Feedback: Magister

[Tolero]

Use this thread to provide specific feedback about this Epic Destiny! General Epic Destiny feedback should be keep to the main Epic Destiny thread.

[oberon131313]

I've been playing around with some of the Kindred spirits, and there seems to be quite a gap between the some of the schools. For instance, the transmutation Kindred is an Epic Stone Gargoyle, and while I did not give him a large go of it, he seemed WAY underpowered when compared to the Epic Meteor Swarm from Evocation. The Illusion Epic Dream Render was durable, but his spell point drain is useless against enemy casters as they have an infinite pool of spells, and his melee damage was lackluster at best, and he could not be buffed with deadly weapons to help improve it. Those were the only three I've played with so far, and I'm enjoying the meteor swarm (and the synergy with my Artificer Spells) but I hope that we'll be able to see some more viable summons for the other schools.

[TDN]

just wanted to point out the spell resist sigil is not currently stacking with drow spell resist.

[Dagolar]

To readdress my concerns with this Destiny:

Enchantment, Abjuration, and Transmutation schools are inherently limited as end-game fully specialized school specializations in DDO, as they lack damaging or lethal spells. Enchantment and Transmutation both have their benefits, but Abjuration certainly is the most lacking. As far as endgame goes, all of these three schools are best as secondary schools, and typically have minimal differences in potency as such. Moreover, with those factors in mind, it seems that simply twisting to benefit those abilities would be ideal to make up for any shortcomings in them, thus limiting interest in taking their respective trees.
Will changes to the Magister destiny and new enhancement system help support those weaknesses in those schools? [more on that at the end]

Nullmagic: This is clearly an abjuration-based ability, and ought be limited to that tree of the Destiny. Moreover, thematic elements aside, they're very specialized elements in build decision-making, and, using the conjuration tree as the basis for this next part, the remainder of the non-sigil school-based effects are VERY limited thus far, at least outside of basic numeric bonuses to elements such as school-related DCs/cooldowns.

In fact, looking at Magister: Conjuration, it's clear the school is deeply flaws as stands. It has very few conjuration themes- in fact, at high tiers, it only has one single ability, which very minimally buffs summons. Conjurers have no thematic or build-synergistic desire for Nullmagic abilities, there are no real summoning elements in the tree (especially with the epic summon ability being available to any tree, and even being twistable). Moreover, all the conjuration-based abilities that DO exist in the tree can be twisted.
The sigils, the only conjuration-themed element, are evident as being purely designed as a supporting benefit, and not as a primary focus. Thus, no matter how useful they are, there isn't any reason to build with them in mind- most of all, since you can always twist the sigil(s) you prefer, as you wish. Moreover, since it's likely you'll find just having one sigil type useful enough.

In summation:
The destiny desperately needs some high level conjuration-themed benefits in place of the three Nullmagic abilities, and similar across the other non-abjuration schools.

With proper attention, this can make up the limitations of the three trees I mentioned at the start. Add in some bonuses as per the various pnp sources to the theme [starting with Unearthed Arcana's specialist traits] either in those elements or along the new enhancement system, and it's all solidly coordinated and synergized.

[Gratch]

I said give mages a destiny to make them feel like Elminster.

Apparently someone heard, give arcanes a destiny to summon Eddymunster.

Ug.

[Artagon]

This destiny is frustrating to me on a couple of counts, mostly in regard to the idea of making a non-wizard a Magister.

Each destiny has done a pretty good job being accessible to more than just their primary class. Magister, however, really fails at this criteria. Why does nullmagic strike only proc on offensive spells? If you imagined a melee picking up this ED to be anti-caster (as a dev stated early in the threads) then it only seems logical to have the ability proc on melee as well as offensive magic. This allows your imaginary anti-magic melee to have some abilities to strive for, nullmagic guard works well for melee as is, so it's not a total loss, but if I imagine my melee being able to throw up the null-magic aura off of only nullmagic guard, I can't imagine it would happen very often at all, probably not even every quest.

As it stands, six of the abilities in this ED require spell focus, and it seems rather poor design to prevent people that can't fit in that one feat to be denied that much of the destiny. Why must you have spell focus in order to do the summon or lower saving throws? I understand that it is dependant upon having a specialization as to what you summon or lower, but it prevents melee characters and feat starved casters from being able to take advantage of this ED. Perhaps a generic or random one for non-specialized characters?

This destiny is interesting, but I don't think the sigils are enough justification for anyone to pick up this epic destiny as a primary line, and since most everything else requires spell focus, it's unlikely to draw in anyone but dedicated DC casters, which as others have mentioned really only apply to necromancy or enchantment specced wizards.. meaning these are the only players likely to salivate over the destiny.

I also think this destiny has the potential for being interesting.. especially if the null-magic abilities could also remove "hard to kill"..

[Dagolar]

This destiny is frustrating to me on a couple of counts, mostly in regard to the idea of making a non-wizard a Magister.

Each destiny has done a pretty good job being accessible to more than just their primary class. Magister, however, really fails at this criteria. Why does nullmagic strike only proc on offensive spells? If you imagined a melee picking up this ED to be anti-caster (as a dev stated early in the threads) then it only seems logical to have the ability proc on melee as well as offensive magic. This allows your imaginary anti-magic melee to have some abilities to strive for, nullmagic guard works well for melee as is, so it's not a total loss, but if I imagine my melee being able to throw up the null-magic aura off of only nullmagic guard, I can't imagine it would happen very often at all, probably not even every quest.

True. Occult Slayers would really suit the ability, once they're added.

As it stands, six of the abilities in this ED require spell focus, and it seems rather poor design to prevent people that can't fit in that one feat to be denied that much of the destiny. Why must you have spell focus in order to do the summon or lower saving throws? I understand that it is dependant upon having a specialization as to what you summon or lower, but it prevents melee characters and feat starved casters from being able to take advantage of this ED. Perhaps a generic or random one for non-specialized characters?

A single feat doesn't strike me as being too limiting- though, the removal of song-requirements for many of Fatespinner's abilities, the lack of barbarian rage requirements for FotW, the lack of... well, the general theme so far has been not to rely on heroic basises for limitations on the Destinies. So thematically, your suggestion fits.

This destiny is interesting, but I don't think the sigils are enough justification for anyone to pick up this epic destiny as a primary line, and since most everything else requires spell focus, it's unlikely to draw in anyone but dedicated DC casters, which as others have mentioned really only apply to necromancy or enchantment specced wizards.. meaning these are the only players likely to salivate over the destiny.

Agreed: Necromancy wizards are the only ones I see taking the class.
Conjuration/Evocation combat wizards would take Draconic Incarnation instead, due to the lack of meaningful high tier associated abilities of their school in the Magister Destiny, Enchantment/Transmutation/Abjuration utility wizards would definitely take Draconic Incarnation instead so as to make up for unaddressed limitations of their schools I mentioned earlier, as well as the same lack of associated high tier abilities for all schools but Abjuration, and just twist some buffs to their DCs from Magister.

Magister just isn't very appealing as stands, in terms of thematics or potency.

[Genasi]

In summation:
The destiny desperately needs some high level conjuration-themed benefits in place of the three Nullmagic abilities, and similar across the other non-abjuration schools.

I agree wholeheartedly that some spell schools in DDO are much more lacking than others, but I don't think this destiny should be expected to make up for those limitations the same way adding more spells to the spell lists would. Not only that, but trying to solve game-wide problems with epic-specific advancement is something we want to avoid.

Also, the Nullmagic abilities, although they definitely have things in common with abjuration spells, were designed more to emphasize the Magister's power to unravel spells and magic itself rather than to suggest an abjuration focus per se. They're also meant to lead up to the Epic Moment, which was purposely created as the ultimate thing a caster could do to protect his or her friends from the very force he or she wields. I don't think I agree that Nullmagic needs alternate versions that suit any of the spell schools specifically- but that's not to say that it couldn't use improvement, which brings me to my next point.

Why does nullmagic strike only proc on offensive spells? If you imagined a melee picking up this ED to be anti-caster (as a dev stated early in the threads) then it only seems logical to have the ability proc on melee as well as offensive magic.

This was actually something I considered at one point, and I don't think it's too late to try it. I'll see if I can rework Nullmagic Strike to proc on melee as well as ranged physical attacks in addition to spells.

I understand that it is dependant upon having a specialization as to what you summon or lower, but it prevents melee characters and feat starved casters from being able to take advantage of this ED. Perhaps a generic or random one for non-specialized characters?

That's a thought. I'll look into whether it's feasible to make Call Kindred Being summon something generic if you don't have a spell focus feat. It's a fair point that a great many toys in this tree aren't accessible to anyone but casters.

This destiny is interesting, but I don't think the sigils are enough justification for anyone to pick up this epic destiny as a primary line

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

[LeoLionxxx]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

That seems like a fair buff, somethig melees will come to request after a time.

Something else i'd like to see on this tree is a way to Lower spell resistance on a target (since magisters are adapt at bending magic around them). Just a neat little toy that will make the epic destiny that much more appealing to casters.

[Demsac]

Something else i'd like to see on this tree is a way to Lower spell resistance on a target (since magisters are adapt at bending magic around them). Just a neat little toy that will make the epic destiny that much more appealing to casters.

You can get +6 spell pen...3 to all 3 to CL of one spell school

[HatsuharuZ]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

That seems feasible. The only question is what type of bonuses they are.

On a seperate note, I think that divine casters need a similar tree to this one.

[LiquidShadow]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

this is cool. how about making ac bonus +3 per rank instead? +1 per rank seems too low. PR is ok imo

[Vazok1]

I don't think AC is a good buff to put in, all these epic AC boosts are really starting to add up. Especially if its a buff that can be given to others by a single group member.

[Scraap]

That's a thought. I'll look into whether it's feasible to make Call Kindred Being summon something generic if you don't have a spell focus feat. It's a fair point that a great many toys in this tree aren't accessible to anyone but casters.

Might want to double-check their stats while you're at it. The Succubus spells hardly landed half the time in the forest, let alone a quest. And please either kill off the Liches ward, or make negative energy exceptions.

Haven't checked evo or conjuration personally yet to see if that'd be worthwhile for an arty, cleric or druid.

EDIT: actually, to replicate the capacity (however ill advised due to the grease-spam) that you get in heroic levels, hows about using the ancient iron defenders model from Dreams of Insanity with a few extra perqs?

[Dagolar]

I agree wholeheartedly that some spell schools in DDO are much more lacking than others, but I don't think this destiny should be expected to make up for those limitations the same way adding more spells to the spell lists would. Not only that, but trying to solve game-wide problems with epic-specific advancement is something we want to avoid.

I'm grateful for the response, but it didn't actually address the correct point of my previous post.
While I did include a section involving spell school limitations, I specifically noted that it only applied to Enchantment, Transmutation, and Abjuration schools.

No, I was pointing out that there were no real THEMATIC elements to the respective schools to their individual trees.

Now, I did make the assumption that each tree was intended to be an archmage-esque emphasis and evolution to a particular school type. Your last post gave the impression that it is instead a Destiny emphasized on the anti-magic, and the various school options are just a secondary consideration to give more versatility to that inherent focus.

If that's the case, I have no thematic problems with the class, though my points on its lack of appeal for casters still stand.
Anti-magic elements just AREN'T a major draw point for arcane casters. In the reducing spell resistance sense, sure. But in preventing enemy casting? That's the scope of interest of non-caster combatants.
And the rest of the class, as we've covered, has no real thematic elements to the individual schools- it's based solely on that anti-magic concept.
Again, that's fine, conceptually. But what's the real reason to take the school, instead of just twisting it a bit for the respective DCs and possibly a sigil?

To reiterate: I feel the respective trees would do better if they added more school-specific thematic elements [for example, more emphasis on summoning boosting to the conjuration tree; even if it's just an additional rank to the very limited in power summoning boost already existent in the tree]. Alternatively, emphasize the Magister spell-unraveling component, in a way that appeals to casters.

Again, I'm just not seeing a reason not to go Draconic Incarnation for a conjuration/evocation build, and since all the other builds are thematic in nature, there's no reason to go Magister for anything other than Abjurer for that [and, as we noted, that's one of the schools lacking currently, so there's no current appeal for that at the moment; Likewise again the lack of appeal of the abilities for casters.].

The sum and the whole of it is, the Destiny just feels incredibly narrow and limited: Which is a specific element that was noted as being contrary to overall Destiny intentions.

That's all- I have Draconic Incarnation as an option, I don't really care what happens to Magister..
..though not caring about the Destiny is indicative in itself: Especially as I primarily play those thematic school builds on my arcanes.

As you said: It needs improvement.

[LeoLionxxx]

You can get +6 spell pen...3 to all 3 to CL of one spell school

Yes, but a debuff like that would help out the rest of the party as well.

[Genasi]

And please either kill off the Liches ward, or make negative energy exceptions.

Yeah, I'll get rid of that ward. Sounds like it's causing a lot more trouble than it's worth. I'll have a look at what kind of DCs the Succubus is hitting with too, could be that they're just a bit too low.

Your last post gave the impression that it is instead a Destiny emphasized on the anti-magic, and the various school options are just a secondary consideration to give more versatility to that inherent focus.

I think you misunderstood me: the focus of the Destiny is not just on the anti-magic. The three enhancements (Nullmagic Guard, Strike and Aura) that have to do with anti-magic are only one particular part of the whole, though it's true one of those is also the Epic Moment. Overall the Magister is more defensive than, say, the Draconic Incarnation, but it's not like any one thing, from the Sigils to the Nullmagic perks to the line of enhancements that provide benefits to one of your specialized schools, was meant to be the concept the whole Destiny was built around. They're there to provide choice.

Anti-magic elements just AREN'T a major draw point for arcane casters. In the reducing spell resistance sense, sure. But in preventing enemy casting? That's the scope of interest of non-caster combatants.

I'm not sure it necessarily has to be true that a caster doesn't care about such a debuff- if you're a caster with the ability to silence enemies with any spell, that means any hostile action you inflict on enemy mages or healers has the potential to shut them down (be it a nuke, a hold, a Flesh to Stone, or even a Finger of Death; these Nullmagic effects can proc whether or not the enemy makes its save). And remember also that there's the secondary Nullmagic benefit of stripping the magic protections off of an enemy when it hits, which makes all of your spells a potential Dispel. The situations in which an enemy is buffed by an ally or itself are uncommon, true, but they do happen.

All that said, though, it's possible the Nullmagic condition should have an effect wrapped up in it that helps the caster who inflicts it a bit more directly and consistently. There's been a few mentions in this thread now of a reduction in Spell Resistance: that could be just the thing to make Nullmagic a bit more appealing. Something in the neighborhood of a -2 to -3 penalty, perhaps?

But what's the real reason to take the school, instead of just twisting it a bit for the respective DCs and possibly a sigil?

Sure, you can twist the DC boost or whichever Sigil appeals to you most, but there's also all of the following: a 15% chance per enemy that you hit with a spell of your school to reduce a save by 5-10 points, a 15% reduction in cooldown for spells of your school (which equates to an increase in DPS if you happen to be a conjuration/evocation-focused nuker), and the ability to boost your maximum caster level on spells of your school by 3. That's a lot more than you can possibly twist and, I would say, amounts to a substantial array of upgrades.

[LeLoric]

Genasi,

It's not a huge deal and I don't think this ED needs a whole lot really but all the other innates work quite a bit differently and distinguish themselves quite a bit amongst each tier instead of being the same.

Following their same formatting I would like to see something like the following.

Tier 1 each level of magister gets 40sp and 1 caster level for arcane spells.

Tier 2 Maybe some kind of sla effect.

Tier 3 Some static non clickie effect (we dont need too many clickies)

Tier 4 no cost for metamagics for 15 sec every 3 minutes

Tier 5 Some static non clickie effect

Tier 6 I like as is

Draconic could also use a similar formatting to match up with all the others.

[Genasi]

Genasi,

It's not a huge deal and I don't think this ED needs a whole lot really but all the other innates work quite a bit differently and distinguish themselves quite a bit amongst each tier instead of being the same.

Following their same formatting I would like to see something like the following.

Tier 1 each level of magister gets 40sp and 1 caster level for arcane spells.

Tier 2 Maybe some kind of sla effect.

Tier 3 Some static non clickie effect (we dont need too many clickies)

Tier 4 no cost for metamagics for 15 sec every 3 minutes

Tier 5 Some static non clickie effect

Tier 6 I like as is

Draconic could also use a similar formatting to match up with all the others.

I think you're right about that, yeah. Shadowdancer's innates got a lot more interesting when most of the tiers got something unique to distinguish them. We will see if there's time for Magister/Draconic.

[Dagolar]

I think you misunderstood me: the focus of the Destiny is not just on the anti-magic. The three enhancements (Nullmagic Guard, Strike and Aura) that have to do with anti-magic are only one particular part of the whole, though it's true one of those is also the Epic Moment. Overall the Magister is more defensive than, say, the Draconic Incarnation, but it's not like any one thing, from the Sigils to the Nullmagic perks to the line of enhancements that provide benefits to one of your specialized schools, was meant to be the concept the whole Destiny was built around. They're there to provide choice.

I think we're mostly on the same page. I was trying to differentiate spell-school-emphasis from [magister tree abilities].
I'll note again that Sigils are mostly a "one or the other" thing: While it's possible to get good versatility by taking multiples, there's really only a draw to take a single one. Some innate benefits to each acquisition may help that, or some synergistic benefits to having multiple sigils unlocked may help that.

I'm not sure it necessarily has to be true that a caster doesn't care about such a debuff- if you're a caster with the ability to silence enemies with any spell, that means any hostile action you inflict on enemy mages or healers has the potential to shut them down (be it a nuke, a hold, a Flesh to Stone, or even a Finger of Death; these Nullmagic effects can proc whether or not the enemy makes its save). And remember also that there's the secondary Nullmagic benefit of stripping the magic protections off of an enemy when it hits, which makes all of your spells a potential Dispel. The situations in which an enemy is buffed by an ally or itself are uncommon, true, but they do happen.

I wasn't trying to say casters wouldn't CARE for them; I'm saying they wouldn't BUILD for them. And since the epic moment is based in it.. and as you noted, it's somewhat circumstantial in its benefits.

All that said, though, it's possible the Nullmagic condition should have an effect wrapped up in it that helps the caster who inflicts it a bit more directly and consistently. There's been a few mentions in this thread now of a reduction in Spell Resistance: that could be just the thing to make Nullmagic a bit more appealing. Something in the neighborhood of a -2 to -3 penalty, perhaps?

Yep, that'd help make it feel more arcane-focused. Have the epic moment feel epic, and make it really strike a blow to spell resistance, and you've got a decent enough reason to take it, especially for enchanters. It'd definitely make it feel more like a "this helps my build" effect than a "this helps the party, potentially, maybe" effect, as well.

Sure, you can twist the DC boost or whichever Sigil appeals to you most, but there's also all of the following: a 15% chance per enemy that you hit with a spell of your school to reduce a save by 5-10 points, a 15% reduction in cooldown for spells of your school (which equates to an increase in DPS if you happen to be a conjuration/evocation-focused nuker), and the ability to boost your maximum caster level on spells of your school by 3. That's a lot more than you can possibly twist and, I would say, amounts to a substantial array of upgrades.

Right: But Draconic Incarnation has benefits similar as well, and a more stable set of options outside of those elements.
I'm not saying that Magister isn't handy and useful, I'm saying that it doesn't really give a feeling of "Magister+Draconic twists" being comparable to "Draconic+Magister twists".
Again, as noted, the high level Magister abilities, the spell point decrease aside, are generally nullmagic based, which are currently circumstantial and stylistically limited.

So, yeah. Make those high tiers feel more 'epic', or at least more thematically appealing:

Genasi,

It's not a huge deal and I don't think this ED needs a whole lot really but all the other innates work quite a bit differently and distinguish themselves quite a bit amongst each tier instead of being the same.

I think you're right about that, yeah. Shadowdancer's innates got a lot more interesting when most of the tiers got something unique to distinguish them. We will see if there's time for Magister/Draconic.

This also nails it.

Thanks again for the dedicated response