So just how bad are fleshie sorcerers?

[HastyPudding]

I'm getting ready to TR my 'main' character again, and I feel like going sorcerer. I'll have past lives cleric, wizard, and 2 FVS, and I was thinking of going air savant, although earth does sound fun.

I know what build I'll use; not hard to plan a sorc stat build, honestly, just CHA and CON. My problem is I can't decide upon human or warforged. I mean, I love the concept of self-healing and I really dislike having to heal fleshy sorcerers as a healer. Some are good and totally self-sufficient, but others have no concept that they have UMD and can use scrolls and wands. So self-healing is a plus, and the immunities and HP that warforged have is a definite help.

On the other hand, sorcerers are feat starved, and a human can provide an extra feat and more skill points, not to mention +1 to DC's and a bit more SP because of not having the -2 CHA penalty. I found a lot of great robes, too, (like the spidersilk) and from what I've seen, there are some really nice ones. The expansion has the warwizard docent, but that just doesn't cut it because it has non of the useful things that the robe has (I really think WF get screwed over with so many robes they miss out on; same concept with WF monks). Apart from that, I really don't like the idea of a WF caster; the race just never appealed to me, at all. It just doesn't sound...natural, if that makes sense. That and they're ugly.

So, what is everybody's opinion on fleshie vs WF sorcerers? I've gone back and forth for several days and I just can't decide. Should I go human for the first life to test it out, and if I hate it I can always TR again into a WF sorc?

[Kominalito]

what you need to ask your self is "is this going to really, honestly effect the game so negatively that i'll stop playing".

the answer will probably be no. people make toons for lots of reasons, but i see way too many people squeezing a handful of points out of races just to be uber.

[Dagolar]

As far as sorcs go:
Warforged: Self-healing
Humans: Extra feat,+1 Charisma
Drow: +2 Charisma
Half-Elves: +1 Charisma. Some versatility. With the new enhancements system, when it comes out, perhaps an extra +1 Charisma, as well, since the new system will stack stat enhancements [as per last dev comment on the matter].
Elves: Don't be silly. Elves are all wizards.
Dwarves: Nope.
Halflings: Nah.
Kobolds: Draconic bonuses, possible charisma benefits? Excellent choice! ..but not in the game.

So, you're left with DC/versatility and better gear selection, or self-healing.

Warforged typically come out better with that comparison, but I nevertheless still mostly play fleshie sorcs.
They're still fun, and do just fine in parties with adequate healers (assuming decent HP).

[Memnir]

My Half-Elf Sorc with the FvS dilettante feat is a lot of fun to play, and pretty self sufficient. I've been nothing but happy with the build.

Only problem is having to loot at a Half-Elf.

[rebelxzar]

My Half-Elf Sorc with the FvS dilettante feat is a lot of fun to play, and pretty self sufficient. I've been nothing but happy with the build.

Only problem is having to loot at a Half-Elf.

And looking at warforged is all fun and games?

[Dagolar]

And looking at warforged is all fun and games?

Yes.

[Dagolar]

My Half-Elf Sorc with the FvS dilettante feat is a lot of fun to play, and pretty self sufficient. I've been nothing but happy with the build.

Only problem is having to loot at a Half-Elf.

Yeah, I enjoy my half-elf sorcs as well

[Memnir]

And looking at warforged is all fun and games?

WF are at least supposed to look like subhuman effigies of real people.
Half-Elves just do anyways.

[dredre9987]

With UMD all fleshies sorcs can self heal as well...Just WF has a quickened version.

[wax_on_wax_off]

First time I TR'd to sorcerer it was with a cleric PL and I picked up the active cleric PL feat. This suited me fine as emergency "Oh ****!" healing all the way to level 20 and wands/scrolls/pots were fine for all the out of combat stuff. Can plan it as a flexible slot to swap it out if you don't need it or kept if you do need it at cap.

-2 DCs hurts on a WF Sorc and a reason they just don't interest me. Having reliable CC/instant kills/full damage nukes in elites makes a huge difference and is usually more valuable imo than recons, ymmv.

Finally, I play hard and fast and have never had an issue keeping up with tin can sorcs, I think fleshy has 99% of the zerging potential of WF in 99% of situations.

[HatsuharuZ]

WF may be a bit more survivable, but we all know deep down that humans are the master race. Go with human so that you get the extra feat, skill points, and you can make a female toon and dress her up in lots of pretty dresses.

Also, durability can save your life, but a smart casters knows not getting aggro first and running away really fast are the best survival options when you are only a d4 hp class. Oh, and since you're a sorcerer it's pretty much expected of you to nuke the entire quest to death.... I'm exaggerating here, but it's not far from the truth. Sorcs get only one PrE and it's only good for blowing things up... and that's what people expect. :S

[Faent]

With UMD all fleshies sorcs can self heal as well...Just WF has a quickened version.

This makes it sound like their close. They aren't. The Warforged sorcerer has VASTLY better self-healing available. Both have scrolls. The WF has MULTIPLE spells, which can be Quickened, Maximized and Empowered, etc... There is no comparison between their self-healing abilities. The WF utterly and totally dominates the Human on this score.

Frankly, this alone is a good enough reason to go Warforged.

[MRMechMan]

This makes it sound like their close. They aren't. The Warforged sorcerer has VASTLY better self-healing available. Both have scrolls. The WF has MULTIPLE spells, which can be Quickened, Maximized and Empowered, etc... There is no comparison between their self-healing abilities. The WF utterly and totally dominates the Human on this score.

Frankly, this alone is a good enough reason to go Warforged.

This, basically. Self healing is such a huge part of being an arcane that you might as well go with the quickened ones

Although with high amp and max/emp working on scrolls at the moment, I think heal scrolls may well hit for more than recon

Max recon spell I have seen=~500 non crit
Max heal scroll I have seen=~800 (!) [when on my fvs healing another fvs with nice amp]

Which, admittedly, is overkill. I prefer WF as I find scrolls innately obnoxious. When the **** hits the fan, WF will be more survivable.

Tankability and self healing is what WF bring to the table
Better instakills and CC is what fleshie brings to the table
Nuking is very similar.

I've seen some very good fleshie sorcs, but they are rare.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This makes it sound like their close. They aren't. The Warforged sorcerer has VASTLY better self-healing available. Both have scrolls. The WF has MULTIPLE spells, which can be Quickened, Maximized and Empowered, etc... There is no comparison between their self-healing abilities. The WF utterly and totally dominates the Human on this score.

Frankly, this alone is a good enough reason to go Warforged.

I think this overstates the difference. With active PL:Cleric (which the OP can take at least temporarily), silver flame pots, cure serious pots, cure critical wands and heal scrolls you've got a lot of options available for self healing.

WF is better for leveling no doubt but fleshy is hands down better at cap for the DC advantage in epics and WF aren't that much better at leveling to make me want to give up the at cap advantage of fleshy (WF is certainly the race of choice for a quick TR though).

[Jaid314]

i've run a first life fleshy sorc.

lots of people will tell you that it only works well with WF. these people are clueless.

don't get me wrong, WF self-healing is great. but as a human sorcerer, i found myself very rarely in situations that would kill me. i mean, there was that time when myself and a ranger were the only ones left alive after a nasty lag spike in the shroud part iv... my sorc was not specced for DPS (this was back well before U9 and the spell pass), and we couldn't kill harry fast enough with just the two of us. survived for about 3-4 rounds before throwing in the towel, and was keeping the ranger alive at the same time with heal scrolls. and this was on a drow sorcerer at the time, if i remember right, so not exactly max HP (although to be fair, most of the people screaming about drow having absolutely terrible HP are also clueless; drow *does* have less HP for sure, but not nearly as much as most threads will claim, if they're built the same way).

i imagine if i could have mixed in the occasional cleric PL heal for free quickened maximised empowered heals, the few times where my reliance on scrolls was a problem would... well, would not have been a problem

WF is good. fleshy is just fine. don't let anyone tell you it's impossible or unworkable, because that just isn't true. certainly, WF have a very nice advantage in their easy self-healing. but fleshy sorcerers work great as well.

[goodspeed]

I run flesh. Get the human adapt, the extra feat which he could still use a few more. And umd anything and everything.

It would be nice to be immune to the poison traps on the walls but ah well. Just remember ur not a pm so walls, pillars anything that kills line of sight is your freind. You don't need to be lookn at em for aoe's and stuff to kill em.

But always got a stack of 200 heal scrolls which are nicely amped up, greater regen scrolls, raise dead and the other one. The rest is just knowing where to stand and knowing when to get ur ass outa there.

[Jasparion]

With UMD all fleshies sorcs can self heal as well...Just WF has a quickened version.

I have 95% UMD and my success rate is inversely proportional to the level of danger Im in.

I had 3 fails in a row recently, while running from a big pack and not being attacked. WF Sorc doing a Reconstruct does not have the same worry.

[Lonnbeimnech]

1. all sorcs can self heal
2. Wf don't have immunities like they used to, and recon doesn't remove stat damage
3. playing a fleshy sorc is a different play style than wf sorc, you need to constantly move, where a wf can just stand there and heal through it.

With that said, if you are just passing through for a past life, go wf. Less of a learning curve, less dependent on gear.

[goodspeed]

ya gotta get some umd. 40 should be a norm on a sorc. If you go the step further you can reach I think 46. Just skill points, cha skills, maxed cha, umd item, greater hero. Luck bonus. Though without the +3 umd item and luck items at 20 you should hit 40 easy.

Now if you really wanted to, you could even craft that thing that stacks with cha skills. Forget the name but it isn't even a high lv requirement. Had a crafter whip up a shard for a blank trinket I had. And if you really wanted to rocket it up you could whip a splash in there. Course you kill the capstone so less that.

Haven't got the thing for 25 but i'm guessing you could go higher still if needed. Heck you could even toss in the umd feat in there.

[HastyPudding]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

I think I've decided to make a human sorcerer. The whole warforged thing just doesn't appeal to me. If I don't like it, I still have 2 sorcerer lives to go (which I want, anyway) and I can always pick WF, then. I'll have that nice +8 CHA spidersilk robe waiting for me, too, once I cap.

Of course, if I was on a wizard, I would totally go for WF archmage, just because palemasters are a dime a dozen and I hate being a clone. It's so much easier to get UMD for self healing on a sorcerer.