Dear DDO: Some Illusion Love

[valarx]

I think the Illusion spell school could use some love, especially for Bard builds. Here are a few suggestions on PnP spells that could be moved to DDO.

1. Mirror Image - This would be an awesome damage mitigator for caster classes. Initially, it is a high miss chance that decreases as the caster is missed. It could be implemented as written for PnP. Caster gets X images, which gives them a miss chance of (X/X+1*100)%. Each time they are missed, reduce X by 1. X = 1d4 + 1/3 caster levels (max 8).

2. Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image - I think these could be done in three different flavors.

A. Distraction - The image works exactly like the Noisemaker traps. Creatures in the area are drawn to the image if they fail a Will save.
B. Fascination - The image fascinates creatures in the area, if they fail a will save. (similar to Hypnotic pattern).
C. Aggravation - The image aggravates creatures, causing them to attack it if they fail a Will save. Once 'hit' the image dissipates. Could be used in combat as a minor Intimidate.

3. Disguise Self - Increase or decrease your threat generation. Optionally, provide a bonus to some skill checks (bluff, diplomacy, etc.).

4. Halucinatory Terrain - Creatures passing through the area are crippled or have slowed movement (similar to Entangle or Spike Growth).

5. Mislead - Crates an image of you that intimidates targets and puts invisibility on you. This is a great one to use in situations where you need to get away from several mobs that you have pulled aggro for.

[Tshober]

I agree the ilusion school could use some enhancement in DDO. I suspect some of these were not implemented for reasons of game engine limitations. Since the the game engine has been significantly overhauled recently, perhaps some of them are now more feasible.

[Persiflage]

I think the Illusion spell school could use some love, especially for Bard builds. Here are a few suggestions on PnP spells that could be moved to DDO.

1. Mirror Image - This would be an awesome damage mitigator for caster classes. Initially, it is a high miss chance that decreases as the caster is missed. It could be implemented as written for PnP. Caster gets X images, which gives them a miss chance of (X/X+1*100)%. Each time they are missed, reduce X by 1. X = 1d4 + 1/3 caster levels (max 8).

Useless if implemented as the original spell. The rate at which creatures spam attacks means that this would be a 1-second buff in most mid-to-high-level content. It works in PnP because combat is turn-based, the mob-to-party-member ratio is usually lower, and most casters only find themselves in melee range if something has gone wrong. And if you did it as a temporary miss-chance, it'd just replicate either Blur or Displacement. Potentially useful if implemented as a short-duration miss-chance that stacked with Blur/Displacement (as the original spell does), I suppose.

2. Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image - I think these could be done in three different flavors.

A. Distraction - The image works exactly like the Noisemaker traps. Creatures in the area are drawn to the image if they fail a Will save.
B. Fascination - The image fascinates creatures in the area, if they fail a will save. (similar to Hypnotic pattern).
C. Aggravation - The image aggravates creatures, causing them to attack it if they fail a Will save. Once 'hit' the image dissipates. Could be used in combat as a minor Intimidate.

3. Disguise Self - Increase or decrease your threat generation. Optionally, provide a bonus to some skill checks (bluff, diplomacy, etc.).

4. Halucinatory Terrain - Creatures passing through the area are crippled or have slowed movement (similar to Entangle or Spike Growth).

5. Mislead - Crates an image of you that intimidates targets and puts invisibility on you. This is a great one to use in situations where you need to get away from several mobs that you have pulled aggro for.

I've given this a great deal of thought myself, but I keep coming to the conclusion that any decent illusions would get ranted out of the game by the "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Casters have MOAR WAYS to beat a dungeon! It's so OP! *sob, sob*" crowd. I'd love to see an entire category of spells added that are almost missing from DDO; battlefield control, with Walls of Stone (and the many variants), Hallucinatory Terrain and so on, including but not limited to illusions. I'd love to see Disguise Self camouflage you as the most common monster type in your area so you don't get aggro from anything that fails a Will save. I'd like to see the Disguise skill implemented so there's a non-magical way to achieve the same thing, used in conjunction with Bluff. I'd love to see Charm spells that did something more than put a stupid party-hat on a mob. In short, I'd like to see anything that gave the game more options than hacking and burninating everything between you and the quest goal. Illusionists who could actually cast illusions would be great and I wish you luck, but I don't hold out much hope.

Fingers crossed though, eh?

[valarx]

Useless if implemented as the original spell. The rate at which creatures spam attacks means that this would be a 1-second buff in most mid-to-high-level content. It works in PnP because combat is turn-based, the mob-to-party-member ratio is usually lower, and most casters only find themselves in melee range if something has gone wrong. And if you did it as a temporary miss-chance, it'd just replicate either Blur or Displacement. Potentially useful if implemented as a short-duration miss-chance that stacked with Blur/Displacement (as the original spell does), I suppose.

Several points:

1. Mirror Images provides a much higher miss chance than Blur/Displacement. So it isn't just a replacement for those. And that is one reason why the images HAVE to go away (otherwise it would be too powerful).
2. It stacks with Blur/Displacement. And if the blur/displacement/dodge is calculated BEFORE mirror images, than mirror images could last a very long time.
3. It's not for ALL casters. But many arcane casters (especially elf casters) try to stay out of melee range. That means that they aren't getting spammed with melee attacks. Mirror images becomes a good protection that when you notice someone zoning in on you, it gives you time to Diplo or run away. My Enchanter Elf Wizard would use this spell all the time, as it essentially buys several misses for me to get out of a bad situation.

I've given this a great deal of thought myself, but I keep coming to the conclusion that any decent illusions would get ranted out of the game by the "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Casters have MOAR WAYS to beat a dungeon! It's so OP! *sob, sob*" crowd. I'd love to see an entire category of spells added that are almost missing from DDO; battlefield control, with Walls of Stone (and the many variants), Hallucinatory Terrain and so on, including but not limited to illusions. I'd love to see Disguise Self camouflage you as the most common monster type in your area so you don't get aggro from anything that fails a Will save. I'd like to see the Disguise skill implemented so there's a non-magical way to achieve the same thing, used in conjunction with Bluff. I'd love to see Charm spells that did something more than put a stupid party-hat on a mob. In short, I'd like to see anything that gave the game more options than hacking and burninating everything between you and the quest goal. Illusionists who could actually cast illusions would be great and I wish you luck, but I don't hold out much hope.

Fingers crossed though, eh?

I'm with you. I'd love to see more spells that do something other than Deal X damage of Y type. One of my favorite new spells is Quench as it acts as buff, debuff, and damage (against very specific types) all in the same spell. I really appreciated all the changes they made to several enchants that allowed for debugs to Will saves even if the spell fails to 'take hold'.

[valarx]

I agree the ilusion school could use some enhancement in DDO. I suspect some of these were not implemented for reasons of game engine limitations. Since the the game engine has been significantly overhauled recently, perhaps some of them are now more feasible.

Really it comes down to 'how difficult is it to implement'. For a long time I fear that we've just seen alot of rehashed spells (Scorch is a good example) because it was easy to just change some numbers and reuse old spell code. With the release of the Druid and the rather unique spells released with that class, I feel DDO may have resources to spend of creating unique spells.

[Niv-mizzet]

What about WEIRD!?!?!?!

It'd be nice to have a decent high level illusion spell that makes use of DC's.

[Failedlegend]

Vote for Gnomes get illusion spells

Also /signed I LOVE illusion spells

[pie2655]

Like this?

[Failedlegend]

nnnnnnnmn....Pie is greater than Cake....nnnnnnnnn


^^^^didn't need to hypnotize me to make me say that :P ^^^^^^

[Dagolar]

If we're talking new spells, divines certainly need them most, but there's plenty to be added still for all casters.
If we're talking 'throw in Gnomes and some new illusion spells along with, for a thematic package of bundled fun', I'm all in.

Honestly, arcane spell-wise, all schools other than Evocation, Conjuration, and Enchantment could use some additional love.

[pie2655]

nnnnnnnmn....Pie is greater than Cake....nnnnnnnnn


^^^^didn't need to hypnotize me to make me say that :P ^^^^^^

Into my sig you go!

[bigolbear]

@ the op - excelent suggestions, i too would like to see more illusion spells in ddo - both for bards and wizards/sorcs.


your ideas need a little fleshing out as ddo is quite different from pen and paper - id thus propse alternative mechanics.

1. mirror image: creates images D4 + 1 per 3 caster lvl max 5. Each image has a hit point buffer equal to 10% of the caster hp and grants the caster stacking 20% miss chance - although the images them selves have no misschance. Each image would in essence be a summon in terms of mechanics and would resemble the caster in every way other than having the casters name floating above thier head - so the party can tell. The summons would deal no damage and would not attack - simply be in passive folow mode.

2. minor/major image and audible/visual glamour.
EXCELENT SUGGESTIONS here op.
i agree with your idea completely - thye would become spells used for agro mangement..... assuming the person beleives the illusion.

[valarx]

@ the op - excelent suggestions, i too would like to see more illusion spells in ddo - both for bards and wizards/sorcs.

Bards are fairly illusion/glamour and enchantment focused as far as spells go. So this would definitely help out that class. Some bard love is definitely needed.

[Persiflage]

Several points:

1. Mirror Images provides a much higher miss chance than Blur/Displacement. So it isn't just a replacement for those. And that is one reason why the images HAVE to go away (otherwise it would be too powerful).

I'm not sure you really got my point, to be honest. I know exactly how it works in PnP and it can't work the same way in DDO or it just plain won't work at all for much of the time. You can have a maximum of 8 images, they disappear on being struck, and every apparent version of you (including, of course, you) has an equal chance of being subjected to an attack. The images basically only get your Dex and size modifiers to AC. The miss chance applies to ranged spell attacks.

This isn't feasible as written. Even an ordinary melee mob will often be spamming 3-4 attacks per second, something like Lailat can hit you for 6-12 attacks per second (and her tail attack hits everyone in an area), and there are plenty of times when you're being bombarded by rains of arrows for goodness-knows-how-many attacks per second. It would be a very powerful buff indeed in some circumstances: being attacked by a single, slow-attacking mob without True Seeing or Tremorsense, for instance... although even then you wouldn't necessarily gain a benefit if the mob can deliver glancing blows. A giant or troll with a big club could wipe out all your images with a swipe, because as the combat mechanics stand, it seems that everything in a small area is getting hit with at least a glancing blow, including your images. Now, I can't say I'm exactly sure how that works at the moment, but I do know that more than one toon can take damage from a single swing of a club in Gianthold, not to mention creatures like that crazy troll in Eyes of Stone. In other circumstances it'd be nigh-worthless because your images would last a few seconds at most, even counting Blur and Displacement, because of sheer rate of attack.

To level it out, it'd be better if it was a short-duration buff with a cooldown, which gave you a stacking miss-chance (and a static visual effect; I hate to imagine what'd happen if the game engine actually tried to replicate a toon 8 times) which ticked down evenly as the spell duration ran out. That implementation would impose a lower calculation burden on the server, too.

Finally, the game would have to resolve what happened when a damaging attack that wasn't actually aimed at you went through a space occupied by an image. At the moment, there's a "realistic" implementation whereby you can accidentally hop and skip your merry way into an arrow or ray that wasn't intended for you. I can imagine that introducing all sorts of problems for the server, calculating collisions with an additional 8 player presences. Heck, the impact was big enough with cosmetic pets and they don't even interact with anything!

2. It stacks with Blur/Displacement. And if the blur/displacement/dodge is calculated BEFORE mirror images, than mirror images could last a very long time.

It stacks, but only for a given value of "stacks". Any intelligent opponent is never taking more than a 50% miss-chance in PnP because they can just close their eyes.

3. It's not for ALL casters.

It is if it goes on a scroll. In fact, at that point, it's for everyone with a halfway-decent UMD score; it's only a 2nd-level spell, after all. I suspect that if it were introduced it'd have a similarly miserable duration to Displacement, just to prevent that happening. Bards, Wizards and Sorcerors would all get it, and if Cleric domains were introduced, they'd probably get it too (which would be awesome).

I'm with you. I'd love to see more spells that do something other than Deal X damage of Y type. One of my favorite new spells is Quench as it acts as buff, debuff, and damage (against very specific types) all in the same spell. I really appreciated all the changes they made to several enchants that allowed for debugs to Will saves even if the spell fails to 'take hold'.

Quench was a nice way of making a very limited spell useful, although I'm really talking about spells that aren't straight debuffs or damage at all, instead of rolling several of those effects into a single spell. We're on the same page anyhow; the game could seriously use a dose of creativity in "the art of fighting without fighting". I'm very much in the Bigger Numbers =/= MOAR FUN camp, and the constant focus on DPS and nothing else is tiresome. I'd love to see magic introduced which, if I were clever, skilled and inventive, would allow me to win without having to kill everything... although they'd have to change half the quest objectives in the game :/

[valarx]

I'm not sure you really got my point, to be honest. I know exactly how it works in PnP and it can't work the same way in DDO or it just plain won't work at all for much of the time. You can have a maximum of 8 images, they disappear on being struck, and every apparent version of you (including, of course, you) has an equal chance of being subjected to an attack. The images basically only get your Dex and size modifiers to AC. The miss chance applies to ranged spell attacks.

This isn't feasible as written. Even an ordinary melee mob will often be spamming 3-4 attacks per second, something like Lailat can hit you for 6-12 attacks per second (and her tail attack hits everyone in an area), and there are plenty of times when you're being bombarded by rains of arrows for goodness-knows-how-many attacks per second. It would be a very powerful buff indeed in some circumstances: being attacked by a single, slow-attacking mob without True Seeing or Tremorsense, for instance... although even then you wouldn't necessarily gain a benefit if the mob can deliver glancing blows. A giant or troll with a big club could wipe out all your images with a swipe, because as the combat mechanics stand, it seems that everything in a small area is getting hit with at least a glancing blow, including your images. Now, I can't say I'm exactly sure how that works at the moment, but I do know that more than one toon can take damage from a single swing of a club in Gianthold, not to mention creatures like that crazy troll in Eyes of Stone. In other circumstances it'd be nigh-worthless because your images would last a few seconds at most, even counting Blur and Displacement, because of sheer rate of attack.

To level it out, it'd be better if it was a short-duration buff with a cooldown, which gave you a stacking miss-chance (and a static visual effect; I hate to imagine what'd happen if the game engine actually tried to replicate a toon 8 times) which ticked down evenly as the spell duration ran out. That implementation would impose a lower calculation burden on the server, too.

Finally, the game would have to resolve what happened when a damaging attack that wasn't actually aimed at you went through a space occupied by an image. At the moment, there's a "realistic" implementation whereby you can accidentally hop and skip your merry way into an arrow or ray that wasn't intended for you. I can imagine that introducing all sorts of problems for the server, calculating collisions with an additional 8 player presences. Heck, the impact was big enough with cosmetic pets and they don't even interact with anything!

I can't argue the rate of attack in DDO versus PnP. My thought was just that the wizard would be able to avoid that in many cases. There are definitely aggro/area of effect/missile issues that should be addressed, but not something that I can hope to take on with this thread. Perhaps the implementation needs to be done differently. It's hard to say without seeing how it is coded and how it works in play. It seems for the same reasons spells like ablative armor and stoneskin would be useless as they go away after a focused attack, but I still find myself using them.

I was thinking static image as well, for the effect visualization with no 'countdown' on images. I shudder to think of the lag introduced based on that. I was also thinking that the game would just ignore attacks on 'images', that only attacks that actually hit the caster would count.

Quench was a nice way of making a very limited spell useful, although I'm really talking about spells that aren't straight debuffs or damage at all, instead of rolling several of those effects into a single spell. We're on the same page anyhow; the game could seriously use a dose of creativity in "the art of fighting without fighting". I'm very much in the Bigger Numbers =/= MOAR FUN camp, and the constant focus on DPS and nothing else is tiresome. I'd love to see magic introduced which, if I were clever, skilled and inventive, would allow me to win without having to kill everything... although they'd have to change half the quest objectives in the game :/

The quest Turning The Tide comes to mind where you actually get bonus experience for NOT killing groups of enemies and instead locking them in. Brings to mind the idea of a stealth bonus where you get a bonus in XP for the number of enemies in a quest you didn't kill (kinda the anti-aggression bonus).

[valarx]

1. mirror image: creates images D4 + 1 per 3 caster lvl max 5. Each image has a hit point buffer equal to 10% of the caster hp and grants the caster stacking 20% miss chance - although the images them selves have no misschance. Each image would in essence be a summon in terms of mechanics and would resemble the caster in every way other than having the casters name floating above thier head - so the party can tell. The summons would deal no damage and would not attack - simply be in passive folow mode.

The idea of having the buff have 'hit points' in the same way that stoneskin, protection from elements, and ablative armor does may work well into the DDO system. I don't want to generate too much extra visual load on the DDO system though. Having a bunch of copies of yourself around could be rather cumbersome on the current system. A static image would be better (just some pale ghostly figures around you). Something generic that could apply to any character. I don't think the DDO engine is up to dynamically generating several copies of your character on the fly.