Feedback: Magister

[Tolero]

Use this thread to provide specific feedback about this Epic Destiny! General Epic Destiny feedback should be keep to the main Epic Destiny thread.

[oberon131313]

I've been playing around with some of the Kindred spirits, and there seems to be quite a gap between the some of the schools. For instance, the transmutation Kindred is an Epic Stone Gargoyle, and while I did not give him a large go of it, he seemed WAY underpowered when compared to the Epic Meteor Swarm from Evocation. The Illusion Epic Dream Render was durable, but his spell point drain is useless against enemy casters as they have an infinite pool of spells, and his melee damage was lackluster at best, and he could not be buffed with deadly weapons to help improve it. Those were the only three I've played with so far, and I'm enjoying the meteor swarm (and the synergy with my Artificer Spells) but I hope that we'll be able to see some more viable summons for the other schools.

[Typographer]

In ten pages, has anyone actually spoken to the original question?

PLEASE TELL ME MORE ABOUT THE OTHER SUMMONS FROM THIS ED.

[TDN]

just wanted to point out the spell resist sigil is not currently stacking with drow spell resist.

[Dagolar]

To readdress my concerns with this Destiny:

Enchantment, Abjuration, and Transmutation schools are inherently limited as end-game fully specialized school specializations in DDO, as they lack damaging or lethal spells. Enchantment and Transmutation both have their benefits, but Abjuration certainly is the most lacking. As far as endgame goes, all of these three schools are best as secondary schools, and typically have minimal differences in potency as such. Moreover, with those factors in mind, it seems that simply twisting to benefit those abilities would be ideal to make up for any shortcomings in them, thus limiting interest in taking their respective trees.
Will changes to the Magister destiny and new enhancement system help support those weaknesses in those schools? [more on that at the end]

Nullmagic: This is clearly an abjuration-based ability, and ought be limited to that tree of the Destiny. Moreover, thematic elements aside, they're very specialized elements in build decision-making, and, using the conjuration tree as the basis for this next part, the remainder of the non-sigil school-based effects are VERY limited thus far, at least outside of basic numeric bonuses to elements such as school-related DCs/cooldowns.

In fact, looking at Magister: Conjuration, it's clear the school is deeply flaws as stands. It has very few conjuration themes- in fact, at high tiers, it only has one single ability, which very minimally buffs summons. Conjurers have no thematic or build-synergistic desire for Nullmagic abilities, there are no real summoning elements in the tree (especially with the epic summon ability being available to any tree, and even being twistable). Moreover, all the conjuration-based abilities that DO exist in the tree can be twisted.
The sigils, the only conjuration-themed element, are evident as being purely designed as a supporting benefit, and not as a primary focus. Thus, no matter how useful they are, there isn't any reason to build with them in mind- most of all, since you can always twist the sigil(s) you prefer, as you wish. Moreover, since it's likely you'll find just having one sigil type useful enough.

In summation:
The destiny desperately needs some high level conjuration-themed benefits in place of the three Nullmagic abilities, and similar across the other non-abjuration schools.

With proper attention, this can make up the limitations of the three trees I mentioned at the start. Add in some bonuses as per the various pnp sources to the theme [starting with Unearthed Arcana's specialist traits] either in those elements or along the new enhancement system, and it's all solidly coordinated and synergized.

[Gratch]

I said give mages a destiny to make them feel like Elminster.

Apparently someone heard, give arcanes a destiny to summon Eddymunster.

Ug.

[Artagon]

This destiny is frustrating to me on a couple of counts, mostly in regard to the idea of making a non-wizard a Magister.

Each destiny has done a pretty good job being accessible to more than just their primary class. Magister, however, really fails at this criteria. Why does nullmagic strike only proc on offensive spells? If you imagined a melee picking up this ED to be anti-caster (as a dev stated early in the threads) then it only seems logical to have the ability proc on melee as well as offensive magic. This allows your imaginary anti-magic melee to have some abilities to strive for, nullmagic guard works well for melee as is, so it's not a total loss, but if I imagine my melee being able to throw up the null-magic aura off of only nullmagic guard, I can't imagine it would happen very often at all, probably not even every quest.

As it stands, six of the abilities in this ED require spell focus, and it seems rather poor design to prevent people that can't fit in that one feat to be denied that much of the destiny. Why must you have spell focus in order to do the summon or lower saving throws? I understand that it is dependant upon having a specialization as to what you summon or lower, but it prevents melee characters and feat starved casters from being able to take advantage of this ED. Perhaps a generic or random one for non-specialized characters?

This destiny is interesting, but I don't think the sigils are enough justification for anyone to pick up this epic destiny as a primary line, and since most everything else requires spell focus, it's unlikely to draw in anyone but dedicated DC casters, which as others have mentioned really only apply to necromancy or enchantment specced wizards.. meaning these are the only players likely to salivate over the destiny.

I also think this destiny has the potential for being interesting.. especially if the null-magic abilities could also remove "hard to kill"..

[Dagolar]

This destiny is frustrating to me on a couple of counts, mostly in regard to the idea of making a non-wizard a Magister.

Each destiny has done a pretty good job being accessible to more than just their primary class. Magister, however, really fails at this criteria. Why does nullmagic strike only proc on offensive spells? If you imagined a melee picking up this ED to be anti-caster (as a dev stated early in the threads) then it only seems logical to have the ability proc on melee as well as offensive magic. This allows your imaginary anti-magic melee to have some abilities to strive for, nullmagic guard works well for melee as is, so it's not a total loss, but if I imagine my melee being able to throw up the null-magic aura off of only nullmagic guard, I can't imagine it would happen very often at all, probably not even every quest.

True. Occult Slayers would really suit the ability, once they're added.

As it stands, six of the abilities in this ED require spell focus, and it seems rather poor design to prevent people that can't fit in that one feat to be denied that much of the destiny. Why must you have spell focus in order to do the summon or lower saving throws? I understand that it is dependant upon having a specialization as to what you summon or lower, but it prevents melee characters and feat starved casters from being able to take advantage of this ED. Perhaps a generic or random one for non-specialized characters?

A single feat doesn't strike me as being too limiting- though, the removal of song-requirements for many of Fatespinner's abilities, the lack of barbarian rage requirements for FotW, the lack of... well, the general theme so far has been not to rely on heroic basises for limitations on the Destinies. So thematically, your suggestion fits.

This destiny is interesting, but I don't think the sigils are enough justification for anyone to pick up this epic destiny as a primary line, and since most everything else requires spell focus, it's unlikely to draw in anyone but dedicated DC casters, which as others have mentioned really only apply to necromancy or enchantment specced wizards.. meaning these are the only players likely to salivate over the destiny.

Agreed: Necromancy wizards are the only ones I see taking the class.
Conjuration/Evocation combat wizards would take Draconic Incarnation instead, due to the lack of meaningful high tier associated abilities of their school in the Magister Destiny, Enchantment/Transmutation/Abjuration utility wizards would definitely take Draconic Incarnation instead so as to make up for unaddressed limitations of their schools I mentioned earlier, as well as the same lack of associated high tier abilities for all schools but Abjuration, and just twist some buffs to their DCs from Magister.

Magister just isn't very appealing as stands, in terms of thematics or potency.

[Genasi]

In summation:
The destiny desperately needs some high level conjuration-themed benefits in place of the three Nullmagic abilities, and similar across the other non-abjuration schools.

I agree wholeheartedly that some spell schools in DDO are much more lacking than others, but I don't think this destiny should be expected to make up for those limitations the same way adding more spells to the spell lists would. Not only that, but trying to solve game-wide problems with epic-specific advancement is something we want to avoid.

Also, the Nullmagic abilities, although they definitely have things in common with abjuration spells, were designed more to emphasize the Magister's power to unravel spells and magic itself rather than to suggest an abjuration focus per se. They're also meant to lead up to the Epic Moment, which was purposely created as the ultimate thing a caster could do to protect his or her friends from the very force he or she wields. I don't think I agree that Nullmagic needs alternate versions that suit any of the spell schools specifically- but that's not to say that it couldn't use improvement, which brings me to my next point.

Why does nullmagic strike only proc on offensive spells? If you imagined a melee picking up this ED to be anti-caster (as a dev stated early in the threads) then it only seems logical to have the ability proc on melee as well as offensive magic.

This was actually something I considered at one point, and I don't think it's too late to try it. I'll see if I can rework Nullmagic Strike to proc on melee as well as ranged physical attacks in addition to spells.

I understand that it is dependant upon having a specialization as to what you summon or lower, but it prevents melee characters and feat starved casters from being able to take advantage of this ED. Perhaps a generic or random one for non-specialized characters?

That's a thought. I'll look into whether it's feasible to make Call Kindred Being summon something generic if you don't have a spell focus feat. It's a fair point that a great many toys in this tree aren't accessible to anyone but casters.

This destiny is interesting, but I don't think the sigils are enough justification for anyone to pick up this epic destiny as a primary line

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

[LeoLionxxx]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

That seems like a fair buff, somethig melees will come to request after a time.

Something else i'd like to see on this tree is a way to Lower spell resistance on a target (since magisters are adapt at bending magic around them). Just a neat little toy that will make the epic destiny that much more appealing to casters.

[Demsac]

Something else i'd like to see on this tree is a way to Lower spell resistance on a target (since magisters are adapt at bending magic around them). Just a neat little toy that will make the epic destiny that much more appealing to casters.

You can get +6 spell pen...3 to all 3 to CL of one spell school

[LeoLionxxx]

You can get +6 spell pen...3 to all 3 to CL of one spell school

Yes, but a debuff like that would help out the rest of the party as well.

[HatsuharuZ]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

That seems feasible. The only question is what type of bonuses they are.

On a seperate note, I think that divine casters need a similar tree to this one.

[LiquidShadow]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

this is cool. how about making ac bonus +3 per rank instead? +1 per rank seems too low. PR is ok imo

[Scraap]

That's a thought. I'll look into whether it's feasible to make Call Kindred Being summon something generic if you don't have a spell focus feat. It's a fair point that a great many toys in this tree aren't accessible to anyone but casters.

Might want to double-check their stats while you're at it. The Succubus spells hardly landed half the time in the forest, let alone a quest. And please either kill off the Liches ward, or make negative energy exceptions.

Haven't checked evo or conjuration personally yet to see if that'd be worthwhile for an arty, cleric or druid.

EDIT: actually, to replicate the capacity (however ill advised due to the grease-spam) that you get in heroic levels, hows about using the ancient iron defenders model from Dreams of Insanity with a few extra perqs?

[Dagolar]

I agree wholeheartedly that some spell schools in DDO are much more lacking than others, but I don't think this destiny should be expected to make up for those limitations the same way adding more spells to the spell lists would. Not only that, but trying to solve game-wide problems with epic-specific advancement is something we want to avoid.

I'm grateful for the response, but it didn't actually address the correct point of my previous post.
While I did include a section involving spell school limitations, I specifically noted that it only applied to Enchantment, Transmutation, and Abjuration schools.

No, I was pointing out that there were no real THEMATIC elements to the respective schools to their individual trees.

Now, I did make the assumption that each tree was intended to be an archmage-esque emphasis and evolution to a particular school type. Your last post gave the impression that it is instead a Destiny emphasized on the anti-magic, and the various school options are just a secondary consideration to give more versatility to that inherent focus.

If that's the case, I have no thematic problems with the class, though my points on its lack of appeal for casters still stand.
Anti-magic elements just AREN'T a major draw point for arcane casters. In the reducing spell resistance sense, sure. But in preventing enemy casting? That's the scope of interest of non-caster combatants.
And the rest of the class, as we've covered, has no real thematic elements to the individual schools- it's based solely on that anti-magic concept.
Again, that's fine, conceptually. But what's the real reason to take the school, instead of just twisting it a bit for the respective DCs and possibly a sigil?

To reiterate: I feel the respective trees would do better if they added more school-specific thematic elements [for example, more emphasis on summoning boosting to the conjuration tree; even if it's just an additional rank to the very limited in power summoning boost already existent in the tree]. Alternatively, emphasize the Magister spell-unraveling component, in a way that appeals to casters.

Again, I'm just not seeing a reason not to go Draconic Incarnation for a conjuration/evocation build, and since all the other builds are thematic in nature, there's no reason to go Magister for anything other than Abjurer for that [and, as we noted, that's one of the schools lacking currently, so there's no current appeal for that at the moment; Likewise again the lack of appeal of the abilities for casters.].

The sum and the whole of it is, the Destiny just feels incredibly narrow and limited: Which is a specific element that was noted as being contrary to overall Destiny intentions.

That's all- I have Draconic Incarnation as an option, I don't really care what happens to Magister..
..though not caring about the Destiny is indicative in itself: Especially as I primarily play those thematic school builds on my arcanes.

As you said: It needs improvement.

[Artagon]

I
Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

I think that you are on the right track by giving us a nice general use sigil.. I do fear that its not powerful enough an ability which has a static position. Devs have been doing a great job of making sure fights are not standing still beat-fests so its important to make sure that the sigil is worth people gathering for... its hard enough already getting people to fight in the aoe damagers.

[Shade]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

I like it.
One of the issues I find Arcanes suffer in long raid fights such as Lord of Blades (through the primary beat down phase) is they dont have much to do if they arent in a key role. Pretty much its
- Cloudkill and haste/rage the mlees.. Fairly basic tasks that require litle attention.
So adding more things they can cast to aid the battle would make them more fun to play in such raids/roles.

Though for me when I tried this ED, the major issue with ALL the sigils were:
- Very slow cast time (pretty common issue with all arcane destiny things it seems, not to bad with quicken at least tho)
- Poor duration for what it is. It's a longterm stationary defensive buff. Other such aoe type effect generally last 80+ seconds (cloudkill for example).
-AOE size is just standard haste size.. Was expecting larger, the graphic displays slightly larger, but the actual gameplay impacting area matches hastes AOE. Would be nice if that could be upd +50% or so.

If you could up these to use a duration based on caster level (6s per CL would be approrapiate) that would be awesome and would make some of them well worth using in certain difficult battles. They would still be very situational, but at least be worthy of there rather long cast times, and moderate sp costs.

Else if scalable duration isnt possible, a fixed 90 seconds would be more appropriate, to match what cloudkill would have at cl25 for duration.

I'll give a more complete report on Magister in the coming days. Overall it seemed fine in terms of power vs draconic, but I have some ideas and bug reports coming for ya.

[qzzxt]

I agree wholeheartedly that some spell schools in DDO are much more lacking than others, but I don't think this destiny should be expected to make up for those limitations the same way adding more spells to the spell lists would. Not only that, but trying to solve game-wide problems with epic-specific advancement is something we want to avoid.

Also, the Nullmagic abilities, although they definitely have things in common with abjuration spells, were designed more to emphasize the Magister's power to unravel spells and magic itself rather than to suggest an abjuration focus per se. They're also meant to lead up to the Epic Moment, which was purposely created as the ultimate thing a caster could do to protect his or her friends from the very force he or she wields. I don't think I agree that Nullmagic needs alternate versions that suit any of the spell schools specifically- but that's not to say that it couldn't use improvement, which brings me to my next point.


This was actually something I considered at one point, and I don't think it's too late to try it. I'll see if I can rework Nullmagic Strike to proc on melee as well as ranged physical attacks in addition to spells.


That's a thought. I'll look into whether it's feasible to make Call Kindred Being summon something generic if you don't have a spell focus feat. It's a fair point that a great many toys in this tree aren't accessible to anyone but casters.


Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

I know this is a little late, but I am new to the forums. Been playing the game for a while and it seems like a "general" version of this tree could be an enhancement to spell resistance. This would emphasize the null-magic aspect of this tree for non-casters. Additionally, a sigil duration increase or a summon like the existing golem could be used as a "generic" summon. And the fact that it occasionally turns on the party could be a result of the player, not having specialized in magic, trying to control magical forces. This would lend itself to a new conjuration summon. maybe something with limited "conjuration" abilities itself like a glass spider with a slow egg laying rate like 1/min or a summoned ooze that splits emphasizing that conjurers have mastered the art of conjuration to the extent that they can control conjuring more than 1 thing at a time while not directly affecting the summon creature infrastructure already in place.

As to the people who tested summons, I understand their low DPS and problems, but their primary purpose is as a spell, not a creature. It has both features of crowd control and damage over time spells kind of like a combination of Otto's Sphere of Dancing and Death Aura. If it can pull agro (great for ranged and caster characters) you essentially get however long it takes to kill your summon worth of you damaging the monster like Otto's Sphere of Dancing but with a variable duration up to 10 minutes. If you pull agro instead (great for melee and defensive character) then you get a damage spell that does 30-40 periodic damage for variable duration up to 10 minutes. Additionally, if you have augment summon and grand summon and 3 previous druid lives you get all stats at +14 which is a huge buff for people interested in casting summons as "pets" or "charmed" monsters. Adding a minimal boost to a spell and not using it as it was intended is just like having a low DC on something like Otto's Sphere of Dancing, standing in it with a low spell power Death Aura, and doing nothing else. It won't do much.

[Inoukchuk]

I know I'm late to the discussion, but as a former PM who TR'd out I have some observations to add.

1) As some have mentioned, the progression in the right 2 trees (stats, which are basically required for Magister and no other tree, and spell schools) are far too expensive and far too narrow.
2) I consider both the summons and the sigils to be entirely wasted and useless. Both individuals and especially groups tend to move constantly and make the already nominal effects of sigils entirely wasted. These would be far better as just group buffs. And pets.... have almost always been underpowered and useless, but especially so in EE content or even higher level EH content. It's not worth the time or SP to summon things generally. Heck, I'm running a druid right now and even with a half decent pet and summons when I lose both I only notice that I don't have to worry about healing anything anymore or maintaining agro. I notice no real loss in power.
3) DC casting has been dead for some time. Some people prefer it that way, cause it's all or nothing and if it works it's deemed too powerful, and if it doesn't it's deemed worthless. As such you need to do 1 of a couple of things: a) make wizards much more useful in this destiny doing non-DC related things (presumably damage and/or buffing, though buffing will not be popular I think) or b) increase DCs, preferably universal so as not to pigeon hole wizards into 1 school. Personally I think either the auto-grants or one of the 2 left lines should be changed to alternate +1 DC to all spells and +1 caster level to all spells. Maybe change the sigils to something more generally useful also, like a series of SLA's (choose a spell of [tier] level and you can now cast that as an SLA for [tier+1] SP and with [tier+1] seconds cooldown). Or optionally... this would be a GREAT place to introduce epic level spells since it seems we won't get them anywhere else. Add a line that grants a (20+tier) level spell at each tier.
4) The real comparison here isn't to DI, it's to Shiradi. Shiradi doesn't require DCs. In difficult content it's generally better at both killing and controlling than either of the arcane destinies (yes, I'm aware DI is superior at killing in easy content) for an arcane caster, which tells you something is broken (either Shiradi is too good or the others are too bad, or likely both)
5) there is far too much pigeon-holing. A wizard (even a PM, but especially an AM) should be a generalist, forcing them into 1 school is inherently bad.

As it stands this tree is only viable for a DC caster, and since DC casters aren't really viable, that leaves this dead.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head, nothing I've dwelled on long enough to give my own full idea for a revised ED... though I might do that too =)