Power Attack?

[EllisDee37]

Essentially, to-hit appears to be largely meaningless so I'm thinking that makes Power Attack more of a no-brainer than it used to be.

However, hitting on a 2 appears to be a thing of the past, so I suppose it boils down to whether or not Power Attack costs you a single "to hit." As in, fighting normally you hit on a 4, but with PA on you hit on a 5. In such a situation, you'd be better off turning PA off, right? But isn't this essentially the situation for everybody at all times, now?

So I'm thinking PA may actually become worthless. No, worse: counter-productive. Is this the case, do you think? Any math that shows your work would be most welcome.

[Noctus]

Essentially, to-hit appears to be largely meaningless so I'm thinking that makes Power Attack more of a no-brainer than it used to be.

However, hitting on a 2 appears to be a thing of the past, so I suppose it boils down to whether or not Power Attack costs you a single "to hit." As in, fighting normally you hit on a 4, but with PA on you hit on a 5. In such a situation, you'd be better off turning PA off, right? But isn't this essentially the situation for everybody at all times, now?

So I'm thinking PA may actually become worthless. No, worse: counter-productive. Is this the case, do you think? Any math that shows your work would be most welcome.

It depends on many variables.
* Your to-hit
* Enemy AC
* Your average damage with and without PA.
* Opportunity cost of investing a featslot for PA, instead of something other that gives a boost unconditionally.

But as it seems now for almost all builds activating PA will be a net-loss of DPS. And cost you a feat to thus get worse at combat ... Exceptions are ultra-high to-hit chars like Kensais, or ultra-low to-hit chars with very low damage per hit, but those later un-melees have no reason to melee anyway.

[JollySwagMan]

Players will also graze opponents on a roll of 2 or higher on the d20 instead of a 10 or higher – if you character looks like it hit with your weapon, it should do some damage on anything but a roll of a 1.

Power Attack affects grazing blows, so it may actually be more effective versus a high AC mob that one has trouble connecting actual hits with...? Perhaps someone who has played (or indeed worked on ) on the beta could provide their insight onto this.

[BTIGER]

Generally speaking since you have 25% proficiency bonus to hit now, it should be more effective in the sense of hitting more often.

[wax_on_wax_off]

It depends on many variables.
* Your to-hit
* Enemy AC
* Your average damage with and without PA.
* Opportunity cost of investing a featslot for PA, instead of something other that gives a boost unconditionally.

But as it seems now for almost all builds activating PA will be a net-loss of DPS. And cost you a feat to thus get worse at combat ... Exceptions are ultra-high to-hit chars like Kensais, or ultra-low to-hit chars with very low damage per hit, but those later un-melees have no reason to melee anyway.

Awesome! (Spare feat slot for some builds).

However, Power Attack might be good for:

• Qualifying for Cleave and Improved Sunder
• Vs very low AC (oozes) and/or high DR (elementals) mobs
• Possibly 2 handed weapons as +10 damage (which goes to glancing blows too) but only -5 attack

Would love to see some maths and more informed discourse on the topic!

[phalaeo]

I'm kind of confused about this, as my Bard had no problem hitting mobs in both quests and the explorer areas. What are you considering (number-wise) for a "high to-hit" character?

(I am still a bit new to melee, so I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn. All I know is that she hits on the new content, and doesn't seem to miss except on a 1)
EDIT: She was running PA the whole time.

[Noctus]

and doesn't seem to miss except on a 1)
EDIT: She was running PA the whole time.

You most probably saw "Grazing Hits". They dont show as a "Miss" in the direct combat feedback, and so it feels better. But mechanically they are just a miss where you deal some very minor damage anyway as a consolidation price.

In the new update grazing hits potentially happen everytime you roll a 2+ (so yes, the honest display of a miss only happens on a 1), but didnt beat the monsters AC. On live this only happens on a 10+.

[DarkSable]

Possibly 2 handed weapons as +10 damage (which goes to glancing blows too) but only -5 attack

Actually, quite the opposite, from what I've found. (I was in closed beta pretty much the entire time Lamaland was online. :P) I don't have the data for you on this, because I was testing different things, mostly for spellcasters, but here's what I found:

2 Handed Weapons: Typically means a barbarian, usually Horc or WF, so that you can pick up the improved PA feats. The problem with this is that to-hit now means quite a bit now; in a game where -4 attack from a Curse can noticeably lower your hit chances (By about 2 steps on a D20, while before it was either 4 steps or none.), having a -[bigger number] from PA really does sting.

Where I found Power Attack to really, really shine was with pure DEX finesse builds. Yes, TWF has always had a little bit of trouble hitting things, but they also lose out on so much damage from the missing STR that their damage was low enough that having power attack on every swing made up for the dps lost by missing more often. (Because they attack much more quickly, for lower amounts, which makes the damage from PA add more per second, and the misses not cause the loss of 100+ damage on a single swing.)

[wax_on_wax_off]

Actually, quite the opposite, from what I've found. (I was in closed beta pretty much the entire time Lamaland was online. :P) I don't have the data for you on this, because I was testing different things, mostly for spellcasters, but here's what I found:

2 Handed Weapons: Typically means a barbarian, usually Horc or WF, so that you can pick up the improved PA feats. The problem with this is that to-hit now means quite a bit now; in a game where -4 attack from a Curse can noticeably lower your hit chances (By about 2 steps on a D20, while before it was either 4 steps or none.), having a -[bigger number] from PA really does sting.

Where I found Power Attack to really, really shine was with pure DEX finesse builds. Yes, TWF has always had a little bit of trouble hitting things, but they also lose out on so much damage from the missing STR that their damage was low enough that having power attack on every swing made up for the dps lost by missing more often. (Because they attack much more quickly, for lower amounts, which makes the damage from PA add more per second, and the misses not cause the loss of 100+ damage on a single swing.)

This is so wrong it makes my brain hurt.

[destiny4405]

PA is still a no brainer. just buff up your to hit, and you'll still hit mobs on two.

players also graze hit mobs on 2 now if they miss.

[Diyon]

Some people need to look at Legendary Dreadnought.

Momentum Swing and Lay Waste can't be used without PA on, and quite frankly an attack with +5[W], +3 crit range and multiplier every few seconds is a lot of damage. Also they get improved PA as a choice as well. Missing a few times may not be worth 10 damage per hit, but I think it is worth it for the amounts and frequency you can crit with that ability.

[DarkSable]

This is so wrong it makes my brain hurt.

If you've got different experiences, feel free to explain - that's simply what I've found both through my experiences, and talking with other players.

[Ape_Man]

Had no issues at all hitting with PA on in Epic Normal last night and only saw grazes with a bow.

[Emili]

As Runforr said...

Some people need to look at Legendary Dreadnought.

Momentum Swing and Lay Waste can't be used without PA on, and quite frankly an attack with +5[W], +3 crit range and multiplier every few seconds is a lot of damage. Also they get improved PA as a choice as well. Missing a few times may not be worth 10 damage per hit, but I think it is worth it for the amounts and frequency you can crit with that ability.

And it depends on how and when you use it... my Kensei for instance on live runs with a 66 to-hit with pa on... bard songed and buffed quite a bit more, but on the other hand my chanter runs at +58 on live ... PA will be a turn off on her unless in Dreadnought mode and under optimal conditions.
Classes where PA becomes more or less under scrutiny more often are rogue, ranger and paladin...

[Diyon]

Classes where PA becomes more or less under scrutiny more often are rogue, ranger and paladin...

And even then, if they are a dreadnought, that question typically leans towards "PA!" again.

On another note, I think its good that PA is getting knocked off its high chair of "always take on melee." In PnP I rarely ever take this feat unless its needed for something else. I like that here its becoming more dependent on the build and situation rather than a no questions asked you take that feat.

[krogyy]

i think PA will be a trap for most twf builds. precision will be the stance to be in unless you swing a twohander and plan to use the LD abilities linked to cleave.

[destiny4405]

if i understood right the new formulae for to hit

(Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 25%, rounded to nearest 5%

values should look something like this. gonna take edq for example. on live, she has 69 ac, you hit her on 2 with 68 to hit. with beta it looks like this:

(68 + 10.5)/(69 * 2) + 0.25 = 0,82 or 80%

with PA off, it would be:

(73 + 10.5)/(69 * 2) + 0.25 = 0.85 or 85%

to hit her on 2* you'll need:

(83 + 10.5)/(69 * 2) + 0.25 = 0.93 or 95%

so, it everything depends on character's to hit. hopefully, we'll get some better to hit items.

*you don't really get any bonus from d20 dice, as now everything is in percentages.

[Emili]

if i understood right the new formulae for to hit

(Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 25%, rounded to nearest 5%

values should look something like this. gonna take edq for example. on live, she has 69 ac, you hit her on 2 with 68 to hit. with beta it looks like this:

(68 + 10.5)/(69 * 2) + 0.25 = 0,82 or 80%

with PA off, it would be:

(73 + 10.5)/(69 * 2) + 0.25 = 0.85 or 85%

to hit her on 2* you'll need:

(83 + 10.5)/(69 * 2) + 0.25 = 0.93 or 95%

so, it everything depends on character's to hit. hopefully, we'll get some better to hit items.

*you don't really get any bonus from d20 dice, as now everything is in percentages.

Personally I do not want to see many to-hit items in game...I belive BaB should be an immportant consideration, divine should have to use spells to hit, bards should have to sing to hit rogues should have to flank... just to be close what the full BaB classes aspire to... it's suppose to have a merit.

[morticianjohn]

Personally I do not want to see many to-hit items in game...I belive BaB should be an immportant consideration, divine should have to use spells to hit, bards should have to sing to hit rogues should have to flank... just to be close what the full BaB classes aspire to... it's suppose to have a merit.

I think his point is that PA will be near useless for non- fighter/barb unless we get some serious to hit buffage. BaB is always going to be a consideration due to attack speed, however, the fact that Power attack is going to be a net loss in dps for many people on live who are currently utilizing it now to improve their DPS is a bad thing.

[Diyon]

*you don't really get any bonus from d20 dice, as now everything is in percentages.

Yes you do. The values are rounded to 5%, the d20 is your percentage roll. And 1s and 20s still work the same.