Hard to Kill Thread

[sweez]

I got DC42 and yet, afer energy drain finger fails quite often.

Of course it does, unless you have a FvS in group most melee mobs will save a 42 DC quite easily, people just throw around numbers to 'prove' their shaky ideas.

[Malky]

Haha where do you people pull these numbers from, my 2nd life PM (but no wiz PL) gets to 42 necro, 43 yugo potted, that's with Staff of Inner Sight, Litany, +3 int tome. The max (non-completionist) DC that you can get without using cookies/house d pots/store items (because there's maybe 5 people on each server who can sustain usage of those) is 45 for a human PM with a +4 int tome, or a drow (ew) one with a +3 tome (and all that stuff I listed earlier).

That was the max sustainable DC, between epic necro focus and necro magister destiny the max will be above 50 when MotU hits live.

[Ebonta]

If they want to address instakill, they should just: Cap the mobs of Wail/Implosion/Circle of Death to 4 (like chain lightning) and add 20 seconds to their CD.

This way, necro arcanes will still be awesome (taking 4 mobs with 1 wail is still good imho) but not the king.

Right, an AoE that already has a 30 second cooldown for Wizard's need's to go up to 50 seconds. That would make the spell more useless than it is now. Implosion already has a 60 second cooldown and hits like... 5 mobs or something. Circle already has 2 saves and is already capped at 4 kills maximum.

If they really wanted to tone down instakills, then they would probably just have to stop giving away DC's. On Lammania my 3rd life Wizard with a +4 INT Tome and pleanty of gear hits a 49 DC standing. That's completely broken. If I factor in a ship buff for +2 INT, and Yugoloth Potions for +2 INT then I'll be at a 51, and then if I hit Arcane Spellsurge for funzies I'll be at a 56. Yay brokenness.

[sweez]

That was the max sustainable DC, between epic necro focus and necro magister destiny the max will be above 50 when MotU hits live.

I am not talking about the expansion stuff, because I don't *know* how it'll work out exactly DC-wise. I *know* how it works now though, and yet a lot of people that don't seem to *know* are throwing around silly numbers and comments.

That was mostly the point of my post

[Truga]

Haha where do you people pull these numbers from, my 2nd life PM (but no wiz PL) gets to 42 necro, 43 yugo potted, that's with Staff of Inner Sight, Litany, +3 int tome. The max (non-completionist) DC that you can get without using cookies/house d pots/store items (because there's maybe 5 people on each server who can sustain usage of those) is 45 for a human PM with a +4 int tome, or a drow (ew) one with a +3 tome (and all that stuff I listed earlier).

My first life WF PM wiz had 41 ship buffed, yugo potted (I think). I could get that up to 42 if I got a +3 tome and a +2 ship shrine, I think. 43 with a +4 tome and a +7 int item or litany added in. Higher than that and it'd take things I can't even remember right now...

So no, I have no idea where these people are pulling their numbers from. 44 sounds like pretty much the max a first lifer can pull, less if not a drow/human, and also needs extreme luck to pull that +4 int tome if human.

That was the max sustainable DC, between epic necro focus and necro magister destiny the max will be above 50 when MotU hits live.

And the enemy saves will also be significantly higher in the higher level content. Or are we now balancing level 20 content for level 25 characters?

[EllisDee37]

I think it's analogous to fixing the eSoS imbalance by making hard/elite epic mobs immune to slashing damage until <50% health.

Yeah well, web, disco, mass hold, whatever makes the mobs stand there and not do anything, same difference +/- some seconds.

His point was that those have sr checks. Against epic drow it's essentially web and go stand in a corner.

[Ebonta]

I am not talking about the expansion stuff, because I don't *know* how it'll work out exactly DC-wise. I *know* how it works now though, and yet a lot of people that don't seem to *know* are throwing around silly numbers and comments.

That was mostly the point of my post

DC's are inflated in the expansion. If one goes Magister they have access to 6 Enhancements for +1 INT or CHA each. They also added Epic Spell Focus Feats for another +1 DC, and there's an Epic Enhancement that you can take for +1 DC in a chosen school which can be taken 3 three times.

[Malky]

DC's are inflated in the expansion. If one goes Magister they have access to 6 Enhancements for +1 INT or CHA each. They also added Epic Spell Focus Feats for another +1 DC, and there's an Epic Enhancement that you can take for +1 DC in a chosen school which can be taken 3 three times.

+ there's a quarterstaff with +3 necro DC somewhere in the forgotten realms

[Emili]

If by mass hold you actually mean web, then yes. In a lot of the new end-game the main enemies are drow. Drow are... resistant to mass hold.

Drow are even more resistant to necro spells now.

Interesting thing is irresistable seemed to land easily on them ... so they're not sporting the SR of thier CR levels fact Otto's sphere wirks well so they're lower on SR of thier level and lacking will... even the clerics and acolytes.

[Emili]

+ there's a quarterstaff with +3 necro DC somewhere in the forgotten realms

Yes there is saw it last night.

[Truga]

Drow are even more resistant to necro spells now.

Interesting thing is irresistable seemed to land easily on them ... so they're not sporting the SR of thier CR levels fact Otto's sphere wirks well so they're lower on SR of thier level and lacking will... even the clerics and acolytes.

Well that's weird. What's your spell pen at? I haven't really played beta (I don't want to spoil the content for myself), but on live, epic drow are a major pain in the rear because the only things I seem to land consistently are web and firewall.

DC's are inflated in the expansion. If one goes Magister they have access to 6 Enhancements for +1 INT or CHA each. They also added Epic Spell Focus Feats for another +1 DC, and there's an Epic Enhancement that you can take for +1 DC in a chosen school which can be taken 3 three times.

+ there's a quarterstaff with +3 necro DC somewhere in the forgotten realms

And the enemies are going to have higher saves too. Or do you really think they're staying the same? Or are we balancing level 20 content for level 25 characters now?

[Emili]

They will never get this right perhaps its just impossible to balance insta-kills with dps. Unless mobs have a ton of hit points I do not see spellcasters using insta-kills that much because well for one this is a real time game and hence a player will have to constantly determine if they got the mob below 50% hit points on the fly. I suppose they can cast aoes and sprinkle in insta-kills in the aoes but that is an extra spell cast so why not just stay with aoes.

On hard epic levels in FR seemed to me they have about that of our current quasi-epic? Maybe a little more but round there, On elite however they have more.

[Jasparion]

If they want to address instakill, they should just: Cap the mobs of Wail/Implosion/Circle of Death to 4 (like chain lightning) and add 20 seconds to their CD.

This way, necro arcanes will still be awesome (taking 4 mobs with 1 wail is still good imho) but not the king.

Ive wondered this as well. Its as simple a fix as is implemented here as well. Change CD. Cap mobs.

Both have pretty much the same effect, but I dare say with far less rage.

[Airgeadlam]

I'd say closer to 95%. It's a pretty common builds. WF, Human or Drow, start with max int, take necro feats. Extremely common on khyber in fact.

I didn't mean only "100% maxed out gear"

I meant exactly as I said "max dc builds" they didnt have to achieve that max, just that they ar building towards it.

With just average gear (6 int item, +2 tome, crafted greater necro focus item, all easy stuff), a 20 PM would land 80% of insta kills on most epics (pretty much any non-desert content). It would only move from 80 to 95% with those last few pieces of gear. Either way it trivialized epics.

20 Human PM. Maxed INT (18 base + lich + yugo + 3 tome + ship + all level ups + all enhancements + 3 exc). SF: necro? Check. GSF: necro? check. Greater necro focus item? Check. So, could be a bit higher with drow, and a +4 tome. But overall, I think I got all you listed.

Now, please, Shade. Call Turbine and ask them to take a look into my character. Apparently your 100%-certain math does not work for my toon, I don't know why. Maybe is a bug only affecting me!

Epic Small Problem. Farming scrolls. I run to the waterfall, cast a symbol of death, then kite the trash a bit through it. When the Symbol vanishes, web. Then CoD. Then Wail. And yet they are most of the time, stuck in the web, but alive. Turbine, check it! Shade is clear, I should be killing them all at first sight!

Now... My opinion? Forget your PMs. Forget your divines. And your assasins. And almost every build out there. (NOT talking to the uberelitemultiTRpowergamers who think everyone has multiple past lifes and gear and everything and are so delusional they can't even think that they are NOT the standard player). You got the expansion? Suck it and wait. You don't? BUY the druid! Now! What are you waiting for? Buy the druid, is the new toy! All of you, buy the druid and when every single account has the druid, then Turbine will "think it again" and restablish the game. Of course, nerfing the druid in the way. Yes, is a Dooooooooom idea, but... someone has to say it.

[Emili]

Well that's weird. What's your spell pen at? I haven't really played beta (I don't want to spoil the content for myself), but on live, epic drow are a major pain in the rear because the only things I seem to land consistently are web and firewall.





And the enemies are going to have higher saves too. Or do you really think they're staying the same? Or are we balancing level 20 content for level 25 characters now?

I think the quests are all lvl 21 plus... but they deffinately are not the drow in oob in SR.

Ya know what's funnier yet... was my Bard running these. I was soloning underdark quests, mind you she's lvl 25, but would fascinate, dance the mob to cut it down. once a while some got loose from me not paying attention - was late that night ... and I'd toss a disco up surprisingly took. Some run on hard some on elite. Really the only mob fought back in the beat downs were the red nameds.

[justagame]

Well, I'm shelving my divine caster (who I've worked hard to build up semi-respectable DC's on). I could have healed just as well with a first lifer with little to no gear.

And my assassin? Yeah, not in any better shape.

As for those that say "well, just play casual/normal", I am calling BS. You play casual/normal when you're either under-geared, under-level, or simply not skilled or knowledgable enough for hard/elite. Hard/elite shouldn't simply cut off key class abilities. Might as well say "hey, if you wanted to run hard or elite, you shouldn't have rolled up an assassin!" Make the difficulty scale -- simply cutting off specific abilities makes the game less interesting, not more interesting.

Turbine did this before. I stopped playing epics when the only thing that I could do in them was heal (or heal and use a woowoo stick). Then, they changed them and started making it possible, but tough, to use other abilities. It's hard enough when your DC's have trouble keeping up with content with saves designed for the best arcane DC's (which are increasingly ahead of yours).

This is going right back in the wrong direction again.

And what's an assassin to do? Just be a trapmonkey?

Content that consists of beatdowns where you just spam heals, cross your fingers and hope the players can bring down the mobs before you run out of sp/scrolls/potions, is boring. Looks like once again, a message that says "I hope you enjoyed all of your little toy abilities while levelling up, but now it's time to put them away and just use one or two."

Rapidly losing interest.

[PopeJual]

Individual enemies that can't be instakilled in the normal way are good (constructs, undead, etc).
Casters that cast Deathward are good (even though that Deathward effectively can't be dispelled because of inflated caster level).
High Spell Resistance enemies mixed in with generic enemies are good.
Other opportunities to mess with high DC casters are good.

Blanket immunities for every monster in every quest of a certain class are *not* good.

Let's mix it up a little and design quests with a variety of enemies that are challenges to every class instead of just throwing out blanket immunities.

[Emili]

I am not talking about the expansion stuff, because I don't *know* how it'll work out exactly DC-wise. I *know* how it works now though, and yet a lot of people that don't seem to *know* are throwing around silly numbers and comments.

That was mostly the point of my post

You really do not want to know... When runfor's newbie druid was level 22 or 23 I think he told me his necro dc was 37 or 39 without gear for it, leter he would FoD every now and then cause he forgot he had the spell.

I'd say closer to 95%. It's a pretty common builds. WF, Human or Drow, start with max int, take necro feats. Extremely common on khyber in fact.

I didn't mean only "100% maxed out gear"

I meant exactly as I said "max dc builds" they didnt have to achieve that max, just that they ar building towards it.

With just average gear (6 int item, +2 tome, crafted greater necro focus item, all easy stuff), a 20 PM would land 80% of insta kills on most epics (pretty much any non-desert content). It would only move from 80 to 95% with those last few pieces of gear. Either way it trivialized epics.

Oh Guild leveled YAY!

[Truga]

Let's mix it up a little and design quests with a variety of enemies that are challenges to every class instead of just throwing out blanket immunities.

But now they will be challenges to every... Ooooh, I see what you did there!

[Candela90]

Now wizzies are not needed at all - its better to take bard for CC and their songs, and sorc for dps ;p