the insta-kill ability, other than that you want SA damage while soloing.

[oradafu]

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No faster sneaking? Also, why don't we have Faster Sneaking in the Assassin tree? I saw it in the Thief-Acrobat tree, which kind of makes sense, since they're all about moving fast and being light on their feat, but T-A has very little to do with stealth, whereas Assassin has a much stronger inclination in that direction. Plus, Acrobats get plenty of other movement speed boosters in one form or another. The Assassin is the PrE with bonuses in Hide and Move Silently and an ability that specifically calls for you to be sneaking--the effect deserves to be here.
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Ninja and Deepwood are both focused on stealth, like the Assassin is, while the Acrobat really isn't, which is my issue. Why isn't the PrE that gets bonuses to Hide and Move Silently getting the ability that improves that action? If it's just to encourage multiclassing, there are better ways to do that.

Sneak Faster is currently needed for Acrobat on live.

As for Sneaking Faster having little to do with Thief Acrobats, I completely disagree. Since a Cat burglar is more of a Thief Acrobat than Assassin or Mechanic, Sneak Faster would be the correct place. For example, an Acrobat would sneak into a place and steal an object and leave without being noticed while avoiding and/or not triggering traps; whereas the Mechanic will play with the traps and the Assassin would slip in and kill the guards or wait for the object to be transported then kill the transporters to get the object.