Is the paladin stigma over?

[Purkilius]

Feat selection is a bit of an art, isn't it? Each paladin can do their own thing, and it usually works out unless you are really clueless. My feat selection doesn't exactly follow other people's choices but it works really well for my playstyle:
1) toughness
1) shield mastery
3) power attack
6) extend
9) impr. shield mastery
12) combat expertise
15) stunning blow
18) empower heal
21) cleave
24) great cleave

Not necessarily in that order since I feat re'specced a couple of times in the leveling process. For me, extend is worthwhile so that my short buffs last longer, empower heal is worthwhile as it makes me fully self-sufficient. I don't worry about improved criticial since I am using Oathbreaker, a keen weapon (though that may change in the future if I get a Caught in the Web weapon, and then I would probably drop stunning blow). The only feats I really see as mandatory for a paladin S&B build are the two shield mastery's; everything else can be tweaked and moved around and you can still have a decent build.

I have always been told that it is better to have maximize than empower heal please correct me if I am wrong!

[psteen1]

I have always been told that it is better to have maximize than empower heal please correct me if I am wrong!

For a paladin, I can't think of anything else that I would want to maximize besides my healing spells, so I might as well take empower heal which has a cheaper SP cost than maximize. My paladin only has 650 spell points at level 25, and half of that is from items- so I don't want to burn through it too fast.

[Irongutz2000]

For a paladin, I can't think of anything else that I would want to maximize besides my healing spells, so I might as well take empower heal which has a cheaper SP cost than maximize. My paladin only has 650 spell points at level 25, and half of that is from items- so I don't want to burn through it too fast.

I run maximize onn mine, though i also have a torc an con opp. Its nice to see 350 csw.

[Bombfish]

Feat selection is a bit of an art, isn't it? Each paladin can do their own thing, and it usually works out unless you are really clueless. My feat selection doesn't exactly follow other people's choices but it works really well for my playstyle:
1) toughness
1) shield mastery
3) power attack
6) extend
9) impr. shield mastery
12) combat expertise
15) stunning blow
18) empower heal
21) cleave
24) great cleave

Not necessarily in that order since I feat re'specced a couple of times in the leveling process. For me, extend is worthwhile so that my short buffs last longer, empower heal is worthwhile as it makes me fully self-sufficient. I don't worry about improved criticial since I am using Oathbreaker, a keen weapon (though that may change in the future if I get a Caught in the Web weapon, and then I would probably drop stunning blow). The only feats I really see as mandatory for a paladin S&B build are the two shield mastery's; everything else can be tweaked and moved around and you can still have a decent build.

This looks a LOT like what I have in mind, save maybe the bit about Stun and CE.

Sort of encouraging to see a S&B that doesn't take the THF line; I'm not a math wiz so I can't say for sure, but really how much D-axe damage does one lose if they avoid it? Or is it more about being able to be modal and change to a decent two-hander if need be.

[psteen1]

This looks a LOT like what I have in mind, save maybe the bit about Stun and CE.

Sort of encouraging to see a S&B that doesn't take the THF line; I'm not a math wiz so I can't say for sure, but really how much D-axe damage does one lose if they avoid it? Or is it more about being able to be modal and change to a decent two-hander if need be.

For me, Oathbreaker (a longsword) was too good and too easy to get to pass-up. Using that, the THF feats are worthless anyway.

I dunno about the math.

From my experience, I do fine- soloing all EH's without a problem while using Oathbreaker as a primary weapon. I hold firmly to the position that a variety of feat selections and paladin builds will work just fine, and ultimately you play what is fun for you.

[jandhaer]

Got 3 pali past lives on my main and had a blast doing it, unfortunately that means im gonna have to make one now for reals so I can play it. Sure they will be behind DPS wise compared to barbs but in my experience not dieing = MOAR dps and in those 3 lives I carried A LOT of stones to the next shrine. think her shining moment was I joined a random pug for a Elite weapons shipment (they were about to enter the last field) at L 17 we all jumped into the last battlefield were 5 stones dropped promptly, raised the 2 healers the party got up and almost immediately died again, talks of reforming start and I was HEY at least let me die first before recalling were I then went on a killing spree for the next 20 min or so to the praises of the party, self healing with no pots used (love those orthons), wish I had gotten a screen shot of that one, good times :-)

[Krelar]

Sort of encouraging to see a S&B that doesn't take the THF line; I'm not a math wiz so I can't say for sure, but really how much D-axe damage does one lose if they avoid it? Or is it more about being able to be modal and change to a decent two-hander if need be.

I have the line on my pally for switching to two-handers. I haven't tried calculating what the difference would be for a d-axe or b-sword but losing the line would lower my two-handed damage by almost 20% so I imagine it would be similar. So you have to decide if what you're taking instead will be worth that.

[psteen1]

Got 3 pali past lives on my main and had a blast doing it, unfortunately that means im gonna have to make one now for reals so I can play it. Sure they will be behind DPS wise compared to barbs but in my experience not dieing = MOAR dps and in those 3 lives I carried A LOT of stones to the next shrine. think her shining moment was I joined a random pug for a Elite weapons shipment (they were about to enter the last field) at L 17 we all jumped into the last battlefield were 5 stones dropped promptly, raised the 2 healers the party got up and almost immediately died again, talks of reforming start and I was HEY at least let me die first before recalling were I then went on a killing spree for the next 20 min or so to the praises of the party, self healing with no pots used (love those orthons), wish I had gotten a screen shot of that one, good times :-)

Defensive abilities sure seems underrated in general. My paladin can stand in the middle of a massive group and barely get hit. My DPS-sweet archmage/shiradi champion needs to self-constantly and I need to watch myself every second-- two bad hits and DING!

That being said, on the hardest of the hardest difficulties, awesome defensive abilities still can't do what they need to do, which is why people who run epic elite know that DPS is still king.

[goodoldxelos]

Paladins just need a greater spell selection now. I did a quick conversion of some from pathfinder, perhaps it will get some more interest in this topic.

Format is
(Pathfinder description)
(Quick conversion, spell range)

Paladin Spells: (wanted to make more uses for turn undeads)

-lvl1-

Challenge Evi: Sickens creature if it refuses to fight you.
Acts like a aura that provides a debuff, self only

Hero's Defiance: Allows the use of lay on hands while falling unconscious.
Expend Lay on hands on incap, self only

Grace: Movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Gives short period in which paladin can tumble through enemies, self only

-lvl2-

Arrow of law: Harm and possibly daze chaotic creatures.
Almost pure conversion. Single shot ability similar to divine sacrifice.
vs chaotic deals +1d8 points of damage per two caster levels
vs chaotic outsider instead takes additional 1d10 points of damage per caster level and is dazed for 1 round on failed will save.
+1d4 vs neutral targets
The arrow has no effect on lawful creatures.

Bestow grace: Subject gains bonus on saving throws equal to Cha modifier.
Expend turn to give short lived saving throw bonus equal to char modifier to ally

Divine Arrow: Imbues a projectile with holy energy.
Expend turn to imbue a ranged damage bonus vs undead for period of time

Fire of Entanglement: Your ability to smite evil also entangles your foe.
Expend smite evil and spellpoints to immobilize target (uses smite timer)

Righteous Vigor: Boosts attack bonus with each hit.
+1 morale bonus to hit with each successive hit (+4 maximum) resets on miss, self only

Shield Other: You take half of subject's damage.
Expend turn to take half of ally's damage for a short period of time, one ally

-lvl3-

Burst of Speed: You gain increased speed, and your movement ignores attacks of opportunity and allows you to move through the space of creatures larger than you are.
Expend turn and gain a short sacred bonus to movement speed and be able to tumble through enemies

Daybreak Arrow: Targeted ammunition exudes radiant energy.
Expend a turn to imbue a light based damage bonus vs undead. Gives a vorpal effect against vampires.

Deadly Juggernaut: Your might increases with every kill you make. (copy and pasted)
With every enemy life you take, you become increasingly dangerous and difficult to stop. During the duration of the spell, you gain a cumulative +1 luck bonus on melee attack rolls, melee weapon damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength-based skill checks as well as DR 2/— each time you reduce a qualifying opponent to 0 or few hit points (maximum +5 bonus and DR 10/—) with a melee attack. A qualifying opponent has a number of Hit Dice equal to or greater than your Hit Dice –4. Self only

Fire of Judgment: Smited creature takes damage when it attacks.
Expend smite evil and spell points, applies a damage over time that affects evil targets and more to evil dragons, undead and outsiders.

-lvl4-

Blaze of Glory: Last stand cures good creatures, hurts evil.
Expend Lay on hands, turn undead and sp, upon falling unconscious releases burst effect that heals allies and hurts enemies.

Bloodsworn Retribution: Cut yourself and swear an oath of retribution on your own blood gaining bonuses based on how much you injure yourself.
If allied has been killed you can decrease max life % to gain a damage/attack bonuses versus that enemy

Fire of Vengeance: Smited creature takes additional damage
Expend smite and sp, applies an effect which causes paladin to deal additional damage vs target on each successive hit for a short period of time.

[Rogann]

I only see S&B pally's these days and rightfully so. Paladin isn't a DPS class. However a S&B tank isn't that useful in most content...

[goodoldxelos]

I only see S&B pally's these days and rightfully so. Paladin isn't a DPS class. However a S&B tank isn't that useful in most content...

Paladin isnt a dps class is based upon what? your opinion?

[phroggiepuddles]

I've got a Paladin up to 21 now (just about to hit 3rd lvl ED) - I've 2HF all the way, mostly with Greatswords or Falchions. I'm solo'ing Epic Casual with no problems and start to get beaten up on Epic Normal. I mostly did Mabar at lvl 20 in the 16-20 area and did fine, but couldn't last long in 20+

So I have been considering whether it's worthwhile moving to S&B style, from this topic it sounds like yes (especially for my playstyle, 2HF is just going to get harder without more advanced epic gear which I'm unlikely to get at level).

Any thoughts on when I should do this? I've got most of the line of Improved/Greater 2HF so I'll need to swap those out... rest should be safe (cleave, power attack, toughness, crit related). I just don't know the EDs very well yet, and don't have access to twists... should I take Exalted Angel to it's fullest or what level should I twist away from that?

[Arlathen]

My Paladin14/Monk6 Exalted Angel Quarterstaff build has been received with love in every Pug he's attempted to join.

I have no idea why

Peace out, Paladin brothers.

Said Paladin is getting LR'd into my new Angel of Death build.

If you want a Paladin to do some decent DPS, give it a read.

[gphysalis]

In addition to the Epic Destinies, motu buffed paladins in another way:

The disease immunity changes, which left paladins with disease immunity, and therefore was a relative buff to paladins.

[AidanRyuko]

I didn't think I would but I'm liking my paladin life quite a bit so far. I'm used to being a DPSer and sacrificed everything to max that (last life I had 26AC at level 20).

So this life I have to work with less damage but more defense, paladin makes it easy to get good AC and saves thanks to the enhancements and Divine Grace feat. Now that AC is usable this gives paladins a lot more potential as well.

Plenty of self heals to go with, but I find that when using the vampiric bloody cleaver I don't need heals at all in quests my level. In fact I tried out an elite monastery of the scorpion at level 16 and managed to complete it in 20 minutes (got lucky on end-puzzle tho) without dieing once. I wouldn't be capable of that on my former lives as I would have to heal up every second or die to a trap.

~aid

[Enoach]

I've got a Paladin up to 21 now (just about to hit 3rd lvl ED) - I've 2HF all the way, mostly with Greatswords or Falchions. I'm solo'ing Epic Casual with no problems and start to get beaten up on Epic Normal. I mostly did Mabar at lvl 20 in the 16-20 area and did fine, but couldn't last long in 20+

So I have been considering whether it's worthwhile moving to S&B style, from this topic it sounds like yes (especially for my playstyle, 2HF is just going to get harder without more advanced epic gear which I'm unlikely to get at level).

Any thoughts on when I should do this? I've got most of the line of Improved/Greater 2HF so I'll need to swap those out... rest should be safe (cleave, power attack, toughness, crit related). I just don't know the EDs very well yet, and don't have access to twists... should I take Exalted Angel to it's fullest or what level should I twist away from that?

The S&B gains are nice, but keep in mind the S&B style is different than 2HF and when spec'd a certain way is similar to 2WF to a lesser extent. DoS in my opinion works best with S&B, but doing this puts you in a Natural Hate Tank mentality - basically you want the aggro. In solo play being a hate tank is irrelevant as you are not competing for hate.

However, if you enjoy the 2HF playstyle I would recommend trying out LD and FotW before you make a decision to switch. Taking the minimum levels to reach those from US, would be 4 US, 3 GMoF, 4 LD, 3 SC and 3 FotW. By this time you will have a minimum of 17 ED levels 5 Fate Points (one more level and it will be 6 Fate Points) to twist with.

Personally on my Paladin I've now completed a minimum of 3 levels on all EDs and am now going back through to bring the 3 level one up to 4. In each ED I tried to figure out how abilities could best work with my S&B Paladin - Some I was successful, some not so successful, but still interesting.

[psteen1]

Paladin isnt a dps class is based upon what? your opinion?

probably compared to barbarians, wizards, monks, or sorcerer. People can make good paladins, but you will never compare to one of those if run by a good player.

[psteen1]

I've got a Paladin up to 21 now (just about to hit 3rd lvl ED) - I've 2HF all the way, mostly with Greatswords or Falchions. I'm solo'ing Epic Casual with no problems and start to get beaten up on Epic Normal. I mostly did Mabar at lvl 20 in the 16-20 area and did fine, but couldn't last long in 20+

So I have been considering whether it's worthwhile moving to S&B style, from this topic it sounds like yes (especially for my playstyle, 2HF is just going to get harder without more advanced epic gear which I'm unlikely to get at level).

Any thoughts on when I should do this? I've got most of the line of Improved/Greater 2HF so I'll need to swap those out... rest should be safe (cleave, power attack, toughness, crit related). I just don't know the EDs very well yet, and don't have access to twists... should I take Exalted Angel to it's fullest or what level should I twist away from that?

personally I think you should leave exalted angel immediately and take unyielding sentinel.

[Arlathen]

probably compared to barbarians, wizards, monks, or sorcerer. People can make good paladins, but you will never compare to one of those if run by a good player.

Interesting, and my purely anecdotal, subjective opinion of this says:

Wizards & Sorceres: Fair enough, these are king DPS. Always will be. Turbine loves Arcanes.
Barbarian in FotW ED: Ok, yep, **** good benchmark for 'top' Melee DPs.
Monk in GMoF ED: Oooh, now were getting a little competitive....

To get Paladins giving out decent DPS you gotta think outside the box, instead of pidgeon holing yourself into SnB and Unyielding Sentinal.

Give a Half-Elf Pally 20 the Shadowdancer Epic destiny, and your talking good numbers. Give him the right twists (Sense Weakness & Haste Boost), a Pair of Radiance Khopeshes and a Seal of Avithoul and you can create Frankenstein's Paladin Monster.

Compared to my Light Monk (who's an absolute beast and I wouldn't hesitate to take into Epic Elites as a Melee DPS) he's well inside the ballpark DPS wise but is missing the important Stun ability and the Life-stealing from Grave Wrappings that my Light Monk has.

Just my own in-game experience speaking.

[EllisDee37]

I don't worry about improved criticial since I am using Oathbreaker, a keen weapon (though that may change in the future if I get a Caught in the Web weapon, and then I would probably drop stunning blow).

Nice, I like it. Before swapping out stunning blow I'd maybe run some numbers on exactly what your hit points would be without toughness. It may end up being essentially the same ballpark, in which case I'd keep stunning blow and drop toughness. If it's a large % drop, though, then yeah, I guess drop stunning.

I have always been told that it is better to have maximize than empower heal please correct me if I am wrong!

Maximize is now fully in the "diminishing returns" category for paladins. Given some pretty decent healing amp, a cure serious with empower heal will get you 300 hp for 22 sp, while going maximize instead will get you 370 hp for 37 sp. That extra 70 hp is simply not worth 15 more sp.