Feedback: Shadowdancer

[destiny4405]

So I was just trying to stand up and speak for rogues and make some real practical clickies for our own destiny.

rogues around the world thank you.

[Shade]

Hoping someone already told genasi about this, only did a quick glance at thread..

Shrouding Strike is broken for melee. No matter what you select (it allows either melee or ranged selections), it only gives you teh ranged shot version.

So no way of building up shadow charges for melee from what i can see atm.. serious issue.

Why not have it grant both types for either selection to avoid miclicks anyways.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Haven't read wholoe thread, but does any1 know if the shadowdancers negative energy powers (i assume its negative not unholy, since that'd be useless on most mobs?) are effeted by being a pale master? that could be another interesting combo possibility.

[Violith]

Haven't read whole thread, but does any1 know if the shadowdancers negative energy powers (i assume its negative not unholy, since that'd be useless on most mobs?) are effected by being a pale master? that could be another interesting combo possibility.

its not negative energy. and its not technically unholy either (unholy wouldnt work against evil, and negative would heal undead), genasi has stated that when he tested it it worked on evil undead. thus it is more like bane (untyped) then anything. so pale master enhancements probably wouldnt increase it.

if spell power were to increase it (probably wont since its more of a weapon effect then a spell) then it'd be up to potency or impact/force items, but yea. probably wont be increased by spell power. so

[Jaid314]

it is unholy damage. it is not the unholy weapon effect. why is this so hard to understand? it's been explained a few times in different places.

holy smite deals holy damage. it does not, however, function like the holy weapon effect. unholy blight deals unholy damage. it does not work like the unholy weapon effect. in both cases, it is not the type of damage that determines whether something is harmed by it, but rather it is the effect which generates the damage that determines what is harmed. an unholy weapon harms only good aligned targets. a pure evil weapon harms good or neutral targets. unholy blight harms good and neutral targets, but does more to good than to neutral.

the shadowdancer has an ability which deals unholy damage. it harms everything equally, regardless of alignment, but this does not make the damage any less unholy.

edit: and if spellpower improves it, you'd want radiance, which now boosts alignment damage.

[Certon]

I gotta lotta hotbars already ... "exactly how many toggle flips in toto are involved in this procedure?"

+1 for the Mystery Men reference.

[Sidhe_Queen]

it is unholy damage. it is not the unholy weapon effect. why is this so hard to understand? it's been explained a few times in different places.

holy smite deals holy damage. it does not, however, function like the holy weapon effect. unholy blight deals unholy damage. it does not work like the unholy weapon effect. in both cases, it is not the type of damage that determines whether something is harmed by it, but rather it is the effect which generates the damage that determines what is harmed. an unholy weapon harms only good aligned targets. a pure evil weapon harms good or neutral targets. unholy blight harms good and neutral targets, but does more to good than to neutral.

the shadowdancer has an ability which deals unholy damage. it harms everything equally, regardless of alignment, but this does not make the damage any less unholy.

edit: and if spellpower improves it, you'd want radiance, which now boosts alignment damage.

So your Saying that SD Unholy damage would be like the evil of Cthulhu who kills everyone, without bias? Even his own worshipers?

[Dagolar]

An Unholy weapon is imbued with unholy power. This power makes the weapon evil-aligned. Good characters wielding this weapon suffer a negative level. The weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all targets of Good alignment.

Unholy Blight: Unholy power smites your targets. Only Good and Neutral Ⓢ (Not Evil.) creatures are harmed by the spell.

As far as precedence, it breaks it. As far as the rest: Unholy damage was never indicated as NOT being able to harm evil creatures; It just hasn't done so thus far. Consider the other attacks as being directed by the maleficence involved in those attack: Greensteel, which is inherently evil and craves destruction, and Unholy blight, the gift of evil gods.
In this case, it can be considered as repurposing of unholy energy by those that walk in darkness- metaphorically and physically.
Demon Hunter classes in RPGs typically utilize a similar approach.

[Jaid314]

So your Saying that SD Unholy damage would be like the evil of Cthulhu who kills everyone, without bias? Even his own worshipers?

most evil isn't particularly picky about the sort of person it kills.

that is to say, an evil person doesn't look at another person and wonder about their morals to determine if they should kill that person. they look at things like "is it going to benefit me to kill that person" or "can i get away with killing that person" or "is that person more of a problem than killing them will cause". or, sometimes, if they're also completely nuts, "how bored am i"

but yes, this particular unholy damage doesn't particularly care whether it is killing good or evil, it just likes to kill.

[valarx]

I specifically want to ask some questions about Shadow Walk.

In the description of the spell, it states that it 'brings you to the edge of the Material Plane'. It also has a 50% concealment bonus.

I don't use Shadow Walk, so I don't know how that concealment works specifically. Thematically, it seems like it would be nice to see if work more like incorporeal (50% miss chance due to the target sometimes being in-phase with the Material plane, and sometimes not). And specifically, it would be nice to see this apply to TRAPS. If shadow walk gave a 50% miss chance to trap damage, whether that damage was elemental, physical, or magical in nature, it would work as a superb tool for the rogue in bypassing traps to get at the control panel on the other side. I mean, you do have high reflex saves, improved evasion, and various other bonuses to traps, but every little bit helps.

If this effected not only this destiny, but the spell itself, it gives Bards, Wizards, and Sorcs some additional utility to get past traps without getting blasted into the ground. An added perk. It still won't replace a good trapmaster, but if something goes wrong, it may offer a recovery option.

As for the Epic Destiny, how cool would it be for the Shadow Dancer to slip into shadows on one side of a trap and then slip out of shadows on the other side to disable it?

The major problem here is that the Concealment is likely ignored by most traps (as they are AOE) and reworking the system to provide something that allows you to bypass any damage against you (similar to incorporeal) might be a bit of heavy lifting.

[Dagolar]

I specifically want to ask some questions about Shadow Walk.

In the description of the spell, it states that it 'brings you to the edge of the Material Plane'. It also has a 50% concealment bonus.

I don't use Shadow Walk, so I don't know how that concealment works specifically. Thematically, it seems like it would be nice to see if work more like incorporeal (50% miss chance due to the target sometimes being in-phase with the Material plane, and sometimes not). And specifically, it would be nice to see this apply to TRAPS. If shadow walk gave a 50% miss chance to trap damage, whether that damage was elemental, physical, or magical in nature, it would work as a superb tool for the rogue in bypassing traps to get at the control panel on the other side. I mean, you do have high reflex saves, improved evasion, and various other bonuses to traps, but every little bit helps.

If this effected not only this destiny, but the spell itself, it gives Bards, Wizards, and Sorcs some additional utility to get past traps without getting blasted into the ground. An added perk. It still won't replace a good trapmaster, but if something goes wrong, it may offer a recovery option.

As for the Epic Destiny, how cool would it be for the Shadow Dancer to slip into shadows on one side of a trap and then slip out of shadows on the other side to disable it?

The major problem here is that the Concealment is likely ignored by most traps (as they are AOE) and reworking the system to provide something that allows you to bypass any damage against you (similar to incorporeal) might be a bit of heavy lifting.

I don't agree with making concealment affect traps- traps don't care one whit if you're blurred or displaced.
However, Shadow Walk does kind of give the impression of being an incorporeal element [and perhaps ought be changed to such].
And, y'know.. incorporeal seems as if it OUGHT give a bonus against traps.
As you said, it'd definitely help with making Shadow Walk useful for something other than a circumstantial alternative to haste, and for an emergency light for arcanes in Rainbow in the Dark.

[valarx]

I don't agree with making concealment affect traps- traps don't care one whit if you're blurred or displaced.
However, Shadow Walk does kind of give the impression of being an incorporeal element [and perhaps ought be changed to such].
And, y'know.. incorporeal seems as if it OUGHT give a bonus against traps.
As you said, it'd definitely help with making Shadow Walk useful for something other than a circumstantial alternative to haste, and for an emergency light for arcanes in Rainbow in the Dark.

Yes, that was what I was trying to call out from the spell description. It mentions being on the edge of the Material plane which sounds a little more like incorporeal than concealment.

Ninja Spy also gets this ability, so it would be useful to them as well. I forgot to mention that in the previous post.

I definitely think it should only be a chance at ignoring damage (no full immunity) to prevent anyone from using it to bypass large numbers of enemies. And the fact that it brings you out whenever you interact with anything (make andattack, pull a lever, etc.) keeps it from being too overpowered.

The mechanics are probably beyond the current system, but perhaps there is some middle ground that the developers can work out. I'd really like to see more utility abilities for some of the more skill-centric classes.

[Rizzyn]

Hoping someone already told genasi about this, only did a quick glance at thread..

Shrouding Strike is broken for melee. No matter what you select (it allows either melee or ranged selections), it only gives you teh ranged shot version.

So no way of building up shadow charges for melee from what i can see atm.. serious issue.

Why not have it grant both types for either selection to avoid miclicks anyways.

Yes. He said that was a known bug.

I have found that you can get Shadow Charges for Melee, but only if you take Shrouding Strike once. It is bad, because you then lose the pre-req for some other options, but it does work. You can get the 1 point in Improved Invisibility, but the rest of that tree, I think, is blocked by a requirement for level 2 shrouding strike and so on.

I am using the 1st level Shrouding Strike on Lam now, it works, but limits some choices.

[ltlFox]

as was said before shadow wak for rogue is over kill , exp with new levels & more +umd possibilites (it can be easily casted from scrolls)

& we miss one of best HIPS (hide in plain sight) , not ddo one , but one that allow rehide while spoted

to make any suggestion how to make this work reqires knowledge of how it is coded , which i have not
but from side of player :
1 simple rehide
2 rehide with debuff to MS/H for min or so
3 rehide only when LOS broken
4 make active semi-hide ability with long cool down(10mins) limited numbers of use per rest, that wipe you from all agro lists & apply hide possible with debuff to MS/H(-20for instance)
4b for aggro reset prob can be used triger similar to one when we died or hp drops under 0

another cool ability would be fake death , why i would need diplo or smth - just play dead & roll out battle to chest - win ^^
while it could be controled moove with full hp conserve or semisuicide that render us to under 0 with/without auto stabilize check

[MalarKan]

so, i read (almost) the entire thread and i only saw one person mentioning the Shadow Jump ability, and seems like instead there will be "just" a Ddoor spell ability along with Shadowwalk... i warn you, that my weird common sense is talking right now...

i think the Shadowdancer is no a "Shadow Tour Guide" :P im just doubting a "real" shadowdancer would take his friends to a shadow journy hehe. I think it would be "best" a "Ddoor-like ability" instead of a Ddoor spell, with just taking the current player to the entrance of the dungeon. Shadowwalk is something i use a lot on my rogue (the difficult vision? bleh, i just lower the graphic at minimum and problem prety much solved ... sort of)

But... i just... REALLY was looking forward the shadow jump ability, an "AbundantStep-like ability" that would (woohoo! deaming personality now) even teleport you instantly right next to the target enemy you have selected (Cmon, we already have Harry in Shroud teleporting you to random locations and Epic Djins in Epic VoN6 teleporting you to right next HIS position... i know its not easy to program things like that, but im calling to all your awesome skills to gather and bring us the best you can give to make this an awesome game experience!!!

even if my lack of money never allows me to try out the epic destinies, i just would love to see thigns implanted that way

peace and loves!

[threefeetunder]

so, i read (almost) the entire thread and i only saw one person mentioning the Shadow Jump ability, and seems like instead there will be "just" a Ddoor spell ability along with Shadowwalk... i warn you, that my weird common sense is talking right now...

i think the Shadowdancer is no a "Shadow Tour Guide" :P im just doubting a "real" shadowdancer would take his friends to a shadow journy hehe. I think it would be "best" a "Ddoor-like ability" instead of a Ddoor spell, with just taking the current player to the entrance of the dungeon. Shadowwalk is something i use a lot on my rogue (the difficult vision? bleh, i just lower the graphic at minimum and problem prety much solved ... sort of)

But... i just... REALLY was looking forward the shadow jump ability, an "AbundantStep-like ability" that would (woohoo! deaming personality now) even teleport you instantly right next to the target enemy you have selected (Cmon, we already have Harry in Shroud teleporting you to random locations and Epic Djins in Epic VoN6 teleporting you to right next HIS position... i know its not easy to program things like that, but im calling to all your awesome skills to gather and bring us the best you can give to make this an awesome game experience!!!

even if my lack of money never allows me to try out the epic destinies, i just would love to see thigns implanted that way

peace and loves!

That was suggested many times in the closed beta, but I think it was discounted due to technical difficulties (and billions of potential /stuck in wall tickets from it).

[MalarKan]

That was suggested many times in the closed beta, but I think it was discounted due to technical difficulties (and billions of potential /stuck in wall tickets from it).

Awww. Sad me -.- . i guess the abundant step that triggered an automatic invisible animation didnt work (thio the user would see the animation of an invissible moving from one location to another, other players would just see a character disapearing and apearing somewhere else).

Ok, thank you for your kind and polite response good sir!

peace

[danielhrobbins]

If you only rarely use Shadow Walk scrolls, this frees you from having to carry or spend money on them at all (unless you use them a LOT).
Some rogues don't invest in UMD.
Some rogues don't have enough UMD to activate level 6 scrolls reliably.
Some rogues don't have the coin to be buying scrolls a lot.
Some rogues don't want to swap gear whenever they want to use a scroll quickly.
Some rogues feel that it isn't worth using a scroll for getting around a public zone, or for getting through a part of a quest a little bit faster.

Then these people really shouldn't be playing a rogue.

[danielhrobbins]

So, will someone tell me the current status of Assassinate and how it will be affected (if at all) with the new content? Is the "hard to kill" thing still going to be in affect against it? If so ... well, I'll insert that rant later. Just curious. I havent been keeping up, and Ive been trying to read through this thread but got a little confused ...

[threefeetunder]

So, will someone tell me the current status of Assassinate and how it will be affected (if at all) with the new content? Is the "hard to kill" thing still going to be in affect against it? If so ... well, I'll insert that rant later. Just curious. I havent been keeping up, and Ive been trying to read through this thread but got a little confused ...

There's no more 'hard to kill', instead just a slight wail nerf, since that spell was the main issue, so assassinate is not affected.
Also I remember seeing the +2 to assassinate per tier on one of the tier 1 enhancements last i checked.